Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 13209 times)

pin-chaser · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »

The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity?? You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.

tc300 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2010, 04:36:22 PM »

some body needs a hug..... from a guy or girl, which ever you prefer...

slashrr69 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2010, 04:39:41 PM »

part 2 and loving it!!..lol.. pin chaser I hear you dude.. +1M

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2010, 05:19:30 PM »

+ 1

The strength of today's equipment on the synthetic surfaces is rediculous, especially since there has been no change (that I know of) to the pins, decks, or sideboards to counter the extra power that is hitting them. Usually I point out the easy lane conditions, but that is shortsighted on my part. I forget that while I grew up on a bugsprayer pattern, most other places were already putting out a house shot of some sort.

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9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

agroves · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2010, 10:49:52 PM »

I hear ya! But....

We can't go from wide open to sport conditions overnight. This will cause the masses to revolt. What the USBC needs to do is slowly reduce the ratio for "certified lane conditions". What i mean is this:

2011: 6:1 ratio
2012: 5.5:1 ratio
2013: 5:1
2014: 4.5:1
2015: 4:1

Now, I've created a 5 year plan that WILL alter the scoring pace, but do so slowly. This gives people time to adapt. I would leave the ratio at 4:1 for your recreational leagues.

I would also require every association to complete 2 no-notice tapings every year with a minimum of 90 days between tapings.

I don't have a problem with high powered balls. I don't have a problem with kick plates, shallow gutters, etc. But, I do have issues when there isn't a advantage to those who practice regularly, read magazines, seek coaching and work hard at bowling well.

EVERYBODY can find time to practice. No excuses. I work two jobs, 60+ hours a week, I bowl two tourneys a month, practice twice a week, bowl league twice a week, spend time with my kids, mow the lawn, do the dishes, etc. It can be done(particularly if you don't watch much tv..

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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

r534me · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:36:56 AM »

quote:
+ 1

The strength of today's equipment on the synthetic surfaces is rediculous, especially since there has been no change (that I know of) to the pins, decks, or sideboards to counter the extra power that is hitting them. Usually I point out the easy lane conditions, but that is shortsighted on my part. I forget that while I grew up on a bugsprayer pattern, most other places were already putting out a house shot of some sort.

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9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

The laneman could put down a flat pattern and take away the backends. That would make things interesting for the manager of the bowl.

r534me · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:40:37 AM »

quote:
I hear ya! But....

We can't go from wide open to sport conditions overnight. This will cause the masses to revolt. What the USBC needs to do is slowly reduce the ratio for "certified lane conditions". What i mean is this:

2011: 6:1 ratio
2012: 5.5:1 ratio
2013: 5:1
2014: 4.5:1
2015: 4:1

Now, I've created a 5 year plan that WILL alter the scoring pace, but do so slowly. This gives people time to adapt. I would leave the ratio at 4:1 for your recreational leagues.

I would also require every association to complete 2 no-notice tapings every year with a minimum of 90 days between tapings.

I don't have a problem with high powered balls. I don't have a problem with kick plates, shallow gutters, etc. But, I do have issues when there isn't a advantage to those who practice regularly, read magazines, seek coaching and work hard at bowling well.

EVERYBODY can find time to practice. No excuses. I work two jobs, 60+ hours a week, I bowl two tourneys a month, practice twice a week, bowl league twice a week, spend time with my kids, mow the lawn, do the dishes, etc. It can be done(particularly if you don't watch much tv..
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

Good ideas on the transition. I've seen what happens when bowlers encounter a sport shot after bowling house shots all season long. The headpin wasn't knocked down too often on the first ball until the pattern broke down. After that it was mostly the bucket. C2.5, VG, whatever, didn't matter unless one knew how to play the pattern and had a good form and a consistent release.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:05:37 AM »

Agroves, R5534me

I do not agree that a "pattern" change only is the solution. Bowling balls today alter the pattern even is shorter 3 game sets. Work together with your team and you can do it in 6 frames. It used to be that "patterns" dictated the scoring pace and style but bowling balls have overcome the control over oil now. Simply put, there is a time in a 3 game set that ANY pattern could be exploited to produce higher than normal scoring. The view you are taking here is looking from the THS perspective and using that as the scale for scoring. The view and scale should be from the execution perspective and not the scoring potential by maximizing "error room".

I do agree that whatever changes are made need to happen over time if we are to save the existing ogranizational body. But just changing the "pattern" is NOT the only piece to the puzzle. We also have to attack the other issues that play a factor. Let me give you some examples:

1. Pins... If we make pins that are heavier than those that throw the ball slower or balls that burn up earlier wont strike as oftern. So is that good? Well maybe. Maybe is just means we are deciding that we are requiring certian execution requirememnts.
2. Pins #2... Today double voided pins (hollow in the stomach) cause pins to be top heavy and therefore fall easier. Perhaps we go back to solid pins (no voids) this might require my exacting entry angles into the pocket dispite power and might neutralize the advantange of the lane surfice and ball effects.
3. Perhaps shorter patterns that would cause todays balls to burn up by the vast majroty of bowlers and would required manufacturers to "power down" ball technology.
4. Perhaps harder lane surfaces that would produce more skid naturally, even in the backend requiring more exactly execution.
5. Perhaps, deeper requirements on flat gutter depths that would prevent pins from being able to jump out requiring more exacting executing.

The list is endless and not as simple as a 3,4,5,6,7 to 1 pattern changes. We simply do not know in science what any of these changes would do. But in order to restore integrity we have to understand what integrity means in science. Then we have to define the layers of integrity and finally put in place a plan that brings us to it.

The problem up to now is that anything goes. And the idea that it is only one item causing problems and that controlling it will solve all the problems is short sighted.. just like throwing a penny in a wishing well will somehow produce your need.

Here is a fact for what it is worth and for anyone who wants to believe it. I believe it was the 1979 Miami PBA even. I was a mechanic for that center. The pba showd up a couple weeks earlier to examine the house (inspect the lanes, appraoches, pin spotting...etc) and we requried to do some maintenance. During that inspection the lane man set up some test patterns (using a misquito sprayer, pre-saturated towel and a push bar.) After several hours of testing a pattern was developed. We were required to pull new finish on the heads as part of the work. I did this, I worked on the pin spotting problem identified and we put new finish on the apporaches too. Two weeks later the PBA comes in and we are all hands off of the lane conditioning. The lanes are stripped twice succession inspected and stripped a third time (ALL 72 lanes) all by hand (as there was no lane machines avaialable at that time.) Anyway, I had a unique opportunity to follow the lane maintenance throughout the week. And the truth about this week was that the PBA decided that left handers were not going to win so the presaturated towel was soaked on the the left side and dry on the right. Records will show that EARL ANTHONY won that event and was the only lefty to cash in the event. I do not know if Earl knew this. I only bring this up because it goes to prove at least two issues relevant to this topic...
1. Oil was used then to dictate the scoring potential for the types of bowlers who could make money (as it was explained to me, that in order for the PBA to succeed money had to be distributed to all types (styles) of bowlers or else the same bowlers would win and there would not be enough patronage).
2. That when execution is the primary requiste the best bowler wins during this period of time.

However these two facts are not the case any longer. Without the correct ball in your hand execution is fruitless today and bowling should not be about technology as the requiste skill. I am sure that ball manufacturers like this fact by requiring bowlers to have many balls. But the question still remains how do we place the emphasis on execution and away from technology?

pin-chaser · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:34:57 AM »

TC300... Ill consider your hug. Thanks. HAHAHAH

slashrr69,9andaWiggle ... Thanks... alot of thinking has gone into this issue over the years. Alot of topics here on this site have tweaked my stance as I have learned alot. This issue at hand is not unsurrmountable and it will take a logical attack backed by scientific knowledge with leadership by those that can truely inturrept the information from a player perspective. I believe bowling can be and should be an olympic sport. I believe bowling should be respected and drive earnings. No other sport has the general population support as bowling year round. I am not blaming a sigificant attrition rate to the scoring pace albeit, I was one several times, and I personally know several who have quit because of it. None the less bowling had a stigma and that stigma is changing to something worse. From Fat, Beer Drinking and Smoking people who cuss to Fat, Beer Drinking and Smoking peopple who cuss and the sport is too easy to be considered a real sport.

Bowling centers themselves are doing what they can to change the dungy image, elimiating the riff raff and open the centers up to families. The organizational body is attempting to show bowling as a wholesome experience but only to the bowling community. What is needed is an advertising campagin sponsered by the oragizational body to the mass markets. The organizational body working with the bowling centers (BPAA) should be able to convince more bowlers into the centers. This should in turn translate to more league bowlers. But if the issue is still about integrity then the image is not about sport but about having fun. We need for youth to want to be bowlers, like they want to be gymnists, track and field athletes. Parents support and drive these values. In general, parents do not support bowling and thus drive thier children into other avenues.

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:43:43 AM »

quote:
I hear ya! But....

We can't go from wide open to sport conditions overnight. This will cause the masses to revolt. What the USBC needs to do is slowly reduce the ratio for "certified lane conditions". What i mean is this:

2011: 6:1 ratio
2012: 5.5:1 ratio
2013: 5:1
2014: 4.5:1
2015: 4:1

Now, I've created a 5 year plan that WILL alter the scoring pace, but do so slowly. This gives people time to adapt. I would leave the ratio at 4:1 for your recreational leagues.

I would also require every association to complete 2 no-notice tapings every year with a minimum of 90 days between tapings.

I don't have a problem with high powered balls. I don't have a problem with kick plates, shallow gutters, etc. But, I do have issues when there isn't a advantage to those who practice regularly, read magazines, seek coaching and work hard at bowling well.

EVERYBODY can find time to practice. No excuses. I work two jobs, 60+ hours a week, I bowl two tourneys a month, practice twice a week, bowl league twice a week, spend time with my kids, mow the lawn, do the dishes, etc. It can be done(particularly if you don't watch much tv..
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

Lowering the ratios of the patterns is not effective, and you will drive more bowlers out than you keep in doing so.

The current PBAX environment has essentially shown that the majority of bowlers when given the option have absolutely no interest in more challenging lane conditions, and to be quite honest, PBAX is not all that enjoyable. I don't find it enjoyable to throw a great shot, only to have the ball overreact after 3 frames and have a big 4 to show for it when the previous 3 shots were dead flush.

You can never address lane conditions without addressing the current high tech bowling balls. They've taken a lot of the physical skill out of the sport. Bowling is currently out of balance in such a number of extremes from the lane conditions, to the balls, and to the pins.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:44:11 AM »

I like the idea of modifying the pins to move the center of gravity lower on them. This would be the cheapest and easiest to implement over a few years. Basically, stop producing the current pins, and as centers wear out and replace their current pins, in a few years everyone will have the new, harder to topple pins.

Changing the lane hardness would be extremely expensive and not well received by center management. They may gripe about the pins, but if they have nothing else to buy, what are they going to do? Hand-carve their own?

Same with bowling balls. Bowlers will still have today's high powered stuff, but if the only new balls they can buy gradually get weaker (I think clever marketing would hide most of this if the changes are gradual enough, and 90% of bowlers would never know anyway) then the overpowering equipment eventually becomes less of an issue. Granted, for a while the used market would blow up, but eventually it would die down again. And, doubled with the pin changes, the ball restrictions shouldn't have to be as significant.

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9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:44:56 AM »

quote:
+ 1

The strength of today's equipment on the synthetic surfaces is rediculous, especially since there has been no change (that I know of) to the pins, decks, or sideboards to counter the extra power that is hitting them. Usually I point out the easy lane conditions, but that is shortsighted on my part. I forget that while I grew up on a bugsprayer pattern, most other places were already putting out a house shot of some sort.

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

The current synthetic lanes actually have less friction compared to your traditional wood lanes.

baccala8872 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:56:33 AM »

Sometimes I don't know which side of the fence I'm on.

There are days that I'm discouraged when a mixed leaguer stands on 15 all night, hits somewhere on the right of the lane and carries through the face the whole first/second games and then carries the cross hits all through the third game while I'm moving 3 and 2, 4 and 2, 5 and 3 trying to keep my angles and ball speed in my happy zone. There are nights when I get annoyed.

Then there are nights that I'm hitting light, carrying the world while throwing absolutely miserable shots.

But I think that sometimes we're a bunch of stodgy and crotchity curmudgeons. One would have to have their head in the sand if they didn't think that technology has evened the playing field a bit. But.......If the "we" that is represented by the highly skilled 215-220 crowd is that much better, their skill set(s) in theory should enable them to overcome that perceived advantage that technology giveth. I mean, if you're that much better than me, your skill should outlast my "luck" in the long run.

And now there's the average Joe bowler who is probably laughing internally [if not outwardly as I've seen some do] at the premier bowler guy stoning 8-pins on flush hits and shaking his head at my {joe bowler}light swishy brooklyn fold-down-the-5-10 strikes. Trust me, I know you're better. But tonight is my night. There's days/nights like that.

As for me personally, I'm the I-have-no-business-being-the-220+-that-I-am-and-I-know-it guy. Sure, I love technology. It helps me carry. I am deadly accurate. That's all I have. I averaged 180-188 in the burgundy hammer days. I hit my mark every time. Every time. But I just didn't have the technique to generate the power/hand that I needed to make the premier 200 guys shake in their boots.

So what did I do? I befriended the counter guy [had to since I was a 19-year old college kid with a part time paint store job] and busted my hump bowling dozens and dozens of games, trying to refine my unique skill set and get to the point where I could split boards on command. My game improved with technology. So did my carry. I know that I have no business carrying 220. In some leagues, I'm 224-225. But, probably to my discredit, I have no qualms with it. I don't second guess myself. I can't generate area with my rev rate of <250, my speed of 13-14mph, and a low spinner-esque PAP of 4.5 by 0.5 up. I still don't send pins flying all over the place. Sure, I get a messenger once in a while, but me and my teammates openly mock me when it happens. I get that technology helps me, but I won't change my style. I like being accurate. If it means I have to pick up a few more 10-pins than the Caveman Cranker Guy, then so be it. But maybe for some warped reason I'm not too caught up about the whole technology disparity conundrum when someone I'm bowling against says to me, "I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit the same spot every single shot like you do."

That almost makes all the bashing worth it.

Sometimes, I wonder if those who so outwardly and vehemently complain about technology would be happier driving Studebakers and having loads of fun on their Commodore 64's. I mean, you can still drive and do "computer things" on those. I don't know if I totally embrace technology and how "easy" it can make things, but I don't know if I am as vehemently objected to it as others may be.

Technology goes with the terrain. If we weren't developing the technology that we were, would others be stomping their feet saying that the sport we love is going nowhere and is becoming too stagnant for its own good?

Again, just my opinion...........
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If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM

icewall · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2010, 10:11:31 AM »

just do what my house does. just stop stripping the lanes for 2 years straight.

I practiced a couple times on a THS at another house goofed around throwing every ball at a different mark with different hand positions and shot 658 and I missed some easy spares... what a joke.

at the house that doesnt strip the lanes I think the highest Ive shot in 2 months, bowling twice a week has been in the 580's!!!

but seriously, IMO the best way to slow scoring is to flatten the patterns. I doubt bowling owners will ever go for it, but if they did it would be really cool to be able to pick which league you wanted to join that had a softer or harder pattern by how difficult you wanted it.

I know now that would never work. but in an ideal situation it would be great.
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tweener
350 revs
16 mph
low tilt

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2010, 10:41:46 AM »

I already made my opinions on the subject known in the other thread, and there''s far too much to attempt to shoot down here, but I do have a major problem with this whole "integrity" argument.

Essentially, I would like someone to explain to me why everyone is so worried about the absolute scoring pace as opposed to the relative scoring pace. It doesn''t matter if you lay out the easiest THS imaginable or the US Open pattern, over the long run, the best will almost always rise to the top. I don''t see why it matters if the best are at 240 or 195, in a relative sense, the pecking order will remain unchanged.

And for those of you who argue a tougher pattern will reward better shotmaking and make higher scores something to be legitimately proud of, I can tell you that I''ve seen way too many THB''s shoot 250+ on sport patterns by carrying 4 brooklyns, 2 squashers, and missing 2 easy spares. Meantime, the far better player goes 190 clean and misses the pocket once. Changing the shot isn''t going to change anyone''s ability to make good shots, but with the absolute scoring pace lower, it definitely increases the probability that poor shotmakers can beat the better players scratch just by carrying nothing but garbage. Where''s the integrity in all of that?
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

Edited on 1/13/2010 11:42 AM

Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 13209 times)

pin-chaser

Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

tc300

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slashrr69

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9andaWiggle

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agroves

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r534me

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r534me

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pin-chaser

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pin-chaser

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DavidKSNK

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9andaWiggle

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DavidKSNK

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baccala8872

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icewall

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Uncle Crusty

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