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Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT  (Read 12309 times)

pin-chaser

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Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« on: January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »
The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity??  You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.  

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a  league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.
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DavidKSNK

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2010, 02:54:50 PM »
quote:
Seeing as how Kegel produces lane maintenence equipment, im sure their opinions and findings on the subject wouldnt be biased at all, right? They wouldnt make a penny off the situation right?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....


This is why even attempting a discussion with you is pointless because you know so little about anything, and you keep proving this with every reply you've made. If you bothered to learn anything about what Kegel does, you wouldn't even be making yet another misguided post.

stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #107 on: January 22, 2010, 06:58:55 AM »
quote:
quote:
Seeing as how Kegel produces lane maintenence equipment, im sure their opinions and findings on the subject wouldnt be biased at all, right? They wouldnt make a penny off the situation right?
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....


This is why even attempting a discussion with you is pointless because you know so little about anything, and you keep proving this with every reply you've made. If you bothered to learn anything about what Kegel does, you wouldn't even be making yet another misguided post.


Nah having a discussion with someone who knows everthing is pointless. And if Kegel is SOOO highly regarded within the industry then why dont they service the lanes for the PBA tour? Why havent their findings been accepted by the entire industry as fact? Why did USBC have to do their own study if Kegel already did theirs and it was written in stone that their findings were rock solid fact? And before you spout off saying they have been accepted, provide a link with factual proof there, know it all.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....
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DavidKSNK

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2010, 08:03:57 AM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
Seeing as how Kegel produces lane maintenence equipment, im sure their opinions and findings on the subject wouldnt be biased at all, right? They wouldnt make a penny off the situation right?
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....


This is why even attempting a discussion with you is pointless because you know so little about anything, and you keep proving this with every reply you've made. If you bothered to learn anything about what Kegel does, you wouldn't even be making yet another misguided post.


Nah having a discussion with someone who knows everthing is pointless. And if Kegel is SOOO highly regarded within the industry then why dont they service the lanes for the PBA tour? Why havent their findings been accepted by the entire industry as fact? Why did USBC have to do their own study if Kegel already did theirs and it was written in stone that their findings were rock solid fact? And before you spout off saying they have been accepted, provide a link with factual proof there, know it all.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....


Kegel did the lanes for the PBA Tour for quite a few years. When they were bowling on the sport patterns, those were all Kegel's designs. Here's something else to consider...Kegel developed the Sport Bowling program, then sold it to the ABC for $1.

The USBC isn't exactly a shining beacon in the world of bowling. Their ineptness over the years to confront a lot of issues head on led down a a dangerous road that has become extremely difficult to fix. Don't forget, this is the same organization who once said shooting 900 was impossible, and then went from that to sanctioning all these joke 900's. The ABC was also the main reason why the PBA started their own awards program after the fiasco that occurred at Chippewa Lanes in South Bend, Indiana during the summer of 1971. They did their ball studies because there is only so long that you can bury your head to the real problem.

Also, Gary Beck who runs the Teen Masters program is moving towards a standardized ball for the 2011 Teen Masters I believe. It's an effort to cut down on the significant costs involved in having to lug arsenals to tournaments, as well as to eliminate the whole matching up aspect of bowling as much as possible.

Like I said, go to the Kegel website and take a look around, or get in touch with Kegel themselves and ask for the information. I told you how to get the information. Just because you are too lazy to go and find it, doesn't mean it isn't out there. Over the years, I've listened to what a lot of knowledgeable folks in this industry have said with regards to bowling balls and lane conditions...that includes very successful PBA pros past (even some Hall of Famers) and present. All of those who are truly honest, and are not financially dependent on the ball companies will confirm the significant imbalances that currently exist within today's version of bowling. You cannot address lane conditions or bowling balls by themselves. If you address just one, the same problems exist. Both have to be done at the same time. It's amazing what a little effort and a desire to learn will do...all of the information is out there, the people who cry otherwise and say things are just fine, pretty much have their heads buried in the sand. If that's how you approach things, then have fun with that.

DavidKSNK

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2010, 08:10:52 AM »
quote:
Really?  Who's articles written by Kegel coaches and instructors do you read, dav..er punkin?  Slowinksi or Warren?  What do you know about Kegel machines?  So far you really haven't proven you know a damn thing about bowling.  You just like to b$tch about it.  See, I have you figured out.  You haven't said it yet, but you think most of the people here are "house hacks". Even when some of us tell you we don't bowl on THS's and have no desire to.  Are you better than a "house hack" SNK?  Or are you a "tourney hack".  We all know those guys.  Guys that go to tourneys, don't cash, then come back and invariably bore everybody on their league team with comments like:
"Man, the lane guy really had it in for lefties"
"Wow, those lanes were like the Sahara"
"Wow, those lanes were like the Exxon Valdeze"
"Damn, I took twelve balls with me but I left the one that had the surface I needed at home"
"I couldn't believe the idiots I crossed with.  They kept on burning up my shot"
On and on with excuse after excuse why he didn't cash.  Is that what you are, DavidSNK?  Are you a "tourney hack", a guy who puts himself on a pedestal that he himself built to bolster his own ego by creating an artificial superiority?  Please list the houses you bowl in regularly and the names of the leagues you bowl in.  Please keep your name anonymous.  I sure as hell don't want to actually know you, but I will call those houses and find out what shot they put out for your leagues.  Should be interesting.  C'mon, hotshot, surely you can do that and show to us you're not as full of sh$t as we believe you are?


What I've said on here seems to bother you so much.

I love the immature behavior you continually display.

Keep going, it's kind of funny to be honest with you.

pin-chaser

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2010, 09:44:26 AM »
This bantering goes back to my original statement that just because the majority of bowlers today believe one thing, that technology today is ok (for a various set of reason) does not make that belief true. Just like a groups of sailors get drunk and get tattoos forces everyone on the ship to get one.

As I stated, it is not just balls and it is not just patterns. The scoring pace is a product of taking advantage of all things, type of oil, lane surface, pins, ball surface, ball cores...etc.

Perhaps another look at the question should be: Should the ability to put the puzzle together (having the correct ball in your hand) that takes the most advantage of the condition at that momnet be greater than the skill required to execute bowling shots?

Look at this past weeked PBA as an example. Is there any question that Machuga phyiscally showed his talent in the title match and out bowled his opponent? I I remember his oppoent through 3 pocket shots and struck on them to win... where as Machuga hits the pocket every frame and does not carry. So who bowled better? I know who scored better, but I would argue that Machuga picks a different ball and wins the title. And this is typical in a one game match, that technology plays the key role in who wins or looses. And I contend that should not be the case. It should be more about the skill and not the technology.

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DavidKSNK

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2010, 10:29:13 AM »
quote:
This bantering goes back to my original statement that just because the majority of bowlers today believe one thing, that technology today is ok (for a various set of reason) does not make that belief true. Just like a groups of sailors get drunk and get tattoos forces everyone on the ship to get one.

As I stated, it is not just balls and it is not just patterns. The scoring pace is a product of taking advantage of all things, type of oil, lane surface, pins, ball surface, ball cores...etc.

Perhaps another look at the question should be: Should the ability to put the puzzle together (having the correct ball in your hand) that takes the most advantage of the condition at that momnet be greater than the skill required to execute bowling shots?

Look at this past weeked PBA as an example. Is there any question that Machuga phyiscally showed his talent in the title match and out bowled his opponent? I I remember his oppoent through 3 pocket shots and struck on them to win... where as Machuga hits the pocket every frame and does not carry. So who bowled better? I know who scored better, but I would argue that Machuga picks a different ball and wins the title. And this is typical in a one game match, that technology plays the key role in who wins or looses. And I contend that should not be the case. It should be more about the skill and not the technology.




Where technology should have benefited bowling the most was in lane maintenance procedures, which it has. The ability to replicate shots has become much, much easier as opposed to the old days. Plus the ability to lay down a wide variety of lane conditions has been much more simplified. My issues have more to do with the current oil volumes, as well as the effort to mask the steroid ball problem by trying to make environments at times too difficult for the average bowler. PBAX does not appeal to your average bowlers because it's simply too extreme of a change to going from your average THS environment, to that of PBAX or even sport conditions. Plus throwing equipment in PBAX that was specifically drilled for THS conditions makes thing more difficult.

stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2010, 10:50:28 AM »

Perhaps another look at the question should be: Should the ability to put the puzzle together (having the correct ball in your hand) that takes the most advantage of the condition at that momnet be greater than the skill required to execute bowling shots?

Look at this past weeked PBA as an example. Is there any question that Machuga phyiscally showed his talent in the title match and out bowled his opponent? I I remember his oppoent through 3 pocket shots and struck on them to win... where as Machuga hits the pocket every frame and does not carry. So who bowled better? I know who scored better, but I would argue that Machuga picks a different ball and wins the title. And this is typical in a one game match, that technology plays the key role in who wins or looses. And I contend that should not be the case. It should be more about the skill and not the technology.

Machuga threw it great ill agree. But just because his "style" looks better then LaCaze doesnt mean he should win. I mean come on, LaCaze had one frame wher he got a 7 count spare.  Give LaCaze credit, he threw 3 of the best shots of the match when it mattered most to put pressure on Machuga. Machuga had the pressure put on him and while he hit the pocket ill bet something he did in his approach caused him not to carry when he needed it. Ive heard stories of the great Bill Taylor calling pin leaves of the great pros of the past based on the situation and watching their swing. Just because someone has a better looking game doesnt mean he is the better bowler. If that were the case David Ozio and Brian Voss would be the all time title holders. While Machuga is a great bowler no doubt, i think you are discrediting a guy who threw three of the best shots of his life to win a tournament, because his game isnt as "pretty" as Machuga. Last time i checked there werent any style points in bowling.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/22/2010 11:57 AM
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stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2010, 11:19:34 AM »
Perhaps another look at the question should be: Should the ability to put the puzzle together (having the correct ball in your hand) that takes the most advantage of the condition at that momnet be greater than the skill required to execute bowling shots?

I havent been bowling as long as you pin-chaser, i started when i was 11, i'll be 33 this year. The question you ask has two variables, the first one being having the correct ball in your hand, the second is the skill required to execute.

My argument is in todays game they are equal. You can have the right ball in your hand all day long, but you still have to play the correct part of the lane, and you still have to hit what you look at, even more so today with the crazy angles we are forced to play. When i first learned bowling, i was taught how to play down and in, with urethane equipment. It was all about hitting your mark, keeping the ball on a straight path to the pocket. All i had to do was hit my target +/- a few boards and i knew i was in the pocket.

Fast forward to today, and now i have to worry about three targets on the lane, my setdown point, my sight target, and my breakpoint. I can be off a little on one of the three at one given time, and i can still hit the pocket, if im off on two of the three its usually a big split.

Both go hand in hand is what im saying, i can have the correct ball all day long, but if im not making good shots and hitting the pocket im still gonna lose to the guy who is throwing it better than me, and playing the lanes correctly.

I was taught by some of the best bowlers in my area when i was coming up, and i remember hearing stories about how Urethane balls were gonna be the end of bowling. Urethane balls raised scores vs. Plastic balls, too. Bowling survived then. Plastic balls raised scoring vs. Hard Rubber balls, and Bowling survived. Ive heard the sky is falling for 22 years now, it hasnt hit me in the head yet.


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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....
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Steven

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2010, 02:17:58 PM »
quote:
Come on, SNK, you're really disappointing all of your fans on here. Just tell us what houses you bowl in and what leagues. Is that really so hard to do, or are you just going to ducking and evading? It's not often that we get bowling royalty on here such as yourself, we want to know everything about such a vastly superior bowler.  


CRD, give it a rest. If you changed your name to 'letsbowl4quarters' just to prove you could be more ignorant and offensive than the lows you reached before, then you achieved you goal.

There is no 'we' here. Only you in continuing this witch hunt against SNK. He offered some insights that I don't necessarily agree with in total, but he made a good case for his position. That's all you can ask of anyone here.

If only you could evolve to do the same.....

wooddaddy

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2010, 02:23:35 PM »
"tored"?  what's that