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Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT  (Read 12310 times)

pin-chaser

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Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« on: January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »
The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity??  You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.  

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a  league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.
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9andaWiggle

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2010, 09:53:35 AM »
quote:
Ironically out of all the people I have bowled with and against I have never heard anyone boast that they were good enough to bowl against the pros.  I do know the proshop operator at one of the centers has bowled in and even won a regional title.

Mark

quote:
As for the golf analogy, I'd love to find a set of hickory shafted clubs and real wood heads to play with.  And I'm not anywhere near being a good, or even decent, golfer.

One thing to keep in mind... I don't think anyone who has ever played golf would look at Tiger, Mickelson, or any of the others on TV and think they were just as good as those guys (unless they were actually on tour with them).  Yet I've heard it more often than I can count at the bowling alley "What's so great about these guys on TV?  They don't shoot any better than I do."

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Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about the 200+ crowd.  This is coming from 170-180 avg bowlers, you know, the "average" group in the game.  They know they cannot compete, but part of the demise of the PBA, IMO, is that these average bowlers are unimpressed, or do not feel compelled to be interested in the Pro's becuase they can see the same RESULTS week in and week out in league.  If you see cousin Bob roll 300/800 every week, why tune in to watch a "PRO" shoot 2-teens?  They may know the Pro's are rolling on something different, but they don't know what that difference is so they cannot properly respect the talent level of the Professional bowler.  They just see the scores and figure, "Meh.  I can see better than that shot in league Friday."

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txbowler

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »
I don't see that here in the DFW area or Texas.

r534me

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 11:37:26 AM »
Quote

Exactly. So if everything averages out in the end, who cares what the absolute scoring pace is? It will always be relative, and that should be enough.
Quote


We should care because we have a maximum achievable score.  

Technology can't be stopped and I certainly did not suggest it.  I don't think it can be curbed.  And the more I think about it the more this debate is going nowhere.  

One thing I will say is that sooner or later bowling as a sport will die and it won't be from high scores or techonlogy.  It will be from the lack of participation at the junior level.  New bowlers have to replace old bowlers.  In my city we have 800k people and only there are a total of 24 lanes in the entire city.  In fact, they are trying to close one of the houses and if that happens there will only be 12 lanes.   I don't think this is an anomaly either.  It's a long term trend nationwide and the bowling alleys closing each year provides ample evidence of this.

r534me

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 11:40:40 AM »
quote:
As for the golf analogy, I'd love to find a set of hickory shafted clubs and real wood heads to play with.  And I'm not anywhere near being a good, or even decent, golfer.

One thing to keep in mind... I don't think anyone who has ever played golf would look at Tiger, Mickelson, or any of the others on TV and think they were just as good as those guys (unless they were actually on tour with them).  Yet I've heard it more often than I can count at the bowling alley "What's so great about these guys on TV?  They don't shoot any better than I do."

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+1

r534me

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2010, 11:47:33 AM »
quote:
I don't see that here in the DFW area or Texas.


Some parts of the country bowling haave more knowledgable bowlers.  I bet you guys even have discounts fo lineage for league bowlers.  The 12 lane house we used to bowl at didn't.  It was 5.00 a game for somewhat poorly maintain lanes.  Your average went down 20-30 pins compared to other houses and no one ever accused you of being a sandbagger.  They just said, oh you bowl at XZY..

r534me

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2010, 12:04:39 PM »
quote:
Just curious.

How many have ever witnessed a PBA stop?  I did before it was the same set patterns and 64 bowlers but I assume it is pretty close to the same now as it was 10 years ago.  These bowlers are REALLY REALLY good.  They all hit the pocket 99% of the time. Back then, it was spares to cash and carry to make the top 24.

Now, it's all a matter of carry.

People talk about taking an arsenal to tournaments now.  

Kelly Kaufman drilled 35 balls for a PBA stop in Kansas in the 80's.  I know because I worked in the pro shop that he gave them to, to be plugged and redrilled for the youth bowlers.

The pros did it back then too.  Your local guys may not have, but the PBA guys did.

You do what it takes to win on the conditions given.  That's what most of us do.



I watched a couple of tour stops back in the early 90's and the abc masters in reno.  The pros just don't miss.  

Kelly Kaufman was a pro in the urethane era.  Think further back in bowling's heyday with Anthony, Roth, Holman, etc.  There were only so many things you could do to a yellow dot or a magnum 6.  I was only a kid then but I am sure they didn't have an 18 wheeler following them around the country just for the purpose of carrying their bowling balls.  Well, maybe they did since the rabbit squad participants likely equal the number of total participants in today's tournaments.  Anyone from that era recall how many ball the pros used?

Reflecting back I think league bowlers are responding to what they are given and if they given easy shots so be it.   Let's not blame the bowlers but the proprietors and the ABC(USBC) for leting things get out of hand.

ksucat

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2010, 12:04:52 PM »
How many play tic-tac-toe competitively?  It's a great game until you develop the simple skills to master it.  Bowling isn't this bad, but the competitive sport is dying.  Why not challenge the bowler so he doesn't feel like he's good enough after a couple years?
 
The successfull PBA guys are constantly learning and working hard to get better at their craft.  I'll bet they enjoy when their successful too.  Many on here have stated that they enjoyed practicing back in old days and took pride in well-earned results.  How many of us get bored and don't work on our game because of the lack of reward?  I am one of those that averages 25 pins more now with minimal effort than I did back in my younger days when I worked my tail off.  
 
We can all agree that when given the choice, most bowlers choose the easiest lanes for them.  That's why we need our governing body to dictate how easy lanes can be.  Put some standards back in the game.  I'm happy to pay my sanction fees every year, but I want something for my money.  Maybe we should try to please the more competitive bowlers instead of the person who bowls for a social outing.  In the early days, establishing things we take for granted such as lane dimensions were a task.  There's just new standards to set now.

The balls and pins are already out and we can't make them illegal now.  I'd like to see the new super-hooking balls become useless by putting out much less oil.  This would make it much tougher to alter the shot because there simply isn't a puddle of oil to manipulate.  Kind of hard to create 50:1 ratios if there's not that much oil to begin with.  Try to bowl on a pattern with only 10 units of oil and see what your super-hook ball does.  



LuckyLefty

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 12:19:35 PM »
Tc300 has it correct.

High scoring is FUN!  Bowlers are good!
Technology is great!

Want to see scores go down and someone not devote their life to the sport to have a good time!

Easy....lengthen the lanes 5 feet and put out the same nice crown patterns.

I bowled in an area in the yellow dot era where bowlers were bowling right near 240 for averages on the patterns of the day!  Looked easy then too!

I bowled in the 1960s with rubber balls with heavy pins and it looked easy then too!  To hit the pocket.  Yes the balls wouldn't carry well because of the shallow entry angle but the game was EASY!  To hit the pocket.

I was averaging 170 as an 11 year old righty..with a conventional ball....
9, 9, 9, 9, X, X, 9...

EASY to hit the pocket!

NOW some days it is tough to hit the pocket ....Easy to carry!

Easy to fix.  You want to see 220 as top average lenghten lanes 10 feet.  Want to see 230 as top average go 5 feet.  In the meantime enjoy it!

I don't know a single 240 bowler who doesn't throw the ball beautifully!
Either strong or accurate...or both!

Great game.

Fewer people with 9 to 5 jobs to enjoy it!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2010, 12:21:16 PM »
Try to bowl on a pattern with only 10 units of oil and see what your super-hook ball does.

This will never happen because too much money is invested by ALL the major ball companies. Is taking revenue away from Ball manufacturers really gonna make the sport progress?

ABC tried regulating scores back in the urethane days with short oil. It basically took away or locked out certain styles of bowlers. That cant happen today, look at how many youth bowlers have learned the crank it up game. Tell them they have to learn to kill the revs, or block them out like back in the 80's and it WILL kill the sport. Participation will fall to irreversible levels. Im all for regulation of the sport as a whole, so long as its done equally so that it doesnt put financial strain on bowlers, centers too.

This thread is alot like the HIGH TECH balls thread over on the old PBA.com site. Alot of great ideas being passed around, but no definite starting point defined. Whatever changes that are to be made, they need to be fair across the board. I feel like the main problem is the lane technology ie- pins, pin decks, pin spotters, lane maintenence hasnt progressed at the rate the balls have. I also feel like the USBC should have a standardized lane maintenence program that ALL USBC certified leagues/centers must adhere too.

The only problem with that is the fear that some centers will end their association with USBC and team up with the  BPAA to form their own sanctioning body. This is already being seen in my home state, where centers are breaking away and forming their own Proprietors State tournament, as opposed to the one sanctioned by the NC State Bowling Association.
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pin-chaser

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2010, 12:45:39 PM »
I want to say thank you to all that have responded, those who are newer to bowling, those that have been bowling longer, those with polar opiions, those with constructive criticism and everyone. It is sure nice to have a debate with honesty and no screaming. Over the years here I have seen serious post get destroyed.

With this said, this thread proves my point. Everyone has an opinion and rightfully so. No questions. But it is this indecision that is hurting our "sport" the most. We need real leadership to drive a clear and defined path somewhere. It will not happened without offending some for sure. But the "sport" needs defending more than the bowlers need opinions. The status quo has only made a mockery of the sport ( I will cite examples in the next few replies to specific posts).

From my vantage point I will say again, that I do not care what it takes to be considered a"good", "decent", "great" or "hobbiest" bowler. All I care is that it is clearly defined and consistantly upheld. None of which is being defined today other than USBC proclaiming, more friction creates higher scores and faster ball speeds combined with more revolutions increase averages. That is a far cry from understanding that with technology today (lane surface, ball covers, cores and layouts, pins ...etc) can produce 5+ boards of area, with 2mph of speed difference and create 6,7,8 or more degrees of entry angle. A 300 game of the 50's should be equivalent to a 300 game today in the requirement of skill (whatever the skill). That is my point.
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r534me

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2010, 12:49:11 PM »
You must be referring to the SOB..that POS.

PBA.com has a similar thread by "when bowling was rivered".  It's been debated forever.  I think there is a thread about the demise of scratch bowing that began in 2003 and still has some current posts.  Not sure which form it's in.  It might be in thw West Region.

stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2010, 01:10:01 PM »
quote:
You must be referring to the SOB..that POS.

PBA.com has a similar thread by "when bowling was rivered".  It's been debated forever.  I think there is a thread about the demise of scratch bowing that began in 2003 and still has some current posts.  Not sure which form it's in.  It might be in thw West Region.


Well i read that one too, but i was refering to the thread started by Brian Voss, it gave his insight into how resin balls changed the PBA tour, and trickled down to tournaments and leagues.

BWR, he just beats a dead horse every day. Like i have said in his threads, about the only thing us bolwers can do is continue to support bowling at every level, participate in leagues, tournaments at the local, state and national levels. Encourage new bowlers every chance you get. If somebody bowls a great set, game, encourage them, give em a pat on the back. Theres way too much jealously and envy in our game these days, is it really that hard to congratulate somebody these days for their bowling accomplishments?  And most importantly support Youth bowling at any possible way, they are our future. Sitting behind a computer screen preaching to the choir isnt getting anything accomplished.
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pin-chaser

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2010, 01:14:54 PM »
Uncle Crusty

   Your point is well taken the scoring pace of 195 or 230 really does not matter. I never meant to imply that any value means integrity. However, lets look at this:

   The Budweisers 3858 in 1958: Carter led off and shot 754 with games of 266, 253, and 235. Bluth, in the No. 2 position, was our highest scorer with 834, thanks to games of 267, 267, and 300. Patterson was No. 3 and rolled a 736 with games of 246, 222, and 268. Hennessey followed in the fourth position and scored 759 with games of 228, 300, and 231. Weber 775 thanks to a near triplicate: 258, 258, and 259. Of a possible 180 strikes, we had 138--43 in the first game, 50 in the second game, and 45 in the third game.

    Todays bowlers will look at those numbers and think nothing much about it... nothing really spectacular based on the scoring pace today. But those of us who know bowling prior to technology will look at those numbers and be amazed. All 5 of those bowlers are synonimous with the top 50 best bowlers of the century. Today, many association tournaments approach that score every year. That score has been beat several times at the National level. How can it be said that the scoring pace does not matter when records are beat by bowlers of lesser skills reqularly?

      All, I am saying, is that if you put 5 of the best bowlers in the world today on the same team, with todays technology there is a significant chance they would beat that score with some reqularity while at that time it was a once in a 90 year event. So does this not speak to the fact that there has been a degradation in intergirty?

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stopncrank

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2010, 01:34:57 PM »


      All, I am saying, is that if you put 5 of the best bowlers in the world today on the same team, with todays technology there is a significant chance they would beat that score with some reqularity while at that time it was a once in a 90 year event. So does this not speak to the fact that there has been a degradation in intergirty?

[/quote]

Pin, one thing i will add to this is that if your statement is correct-and im not doubting it at all, then integrity has been lost in most all major sports then.

As technology advances, rules change and records are broken. What seems like an unapproachable record falls almost all the time. Just as your argument about taking bowlers of today and bowl with equipment of yesterday and vice-versa, the same can be argued for almost all major sports.

Take baseball for instance. I remember ESPN doing a piece on Babe Ruth's bat in Cooperstown. Louisville Slugger was commishioned to replicate Babe's bat. Copies were made and sent to several Major League teams at the time to let current stars of today see what they could do with it. To start, the diameter of the barrell of the bat was so out of proportion with the handle, it made it nearly impossible for the majority of players to even get around with any consistency. Tony Gwinn, Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Wade Boggs to name a few all took cuts with it, and almost all players gained even more respect for Babe. All of the players said it would take tremendous forearm strength to generate enough power to hit the ball out of modern stadiums, much less the larger stadiums of Babe's era.

I guess what im saying is you could do this same thing for every sport and the results would more than likely be the same. Golfers with 350+ drives were unheard of in Jack Nicklaus's day. Nowdays we dont think twice about hearing drives approach 400 yards. YOu think they could do it with drivers like Jack used? Where's the debate about technology in golf? Now where near what it is in bowling.

Its difficult because out of all sports, i cant think of another where a great many people want technology to regress instead of progress besides bowling.
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txbowler

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Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2010, 01:48:19 PM »
Pin-Chaser,

You make a valid point.

In bowling, the difference between the true skilled bowlers and the less skilled was already a small value in terms of score.  Always has been.  And todays THS and reactive balls have blurred that line even more where some bowlers may believe that belong in the elite class when they do not.  

But that has always been bowling.  

Bowling is the one sport that allows practically anyone willing to learn the game the "opportunity" to compete against the best in the world.  I doubt I will ever have the opportunity to tee it up against Tiger, or Phil, or Vijay, or to hit a baseball thrown by Josh Beckett, or to be tackled by Demarcus Ware.  But I have had the opportunity to have my butt kicked by Chris Barnes, Dino Castillo, and Bob Benoit several times.  For that, I am ever grateful.