Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 12308 times)

pin-chaser · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »

The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity?? You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #61 on:** January 14, 2010, 01:52:10 PM »

All I know, pin-chaser, is that the sooner everyone here realizes I'm a genius and that my ideas are infallable, the sooner we'll be able to join together as bowlers with a common interest and a common direction in which we can present the USBC with a plan and force them by sheer numbers to cave in to my demands. I mean, er, um, our concerns and wishes.

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

agroves · « **Reply #62 on:** January 14, 2010, 07:25:48 PM »

quote:
The Budweisers 3858 in 1958: Carter led off and shot 754 with games of 266, 253, and 235. Bluth, in the No. 2 position, was our highest scorer with 834, thanks to games of 267, 267, and 300. Patterson was No. 3 and rolled a 736 with games of 246, 222, and 268. Hennessey followed in the fourth position and scored 759 with games of 228, 300, and 231. Weber 775 thanks to a near triplicate: 258, 258, and 259. Of a possible 180 strikes, we had 138--43 in the first game, 50 in the second game, and 45 in the third game.

You can't harp about easy lane conditions and then bring this up. I'll agree that carrying that many strikes with a "low tech" ball, is amazing. However, you won't convince me the lane conditions were brutal.

I know guys that shot big sets in the 60s. They all tell me that averaging 210 on blocked out conditions wasn't that uncommon.

Question to all you "get rid of technology guys and put out 10 units guys"? Why do you continue to downplay that aspect of the modern game??? When will you recognize that to compete you must be more educated, smarter, versatile(ya I said it!)?

It seems like you guys want to go back to wooden balls and lacquer lanes?!

The solution is so simple, reign in lane condition RATIOS and set/enforce them. Set some limits on bowling ball porousity, rg, diffs, etc. If the equipment falls under those rules and the lane condition ratios are less, integrity will return. The good will still be good and the bad will still be bad.

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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com

txbowler · « **Reply #63 on:** January 14, 2010, 09:51:30 PM »

Just a quick true story. 2 years ago, I'm playing with my normal golf foresome and one guy brings a "friend". Turns out this friend was on the Nationwide (nike) tour 3 years before. We're playing our local course. The friend shoots 61. Never missed a green.

That's the problem when comparing golf vs bowling.

A good scratch bowler on his best day might beat a top 10 PBA bowler. That's bowling.

A good golfer on his best day probably can't come within 10 strokes of the top 100 PGA golfers on a PGA course.

But that is why I love bowling. Everyone has a chance to shoe up and compete.

r534me · « **Reply #64 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:10:28 PM »

quote:
quote:
You must be referring to the SOB..that POS.

PBA.com has a similar thread by "when bowling was rivered". It's been debated forever. I think there is a thread about the demise of scratch bowing that began in 2003 and still has some current posts. Not sure which form it's in. It might be in thw West Region.

Well i read that one too, but i was refering to the thread started by Brian Voss, it gave his insight into how resin balls changed the PBA tour, and trickled down to tournaments and leagues.

BWR, he just beats a dead horse every day. Like i have said in his threads, about the only thing us bolwers can do is continue to support bowling at every level, participate in leagues, tournaments at the local, state and national levels. Encourage new bowlers every chance you get. If somebody bowls a great set, game, encourage them, give em a pat on the back. Theres way too much jealously and envy in our game these days, is it really that hard to congratulate somebody these days for their bowling accomplishments? And most importantly support Youth bowling at any possible way, they are our future. Sitting behind a computer screen preaching to the choir isnt getting anything accomplished.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

I agree that youth bowling has to be supported and as I stated in another post, bowling will eventually die and be irrelevant without fresh blood. At least one house here doesn't have a juniors program. They will just depend on the old guard living forever. I remember when I was growing up we had the YBA and the house used to charge a quarter a game to bowl. These were the days. Of course, after bowling we could play pinball too.

r534me · « **Reply #65 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:18:57 PM »

quote:
quote:
You must be referring to the SOB..that POS.

PBA.com has a similar thread by "when bowling was rivered". It's been debated forever. I think there is a thread about the demise of scratch bowing that began in 2003 and still has some current posts. Not sure which form it's in. It might be in thw West Region.

Well i read that one too, but i was refering to the thread started by Brian Voss, it gave his insight into how resin balls changed the PBA tour, and trickled down to tournaments and leagues.

BWR, he just beats a dead horse every day. Like i have said in his threads, about the only thing us bolwers can do is continue to support bowling at every level, participate in leagues, tournaments at the local, state and national levels. Encourage new bowlers every chance you get. If somebody bowls a great set, game, encourage them, give em a pat on the back. Theres way too much jealously and envy in our game these days, is it really that hard to congratulate somebody these days for their bowling accomplishments? And most importantly support Youth bowling at any possible way, they are our future. Sitting behind a computer screen preaching to the choir isnt getting anything accomplished.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Wasn't Voss really pissed about his line being torn up by Loeschter during warmups during a TV event? On PBA dot com it was posted that during the WSOB Smallwood did the same thing to Duke with a sanded Jigsaw and force Duke to play away from the 1-2-3 board. Smallwood barely won that much and I believe he made the show that weeki.

Not sure it's relevant to the topic but it's interesting how technology giveth and taketh away depending how is tossing the hand grenades.

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #66 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:08:02 AM »

quote:
Try to bowl on a pattern with only 10 units of oil and see what your super-hook ball does.

This will never happen because too much money is invested by ALL the major ball companies. Is taking revenue away from Ball manufacturers really gonna make the sport progress?

[/red]

The ball companies last year alone sold 365,000 less units than they did the year before...

stopncrank · « **Reply #67 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:34:53 AM »

quote:
quote:
Try to bowl on a pattern with only 10 units of oil and see what your super-hook ball does.

This will never happen because too much money is invested by ALL the major ball companies. Is taking revenue away from Ball manufacturers really gonna make the sport progress?

[/red]

The ball companies last year alone sold 365,000 less units than they did the year before...

Sales is directly related to the economy, so production would be down because demand wasnt as high right? If bowlers dont have money in their pockets to buy balls, in return the manufacturers arent gonna meet as much demand as years past. Im sure if the demand were there like in previous years, the ball companies would be ready to meet it. If you change the shot to short oil, guess what? The ball companies will produce balls to combat THAT condition too. Its a vicious cycle unfortunately, and i feel like if you take away that money from not just Ball companies themselves, it will take away from the game as a whole ie= Tell Storm they cant make Virtual Gravity's any more, so they lose money from not selling these balls, then in turn with that loss of revenue Storm can no longer sponsor tournaments, in return the sport is at a loss, not just the company.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #68 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:53:11 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
Try to bowl on a pattern with only 10 units of oil and see what your super-hook ball does.

This will never happen because too much money is invested by ALL the major ball companies. Is taking revenue away from Ball manufacturers really gonna make the sport progress?

The ball companies last year alone sold 365,000 less units than they did the year before...

Sales is directly related to the economy, so production would be down because demand wasnt as high right? If bowlers dont have money in their pockets to buy balls, in return the manufacturers arent gonna meet as much demand as years past. Im sure if the demand were there like in previous years, the ball companies would be ready to meet it. If you change the shot to short oil, guess what? The ball companies will produce balls to combat THAT condition too. Its a vicious cycle unfortunately, and i feel like if you take away that money from not just Ball companies themselves, it will take away from the game as a whole ie= Tell Storm they cant make Virtual Gravity's any more, so they lose money from not selling these balls, then in turn with that loss of revenue Storm can no longer sponsor tournaments, in return the sport is at a loss, not just the company.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....[/red]

This is why I've always advocated addressing the equipment only at the high levels of the sport...recreational leagues are in no way even close to what the sport of bowling is supposed to be. If people want to throw their steroid equipment at those levels, let them. The pros should not be using this equipment, and it also drives away a lot of people from participating at those levels because of the costs involved, as well as the unnecessary complexity that has been added to bowling at those levels.

stopncrank · « **Reply #69 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:17:15 AM »

If you take the technology away from the pros, then the scoring desparity between Professionals and non-professionals becomes that much greater, i would think. We already have issues with Joe Bowler seeing the pros shot 180 on tv and think, "hey i bowl better than them in my league on tuesdays." Taking those balls away from professionals while letting the am''s continue to use them will only promote that sort of thinking. What will taking steroid balls away from pros acheive when they already lack respect from the majority of people who tune in to watch them on sunday''s?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/15/2010 11:19 AM

r534me · « **Reply #70 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:29:58 AM »

For some reason, I remember the PBA stated on their webpage why the exempt field was good, etc. and they used someone''s score from the U.S. Open as their proof. The thing is, isn''t the U.S. Open an open event? Because the field in most tournaments is severely impacted compared to past years because of the exempt field we don''t see the differences between AM and Pro averages very often. I remember that was one thing Nelson Burton always brought up in the telecasts and I assume it was to illustrate the differences in skill levels.

http://news.pba.com/post/2009/12/30/JASON-THOMAS-Top-10-PBA-Stories-of-the-Decade.aspx

"Since the change was made, all standard PBA events now consist of a 64-player field (each receiving a guaranteed check) made up mostly of exempt touring players, and a handful of qualifiers and/or special invitees. While some detractors saw this as "taking away a lot of players'' dreams" others saw it as preventing a lot of yay-hoos (like two MIT guys who averaged 130 in the U.S. Open in the early part of the decade) from mucking up the quality level of the competition. Plus now, to make it on Tour as an exempt player actually means you''ve achieved something (just ask guys like Tom Smallwood and Ryan Ciminelli). Or as the colorful ex-PBA CEO Miller once famously said, "If you don''t like it, don''t bowl.""

Edited on 1/15/2010 11:36 AM

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #71 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:43:46 AM »

quote:
If you take the technology away from the pros, then the scoring desparity between Professionals and non-professionals becomes that much greater, i would think. We already have issues with Joe Bowler seeing the pros shot 180 on tv and think, "hey i bowl better than them in my league on tuesdays." Taking those balls away from professionals while letting the am''s continue to use them will only promote that sort of thinking. What will taking steroid balls away from pros acheive when they already lack respect from the majority of people who tune in to watch them on sunday''s?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/15/2010 11:19 AM

No the disparity doesn't become greater. Most people know the pros are better than they are, big deal a small clueless minority thinks otherwise, it's irrelevant.

Only 33% of the PBA's viewership is even comprised of bowlers as it is. The bulk of those watching the PBA are not bowlers at all.

What I am talking about has to do with making the sport more cost efficient, which would help to increase participation. Sorry, most people have no interest in lugging 10-15 balls to a tournament. There is an inherent lack of fairness with the dependency on matching up in today's bowling environment. That is not appealing to people, nor does it cause bowlers to want to move up to the next level.

r534me · « **Reply #72 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:58:04 AM »

Around here there aren''t that many people that go to tournaments. Most of the league bowlers bring two or three balls at the most. I think only competitve bowlers will load up on balls and around here that''s less than the 33% of the bowlers(using your numbers) that watch the PBA on TV.

I don''t think restricting balls for the pros is the answer. They need the best equipment and the ball makers need their equipment showcased in a professonal venue. I''ve watched a lot of youtube videos and every ball profiled is great. I want to see how they react in the hands of pro in a strictly controlled environment.

The answer is not simple because every part of puzzle is intertwined.

edit: I forgot about cost...Around here the price of bowling is very high even for the league bowler unless you can get a daytime or evening special. Who can afford to practice these days?

Edited on 1/15/2010 12:02 PM

stopncrank · « **Reply #73 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:58:33 AM »

Who lugs 10-15 balls to a tournament these days? Posting of lane patterns has eliminated this for the most part. At the regional level, depending on the pattern and surface, at most guys take 5-6 balls. And i doubt very seriously most exempt players lug very many balls, most transport them on the PBA services truck. Most will take a few they think they will need at the next stop, and leave the rest on the truck.

I see what your getting at about the cost, they way i see it if you cant afford the equipment to compete, do you need to be trying to compete in the first place?
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

txbowler · « **Reply #74 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »

What I find interesting here is there is definitely 2 different tournament bowlers being discussed.

The PBA regional tournament bowler and the good house bowler who never has tried a PBA pattern/sport type pattern except maybe nationals but bowls house tournaments around his area that are probably contested on various versions of THS.

Edited on 1/15/2010 12:13 PM

r534me · « **Reply #75 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:36:48 AM »

quote:
What I find interesting here is there is definitely 2 different tournament bowlers being discussed.

The PBA regional tournament bowler and the good house bowler who never has tried a PBA pattern/sport type pattern except maybe nationals but bowls house tournaments around his area that are probably contested on various versions of THS.

Edited on 1/15/2010 12:13 PM

Or the house bowler who bowls on kegel sport shots..

Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 12308 times)

pin-chaser

Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

9andaWiggle

Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

agroves

Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

txbowler

Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

r534me

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r534me

Re: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT

DavidKSNK

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stopncrank

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DavidKSNK

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stopncrank

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r534me

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DavidKSNK

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r534me

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stopncrank

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txbowler

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r534me

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