Author Topic: Selfish Bowlers: Follow up Part 2 - RANT (Read 13216 times)

pin-chaser · « **on:** January 12, 2010, 08:08:01 AM »

The tored bowling pace of today is NOT the product of any ONE specific issue. It is a product of the science of taking advantage of everything available. Having been a mechanic in the 70's and 80's and being responsible for some of the highest scoring paces in the nation during those times I can tell you for a FACT that todays THS is no different than those back in my day. I can tell you with out a question that BALLS react on SYNTHETIC surfaces completely different today. I average 220's then and average 230's today but the difference is about 100 games a week of practice less now (not to mention I will be 50 this year and took off 15 years out of the last 20).

Bowling should be a sport!!! And those that compete at the highest levels should be considered athletes... I dont beleive anyone here would disagree with this simple statement.

The problem of how to get there is incredibally difficult and is more politics than technology. From my vantage point the real obsticle to overcome is simply the fact that the majority of bowlers today only "know" bowling from thier specific perspective. The vast majority of bowlers today have been bowling since 1990's (the advent of technologies that has brought forth the scoring pace). Those bowlers who understand the differences (who competed prior) are a much smaller minority and have little to no input in making changes and are typically ridculed. Where else do the "experts" and those the experience have so little worth??

Integrity in bowling is at the core of this topic. The fact that nearly every record has been re-established since 1997 since the inception of the sport in 1890 despite a reduction of bowlers from the heydays in the 70's-80's of ~10M to ~4M today certianly speaks to the fact that scoring is too easy and integrity has been compromised. When in the 70 there were ~10,000 300 games with ~10M bowlers and today there are ~100,000 300 games with ~4M bowlers again speaks to the fact that things have gotten out of hand.

The debate here is about how best to neutalize the scoring pace or in effect increase integrity without alienating those that bowl today. Frankly even a baby cries when someone takes away there deserts but calms down in time. Clearly the approach has to be slow and overtime or else it will threaten some. But does the sport have the time? But before that can happen an approach needs to be defined. And until you have enough information you cant define a path.

Today, here in Memphis, you cant get one scratch league together period, despite having 4 bowlers average over 230, 40 bowlers or 220 and 160 bowlers between 200 and 220. That is over 200 bowlers who have registered averages over 200 and we cant put on the floor even a 10 team, 50 bowlers. Does that speak to integrity?? You do not have even 1 sport league during the winter in any house. You cant get more than around ~10 people to show up to pot bowl when you are giving them free lineage ($3.00 for unlimited bowling on fresh oil), playing 2-3 places and only putting up $5 per game (basically no risk). If handicap is not included 99% of the bowlers here will not bowl period. I suspect that is the case in most US.

I shot my 1st 300 in 1978 and a 72 lane center stopped to watch me in the 10th. Today even here in Memphis you get ridiculed by some who have 20 or 30 because they know it is too easy. The highest achievment in bowling is a joke. 900 series twice by the same "kid" and he is a joke (maybe validly no one really knows for sure). National high averages over 260 (Can you imagine 780 to shoot your average).

Integrity is not only about scoring. There is no real solution for handicaping. There will always be cheaters. But the governing body should simply throw them out but cant (because of law suites). None the less, here in Memphis, you cant simply get a scratch league to eliminate those that cheat. Besides, with the limited number of bowlers left accross the nation, scratch league bowlers would be bowling against limited number of bowlers in each area anyway.

Bowling needs a complete overhaul from the ground up. What is left is so messed up that it might not be fixable in a way that does not preclude starting over with a different plan anyway. Here are some of my ideas as to a possible direction....

1. Determine clearly defined skill levels and allow appropriate level of technology of each level. (I dont know what these would be as some group should be responsible for the definitions... however as an example: easiest scoring level open play or open league level where the maximum fun can be obtained, any technology.... Next level could be leagues where the skill leveled required could require the ability to maintain accurracy of 5 degrees, ball speed within 1mph, rev rate within 100 rpm and lane patterns to allow those that can does to average 210 with limited ball flare and limited friction, the next level could be a league that requires accuracy of 2.5 degrees, ball speed with .5mph, rev rate within 50mph and lane patterns to allow a 210 average with even more limited ball flare and friction....etc...
2. Build the sport to have integirty built in by having the sport fund itself. The national oragainzational body should ensure that MEN and WOMEN both have the highest level of competion befiting sport. An increase is dues of $5 could provide $20M in prize funds in addition to the sponsorships. In return these PRO's should be required to give back to there local communities by offering summer coaching especially the youth, bowling center or pro shop support, local association responsibilities and exhibitions to draw more interest.
3. A third party independant non-profit organization to maintain the integrity by defining #1 above and mainting the long term scoring pace ensuring that skill is the primary factor. This would include all technologies, pins, surfaces, balls, lane specifications...etc.
4. Consistent and accurate methodologies and definitions for all bowling items.

I have more... but until bowling takes bowling serious no one else will. Look at the sports that are in the olypmics and then look at why bowling is not. Defined standards if execution... not subjected to abnormal abouts of luck. Bowling should be the same.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #76 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:50:44 AM »

Just to be clear, I am NOT advocating any specific pattern, pins, ball specifications or any other changes. I am simplying trying to say, that Integrity has been lost and if bowling is to achieve the kind of respect and inclusion in such things as the Olympics bowling must determine how to define the skill required to compete at different levels. Once defined I am sure changes of all types will be required that would indeed effect, patterns, pins, balls and other influences. However, until studies have been done to understand the importance of the influences making any changes is risky at best and most likely will not produce the desired effect.

To thost that state all records are meant to be broke... I am 100% in favor of every record being broke. No problems. I just want to be sure that the person who beats an hall of famer score will or is an hall of famer and not a product of some "technologies" providing unfair advantage as compared to the original record holder. That is in its simplistic form perserving integrity.

Alot of great posts here. Thank you. I am really enjoying and learning alot. There are alot of great minds and bowlers here.

r534me · « **Reply #77 on:** January 15, 2010, 11:57:21 AM »

According to the USBC propaganda the red, white, and blue patterns are suppose to give bowlers a clue how difficult the patterns are. I guess that's an attempt at standardization of the lane patterns, and it sounds good in theory. Can it be put in practice? We'll see.

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #78 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:13:43 PM »

quote:
Who lugs 10-15 balls to a tournament these days? Posting of lane patterns has eliminated this for the most part. At the regional level, depending on the pattern and surface, at most guys take 5-6 balls. And i doubt very seriously most exempt players lug very many balls, most transport them on the PBA services truck. Most will take a few they think they will need at the next stop, and leave the rest on the truck.

I see what your getting at about the cost, they way i see it if you cant afford the equipment to compete, do you need to be trying to compete in the first place?
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

You obviously haven't been to any PBA tournament if you're wondering who lugs 10-15 balls to a tournament. I've seen exempt guys roll into regionals with that much equipment, so to say "who does it?" is off base. Even if some of the guys don't keep all of the stuff for the next stop, they still drill up a ton more stuff just to be competitive. Those who have access to a lot of equipment so they can afford to not get every single drilling have an unfair advantage. Not everyone can be on a ball staff and get comped stuff. A friend of mine who was out on tour at one time used to drill up 120 balls a year, that should tell you a lot about what it takes to be successful out there. The people who think they can cut it with 6 balls and do cut it are far and few. The fact that lane conditions need to be posted now for people to decide to bowl a tournament is a sad testament to how important equipment selection is.

stopncrank · « **Reply #79 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:15:52 PM »

I think too many times we get caught up in the whole, bowlers of yesteryear were better than todays bowlers arguement. Most of this argument is based on how little skill todays bowlers have vs. bowlers in say the 60's and 70's. It was a totally different game back then and while yes it took skill back then to bowl, walled up lanes and tremendous scores were not uncommon even in the 50's.

I never really hear anybody discuss what it would be like if you took a bowler like say Dick Hoover, or Billy Hardwick and made them bowl against top PBA guys of today with the new equipment. Again, todays game is completely different, and they would surely have to adjust their own games as well.
Bowlers back then could split boards 3 ways, and bowlers of today have to be knowlegable of ball reaction much more so than back then-two different sets of "Skills" that makes/made them great. Todays game doesnt reward splitting boards, its all about creating area and entry angle. How good would the old school bowlers be at this "skill". Hum, something to think about huh? Its all relative guys, this arguement about bowlers back then is old, they were some of the best ever-Dick Hoover, Billy Hardwick, Dave Davis, Dick Weber to name a few. But lets not discredit todays stars too, they are great at what they do today, too.

This is why i say you cant just argue that the game was that way back then so it must regress back to that now to survive. Any argument has two sides, and can be reversed to show a different point, but neither side proves one or the other is wrong.

No matter what equipment is used, wether it be balls or lane maintenence, somebody is gonna figure out a way to score, whether its 1950 or 2010.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

txbowler · « **Reply #80 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:42:00 PM »

Ah...I think you may have hit a good point.

There is a portion of bowlers that all they can do is split boards. They cannot generate area, power, or entry angle even with today's technology.

Back then, splitting boards was rewarded. Accuracy was high on the required skills list, if not the highest.

Accuracy is still a required skill at the elite level but, in my opinion, not as nearly necessary as it once was.

There is group of bowlers that want it to be again.

stopncrank · « **Reply #81 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:53:39 PM »

quote:
quote:
Who lugs 10-15 balls to a tournament these days? Posting of lane patterns has eliminated this for the most part. At the regional level, depending on the pattern and surface, at most guys take 5-6 balls. And i doubt very seriously most exempt players lug very many balls, most transport them on the PBA services truck. Most will take a few they think they will need at the next stop, and leave the rest on the truck.

I see what your getting at about the cost, they way i see it if you cant afford the equipment to compete, do you need to be trying to compete in the first place?
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

You obviously haven't been to any PBA tournament if you're wondering who lugs 10-15 balls to a tournament. I've seen exempt guys roll into regionals with that much equipment, so to say "who does it?" is off base. Even if some of the guys don't keep all of the stuff for the next stop, they still drill up a ton more stuff just to be competitive. Those who have access to a lot of equipment so they can afford to not get every single drilling have an unfair advantage. Not everyone can be on a ball staff and get comped stuff. A friend of mine who was out on tour at one time used to drill up 120 balls a year, that should tell you a lot about what it takes to be successful out there. The people who think they can cut it with 6 balls and do cut it are far and few. The fact that lane conditions need to be posted now for people to decide to bowl a tournament is a sad testament to how important equipment selection is.

David, i think we are arguing different points, i was referring to actually traveling on the PBA tour. From reading Jeff Carter's journal, i know he keeps 8-12 balls in his personal truck, and stores the rest on the PBA truck for transport. Naturally someone who isn't on a staff has to take all of their stuff with them to every stop. At the local level i rarely see anyone roll up to a tournament with 15 balls. And at the regional level, a good friend of mine bowls in the PBA southern region(he is top 25 in points) and he has told me several times that he takes in general 6-10 balls max with him depending on pattern and lane surface. If he has been to that particular center before in general he pretty much knows what will work and what wont unless its a different surface/pattern than last time he was there.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #82 on:** January 15, 2010, 02:23:20 PM »

I feel this thread has proved two things fairly definitively. Firstly, I think it's safe to say that all the "purists" (at least as a whole) have no real consensus definition of what they want the game (with the exception of "harder," a vague statement if ever there was one) to become for it to regain lost integrity. And secondly, I think it's safe to say that any proposed changes would ultimately go nowhere in regaining this so-called integrity.

Let's start with technology (which is unquestionably the root cause in higher scores in this era compared to past eras). For instance, some of you think bowling ball technology should be wound back across the board, but others feel this should only occur in the upper reaches of the game (i.e. the PBA). The problem is, some of you think the game has lost integrity because outsiders see recreational league bowlers scoring better than the pros on TV on a regular basis, a problem that would only be compounded were the pros limited to the ball technology of yesteryear.

On this argument, some of you feel this wouldn't be the case because the pros are so much better, which begs the following question: why even make the change in the first place if no relative improvement or decrease in scoring will result? Many of you might answer this by touting the new emphasis this will place on shotmaking, which is true (somewhat). Except you forget that if everyone was using the same equipment on Tour, stuff that didn't soak up oil like a sponge, then the emphasis on macroadjustments and laneplay strategy so common in this era would be highly demoted because most everyone would play the same part of the lane and wouldn't have to make huge moves as a block progressed. So, in essence, all you're doing is taking one challenge or hurdle or skill and replacing it with another. Again, we've gone nowhere.

Or maybe the solution isn't to change the equipment people use, but the patterns we bowl on. But yet again, we face a problem. If the typical house shots of today continue to be applied (never mind these shots differ little from the shots of the past 50 years in terms of topology), then the scoring pace will continue to be high in leagues across the country. And this alienates roughly 10% of the bowling population (the "purists"). But if you apply tough shots across the board, then recreational bowlers will be driven away in droves, and bowling membership and participation will decrease dramatically. So at what price (in terms of membership) is lower scoring worth it, and how is turning people off promoting integrity?

And even if you apply a tough pattern, what's to say that scores won't improve in a decade's time as people get used to it? When the PBA went to sport spots years back, scores were miserable. But over time, they improved, which is to be expected when people see these shots enough. So maybe we just curb bowling technology for everyone (which I mentioned earlier) and keep easier shots out to better resemble the past. The problem with that is lane surfaces are so much better now compared to the past, so scores will still remain high. And changing lane surfaces in every center is something that will never happen.

Basically, every fix the "purists" can possibly offer to this problem will be accompanied by secondary problems and issues. As it stands now, recreational bowlers get plenty of help on THS (which obviously isn't that easy for everyone since everyone doesn't average 230) while upper-echelon players are given plenty of more challenging options: sport bowling, scratch tournaments, the PBA (both regional and national), etc. In this respect, we have the best of both worlds and everyone can (and should) remain happy. And while there will surely be people that argue their location prohibits them from taking advantage of the latter examples, nothing is stopping them from taking initiative. It's entirely unfair for these people to expect sweeping changes because they live in a weak bowling market.

I'll be the first to admit that THS scoring paces can be out of control. But there's really no remedy, and honestly, all things considered, should there really be one? People keep looking for solutions to this problem, but is it that big a problem at all? I really feel that it's the way the game has to be to thrive, especially considering the advancement of technology, recreational bowlers being in the clear majority, and there being no "solution" that doesn't raise other issues. So I really think the "purists" should just stop looking for a solution that doesn't exist.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

NoseofRI · « **Reply #83 on:** January 15, 2010, 02:37:52 PM »

quote:
I feel this thread has proved two things fairly definitively. Firstly, I think it's safe to say that all the "purists" (at least as a whole) have no real consensus definition of what they want the game (with the exception of "harder," a vague statement if ever there was one) to become for it to regain lost integrity. And secondly, I think it's safe to say that any proposed changes would ultimately go nowhere in regaining this so-called integrity.

Let's start with technology (which is unquestionably the root cause in higher scores in this era compared to past eras). For instance, some of you think bowling ball technology should be wound back across the board, but others feel this should only occur in the upper reaches of the game (i.e. the PBA). The problem is, some of you think the game has lost integrity because outsiders see recreational league bowlers scoring better than the pros on TV on a regular basis, a problem that would only be compounded were the pros limited to the ball technology of yesteryear.

On this argument, some of you feel this wouldn't be the case because the pros are so much better, which begs the following question: why even make the change in the first place if no relative improvement or decrease in scoring will result? Many of you might answer this by touting the new emphasis this will place on shotmaking, which is true (somewhat). Except you forget that if everyone was using the same equipment on Tour, stuff that didn't soak up oil like a sponge, then the emphasis on macroadjustments and laneplay strategy so common in this era would be highly demoted because most everyone would play the same part of the lane and wouldn't have to make huge moves as a block progressed. So, in essence, all you're doing is taking one challenge or hurdle or skill and replacing it with another. Again, we've gone nowhere.

Or maybe the solution isn't to change the equipment people use, but the patterns we bowl on. But yet again, we face a problem. If the typical house shots of today continue to be applied (never mind these shots differ little from the shots of the past 50 years in terms of topology), then the scoring pace will continue to be high in leagues across the country. And this alienates roughly 10% of the bowling population (the "purists"). But if you apply tough shots across the board, then recreational bowlers will be driven away in droves, and bowling membership and participation will decrease dramatically. So at what price (in terms of membership) is lower scoring worth it, and how is turning people off promoting integrity?

And even if you apply a tough pattern, what's to say that scores won't improve in a decade's time as people get used to it? When the PBA went to sport spots years back, scores were miserable. But over time, they improved, which is to be expected when people see these shots enough. So maybe we just curb bowling technology for everyone (which I mentioned earlier) and keep easier shots out to better resemble the past. The problem with that is lane surfaces are so much better now compared to the past, so scores will still remain high. And changing lane surfaces in every center is something that will never happen.

Basically, every fix the "purists" can possibly offer to this problem will be accompanied by secondary problems and issues. As it stands now, recreational bowlers get plenty of help on THS (which obviously isn't that easy for everyone since everyone doesn't average 230) while upper-echelon players are given plenty of more challenging options: sport bowling, scratch tournaments, the PBA (both regional and national), etc. In this respect, we have the best of both worlds and everyone can (and should) remain happy. And while there will surely be people that argue their location prohibits them from taking advantage of the latter examples, nothing is stopping them from taking initiative. It's entirely unfair for these people to expect sweeping changes because they live in a weak bowling market.

I'll be the first to admit that THS scoring paces can be out of control. But there's really no remedy, and honestly, all things considered, should there really be one? People keep looking for solutions to this problem, but is it that big a problem at all? I really feel that it's the way the game has to be to thrive, especially considering the advancement of technology, recreational bowlers being in the clear majority, and there being no "solution" that doesn't raise other issues. So I really think the "purists" should just stop looking for a solution that doesn't exist.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

+1

r534me · « **Reply #84 on:** January 15, 2010, 07:15:27 PM »

Lower the channel and killing the sideboards will likely hurt the low rev player the most. Of course, they benefited the most from the hand grenades.

As far as leagues bringing in the dollars for the centers think again. The most money comes from open play. The stats are a few years old and with declining membership I think they are still valid as evidence of the trend.

http://www.bowlingfoundation.org/BowlingFacts.aspx

League play versus open play lineage for 2005/2006 season: 41.6% league play, 58.4% open play

edit: In 2008-09, there were 2,325,074 USBC members. The number of Sport members for 2008-09 were 28,915.

http://forums.bowl.com/index.php?/topic/127-certified-bowlers/

USBC Membership for 2006/2007 season as of May 2007:
â€¢ Number of USBC certified leagues bowlers: 2,521,617
â€¢ Number of USBC certified leagues: 71,196
â€¢ Number of USBC Sport Bowling members: 12,543

At least the sport membership is higher.

I can''t believe I spent another 10 minutes on this thread.

Edited on 1/15/2010 8:30 PM

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #85 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:09:08 AM »

quote:
I feel this thread has proved two things fairly definitively. Firstly, I think it's safe to say that all the "purists" (at least as a whole) have no real consensus definition of what they want the game (with the exception of "harder," a vague statement if ever there was one) to become for it to regain lost integrity. And secondly, I think it's safe to say that any proposed changes would ultimately go nowhere in regaining this so-called integrity.

Let's start with technology (which is unquestionably the root cause in higher scores in this era compared to past eras). For instance, some of you think bowling ball technology should be wound back across the board, but others feel this should only occur in the upper reaches of the game (i.e. the PBA). The problem is, some of you think the game has lost integrity because outsiders see recreational league bowlers scoring better than the pros on TV on a regular basis, a problem that would only be compounded were the pros limited to the ball technology of yesteryear.

On this argument, some of you feel this wouldn't be the case because the pros are so much better, which begs the following question: why even make the change in the first place if no relative improvement or decrease in scoring will result? Many of you might answer this by touting the new emphasis this will place on shotmaking, which is true (somewhat). Except you forget that if everyone was using the same equipment on Tour, stuff that didn't soak up oil like a sponge, then the emphasis on macroadjustments and laneplay strategy so common in this era would be highly demoted because most everyone would play the same part of the lane and wouldn't have to make huge moves as a block progressed. So, in essence, all you're doing is taking one challenge or hurdle or skill and replacing it with another. Again, we've gone nowhere.

Or maybe the solution isn't to change the equipment people use, but the patterns we bowl on. But yet again, we face a problem. If the typical house shots of today continue to be applied (never mind these shots differ little from the shots of the past 50 years in terms of topology), then the scoring pace will continue to be high in leagues across the country. And this alienates roughly 10% of the bowling population (the "purists"). But if you apply tough shots across the board, then recreational bowlers will be driven away in droves, and bowling membership and participation will decrease dramatically. So at what price (in terms of membership) is lower scoring worth it, and how is turning people off promoting integrity?

And even if you apply a tough pattern, what's to say that scores won't improve in a decade's time as people get used to it? When the PBA went to sport spots years back, scores were miserable. But over time, they improved, which is to be expected when people see these shots enough. So maybe we just curb bowling technology for everyone (which I mentioned earlier) and keep easier shots out to better resemble the past. The problem with that is lane surfaces are so much better now compared to the past, so scores will still remain high. And changing lane surfaces in every center is something that will never happen.

Basically, every fix the "purists" can possibly offer to this problem will be accompanied by secondary problems and issues. As it stands now, recreational bowlers get plenty of help on THS (which obviously isn't that easy for everyone since everyone doesn't average 230) while upper-echelon players are given plenty of more challenging options: sport bowling, scratch tournaments, the PBA (both regional and national), etc. In this respect, we have the best of both worlds and everyone can (and should) remain happy. And while there will surely be people that argue their location prohibits them from taking advantage of the latter examples, nothing is stopping them from taking initiative. It's entirely unfair for these people to expect sweeping changes because they live in a weak bowling market.

I'll be the first to admit that THS scoring paces can be out of control. But there's really no remedy, and honestly, all things considered, should there really be one? People keep looking for solutions to this problem, but is it that big a problem at all? I really feel that it's the way the game has to be to thrive, especially considering the advancement of technology, recreational bowlers being in the clear majority, and there being no "solution" that doesn't raise other issues. So I really think the "purists" should just stop looking for a solution that doesn't exist.
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

Most of the "purists" just want to see more of a return to skill at the higher levels and don't have a great deal of interest in the recreational level. All things being equal talent wise, ball selection matters too much at the upper levels.

And actually addressing the ball technology allows the lane conditions to be properly addressed...once those are addressed it then allows the pins to be addressed. The THS scoring pace is mostly out of control because of the balls...the conditions aren't really any easier than they were 20 years ago in most cases...the balls just exploit the conditions unlike anything back then could. Plus as things stand, the current version of bowling at lower levels doesn't entice anyone to get better.

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #86 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:50:42 AM »

quote:
The PBA doesn't draw strong enough numbers as it is now to be considered a player in this equation.
Let the recreational bowler bowl his big score and brag. Who cares? He probably doesn't even know what the pros shot on t.v. the week before. What that recreational bowler says and does matter not one bit to me.

You guys complain that the new balls strike too easy. They also can leave an un-makeable split really easy. The easiest way to cut down scoring is deepen the channels in the pit and take out the springy kickboards on the sides. You won't have as many messengers flying across the pit to take out that ten pin. But isn't it exciting to see that messenger pin do that?

Scoring is relevant only in the context of the setting that it was shot. Three couples on a lane in open bowling? Somebody shoots a 200 and they all clap their hands in glee. Somebody shoots a 200 in my classic league rolling on Kegel patterns? Who cares? But I guarantee you that the five or six top bowlers in that league (most have a PBA card, for what that's worth) don't threaten the league. They are an example to be admired and copied. You bet your azz I try to watch everything they do and become better myself. I don't care if we're bowling on a U.S. Open shot or the Great Wall of China, 9 times out of 10 they are going to beat me. Isn't it up to me or any other individual to determine what level they want to bowl at irregardless of the condition they are bowling on and with what equipment? I mean, my Dad and Uncle used to be good bowlers (they are in their mid-seventies now and don't bowl) averaging 198 + in the 60's and 70's. They are absolutely ecstatic that I have shot 3 300s and one 800. They were never able to achieve those honor scores. I always tell them that the game is a lot different now and the balls are really powerful but you know what they say? "Somebody had to roll that ball in the same place and in the same manner to get all those strikes!" That right there underscores what I am saying about scoring is only relevant in the arena in which is was scored. All this hand wringing is about nothing, in my opinion.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #87 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:33:04 AM »

Thanks DavidKSNK well said.

That is all Im saying, establish the requirements for levels of execution. Reduce the ability of technology (of all types) to be the determining factor and replace it with a defined set skill(s).

stopncrank · « **Reply #88 on:** January 20, 2010, 11:56:58 AM »

Certain skill sets still exist, especially at the upper levels. Alot of you guys act like anybody can just go buy a new steroid ball and join the PBA tour right now. I know better than that. You guys know better, too.
Right now id say that in general, scoring overall is more even than ever before. At what other time can you recall when you can have a 120 lb guy with 5 revs be able to keep up score wise with another guy who has a 450 rev rate and tons of speed?

Look, this is an old argument. When i first started bowling, it was Strokers vs. Crankers. All i heard was how much Crankers had the advantage. Strokers would be mad to no end because Crankers could miss a couple boards either way and still hit the pocket. Strokers miss and it the big four or the bucket.
If you reign in technology, scale back the power of the balls then it becomes exactly what it was in the 70''s and early 80''s, advantage to high rev rates and bowlers who can create area, not much different than what we already have today.

At least today bowlers of all styles, rev rates, ball speed have an equal opportunity to score. What ive learned then and now, is the one''s that cry for change and blame balls and conditons and say we need to fix it are usually the ones who have been left behind, or cant adapt to current conditions.

All we hear is that steroid balls and conditions are the reasons why the sport is declining. NO! The sport is declining because of the internet, video games, and television. Kids could care less about learning sports now days, its so much easier to sit behind a computer and play than to actually get out of the house and learn something. When i started bowling, all bowling had to compete with was movie theaters, concerts, ect. You want to blame technology, that is fine, just blame the technology that bowling itself has to compete with. This is why Youth participation, and participation in general is down.
--------------------
Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/20/2010 12:59 PM

DavidKSNK · « **Reply #89 on:** January 20, 2010, 02:59:29 PM »

quote:
Certain skill sets still exist, especially at the upper levels. Alot of you guys act like anybody can just go buy a new steroid ball and join the PBA tour right now. I know better than that. You guys know better, too.
Right now id say that in general, scoring overall is more even than ever before. At what other time can you recall when you can have a 120 lb guy with 5 revs be able to keep up score wise with another guy who has a 450 rev rate and tons of speed?

Look, this is an old argument. When i first started bowling, it was Strokers vs. Crankers. All i heard was how much Crankers had the advantage. Strokers would be mad to no end because Crankers could miss a couple boards either way and still hit the pocket. Strokers miss and it the big four or the bucket.
If you reign in technology, scale back the power of the balls then it becomes exactly what it was in the 70''s and early 80''s, advantage to high rev rates and bowlers who can create area, not much different than what we already have today.

At least today bowlers of all styles, rev rates, ball speed have an equal opportunity to score. What ive learned then and now, is the one''s that cry for change and blame balls and conditons and say we need to fix it are usually the ones who have been left behind, or cant adapt to current conditions.

All we hear is that steroid balls and conditions are the reasons why the sport is declining. NO! The sport is declining because of the internet, video games, and television. Kids could care less about learning sports now days, its so much easier to sit behind a computer and play than to actually get out of the house and learn something. When i started bowling, all bowling had to compete with was movie theaters, concerts, ect. You want to blame technology, that is fine, just blame the technology that bowling itself has to compete with. This is why Youth participation, and participation in general is down.
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Taking your lunch money, one strike at a time....

Edited on 1/20/2010 12:59 PM

I've already said that when talent is relatively equal as it is at the PBA level, ball selection matters too much. Not to mention you see a lot of times, a pro make a ball change and go from averaging 190 to 240+. There's no skill in that, and the best bowler is not always being rewarded.

Those who have the most success over the long haul are never the crankers...there are a few exceptions, but those who can go down the boards are the ones who have the most success out on tour.

Those crying for change can't adapt?

The former PBA laneman for many years, Len Nicholson, has a list of 70+ PBA champions who have signed their name calling for restrictions on the current equipment. That includes current touring players. So to make some blanket statement like you made is incredibly misguided.

Basically you advocate people being rewarded for not trying to get better...that isn't going to grow bowling as a sport at all. The current game is too complicated as it stands right now, and there is a significant lack of fairness in play. The PBA tour was at its fairest point back in 1971...nearly 40 years later they have more problems out there than they did in '71.

Leftyhi-trak · « **Reply #90 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:58:09 PM »

I applaud the above statement. The game is vastly different in both technology and in reverence as a sport. As leagues have declined and the customer base is smaller, houses look at ways to keep people happy which is usually interpretted as "scoring pace". Again the lesser customer base is relevant to todays social enviroment. Less people, less practice and overall the sport is less exciting as tremendous amounts of other sports and social activities have entered the picture. Bowling is kind of a "lost art" like manners. I am one who doe not believe in technology is the root of evil. If anything it has made better players as they have to understand things like, RG,differential, coverstock prep, drill patterns, breakpoints and oil patterns to be successful in serious competition.(Please note THS in most cases don''t count as you can score with just about anything) The more variables you add the more defined you must be. I''ve given up on the issue of integrity its totally personal choice. If your not serious then it really doesn''t matter anyways and there is not really enough serious bowlers left. Debate it all you want, unless something or someone groundbreaking comes along, its just spinning wheels and themud gets gradually deeper.

P.S. - Pin Chaser, wheres the integrity of a guy who borrows equipment and never gives it back. I''m waiting its only been since 2007.
Selfish Bowler:Rant - Was the title self proclaimed!!!

Edited on 1/20/2010 9:00 PM

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