Post by: Jeffrevs on June 21, 2004, 04:31:19 PM
What is all the bickering about regarding Shinnecock Hills last weekend ?!? It's the US Open,...what do you want,....a putt-putt course?!
I see the condition of this course like a tough sport shot for a big/major PBA stop or tournament.....yes ?
Quit your b*tching and play the game! What's the matter, can't handle nice +7 for a tourney ?!
Best players in the world need the best/toughest challenges in the world...end of discussion!
Thoughts? Comments?
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Edited on 6/22/2004 8:12 AM
Post by: cpo_bee on June 22, 2004, 08:20:34 AM
Post by: Jeffrevs on June 22, 2004, 08:26:17 AM
quote:
I totally agree. The whining from the top pros was sickening. It would be like PDW and Walter Ray whining about our US Open or Masters shot.
cpo-
Exaclty! ....that's what I was thinking.......
anyone else?!?! Come on..... a golf / bowling comparison post,...get with it!
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Post by: Pinbuster on June 22, 2004, 08:38:43 AM
Often on a sport shot you can throw a good shot, hit your target, correct axis, correct revs, correct speed, but because of the variable breakdown of the oil pattern you can get a bad result.
Some of golf’s US Open was that way. You could play the correct shot but not get good results.
But some of the issues the golf pro’s had were that some shots were impossible to play. You had to purely get lucky. It would be same as in a sport shot if you were shooting spares with a plastic ball. You throw the ball over the correct target, you break your wrist and come straight up the back of the ball, but they have put random dumps on the lane bed and if you hit one the ball will jump into the gutter and you miss the spare.
The pro’s in both sports want tough conditions but they want to be rewarded when they make the proper shot. It is the reason why the PBA went to their own patterns that didn’t break down as randomly.
Post by: rabbit_sla on June 22, 2004, 08:56:21 AM
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Oh to be young again, wait I am young.
Post by: Ishmael on June 22, 2004, 09:23:12 AM
Post by: Jeffrevs on June 22, 2004, 09:26:27 AM
quote:
I agree with Pinbuster. The pro's want tough, but fair. Some of the shots at the open depended more on luck than skill. I don't like that. I like to see good shots rewarded and bad shots punished.
I too agree, but,...isn't THAT portion of comparing golf to bowling too difficult ? Because your dealing with a natural substance like grass, that grows ?? Does that make sense?
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Post by: BackToBasics on June 22, 2004, 10:21:20 AM
This year's bowling US Open was tough but fair. High average was 216 with only 66 guys averaging 200. Not even close to what the USGA had at Shinnecock.
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 22, 2004, 10:58:17 AM
The US open used to be about great ball striking.
Now it is about great putting!
The top players in this years tournament were the best putters.
Though the greens looked like 100 feet by 50 feet in diameter, because of the absurd hardness, these greens actually played like there was a 10 by 10 landing area, and make sure you don't land on the little swale that angles down in that 10 foot area, from 200 yards.
Bottom line, beyond the accuracy capabilities of humans! It is estimated that the top professionals err by about 1% on their average shot when playing their best. 300 yards = about 30 yards varience, and so on.
Put Ben Hogan on these conditions and he would have had trouble averaging under 76 the last two days.
To think of players of this incredible caliber averaging 79 for a round is absurd! These guys short games as a whole are almost 4 shots a round better than pros from 40 years ago! Why if you brought in the pros from the 50s they would have been lucky to average sub 85.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I doubt that I'd even I'd be able to hit 9 greens in regulation!
PPS this tricking up is why this tournament is no longer no 1 in the world. It may be number 3. British, Masters, US open and PGA.
Post by: Ragnar on June 22, 2004, 11:01:00 AM
quote:
Bottom line, beyond the accuracy capabilities of humans! It is estimated that the top professionals err by about 1% on their average shot when playing their best. 300 yards = about 30 yards varience, and so on.
um, er 1% of 300 would be 3 yards. and so on....
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"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,"
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 22, 2004, 11:35:26 AM
However as far as straight long drivers are concerned.
Something I know a bit about. One can usually only contain a 300 yard drive in about a 30 yard area on softer ground. The hardness of the ground at Shinnecock made the effective landing area about 10 yards wide and even less on the green.
The amount of varience allowed again was beyond human capabilities. Therefore the contest became one of stategic miss calculation(miss on the safe side) combined with the best spare game(or did I mean pitching, chipping and putting game).
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 22, 2004, 11:41:49 AM
I was fortunate enough to go and watch the 1971 US open at Merion.
Lee Trevino beat Jack Nicklaus in a playoff.
The course is too short for today's golf and will never be used again for a major. Conditions were very severe for the times. Stimpmeter of about 10, hardness of greens very hard, about 1/2 as hard as Shinnecock.
A month later a friend of mine who had been at best about 4th in the county amateur went there and shot 71. He said EASY course, I should have played in the OPEN! Right. He would have shot about 87 on the same course set up for an open.
Note Billy Mayfair a top 20 or so player in 7 of the last 10 US opens shot 89 the last day and made a long putt on the last hole to do so!
Conditions at Shinnecock were so tough it was absurd!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS equal to a sport shot that puts the top pros below 200!
Post by: Jeffrevs on June 22, 2004, 11:43:52 AM
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Post by: dirtbikebowler on June 22, 2004, 01:57:52 PM
Post by: stanski on June 22, 2004, 11:00:46 PM
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stanski
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 23, 2004, 05:15:54 AM
Something the US open has always been known for until recently.
The course became a challenge of plan your misses and recover best! A pitch and putt course after getting your approach close to the green. Often off the green with a chip was the better spot to be. Or even in the traps!
Great analogy Bones but because of the hardness of the fairways also this also decreased the effective width of all fairways.
The skill in 2 players being under par for the week is absolutely amazing.
I can only guess that the great Ben Hogan, who could play the preeminent US open style game of his time would have been about +6 to + 10 for the week playing his best golf.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS as you mentioned Bones because of hardness of the greens and crowning effect this was the ultimate reverse block.
PPS Bob Hanson, I loved your analogy of easy shot turning hard, and hard shot turning easy. True for righthanders the opposite for lefties! The plight of the lefthander on tour today, the tough shot never gets easy till it's too late!
Post by: Pinbuster on June 23, 2004, 09:16:23 AM
I read a story by a Golf magazine writer about the open. He said he was able to play the course on Monday after the tournament. They had watered the course and the greens had not been rolled or mowed since the tournament Sunday. “Was the course fair, probably but “ he stated that seven and ten were still nearly unplayable 24 hours later with no wind.
While he didn’t state his handicap he said he was not a bad player (I take that to mean he is a single digit handicapper) but that he didn’t break 100 and he QUIT after 13 holes. That would mean he would have shot 130 to 140 had he finished the round.
His final statement was he could now appreciate even more just how good the pros really are.
Post by: Jeffrevs on June 23, 2004, 10:44:13 AM
a tough sport shot still rewards good shotmaking.....the US Open did not necessarily do that..........
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JEFF
There is doing in not doing
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 23, 2004, 01:11:47 PM
The British open has hard greens and fairways too!
But in many or most places it has runup area.
It has it's sense of capriciousness also as to when your Tee time is. Tiger In the Woods(new name), going out in his grand slam pursuit in the British in the worst of the weather and shooting 81! Versus at Pebble Beach when he won his US open he got the best of the weather.
However the hardness of the greens has been considered in the design of the holes in the British, in most cases. Versus at Shinnecock pins were set right behind traps and the out(safe) areas often left the ball veering off a crown. Therefore smart players starting aiming for misses to go in traps or even to hit the ball to the front corners in front of greens where they had the simplest uphill chip or pitch. Not even trying to hit the greens in many cases! Basically the safe way to play was to play the course as though you were trying to shoot no higher than 80 and then depend on your short game to get you as close to par as reasonable!
Whereas the original design of the course was never intended to have greens so hard due to the severe slopes and possible pin placements behind bunkers.
One has a condition or course setup that is incompatible with the course design.
This course Shinnecock because of the crowning of the greens and the rock hardness of the greens became virtually unplayable. This was only a slight difference from Pinehurst #2 where Payne Stewart won and guess who Phil Mickelson came in 2nd! Crowned greens that were very hard(not as hard as Shinnecock) led to the same result. Two great pitchers of the ball in contention.
See that is the problem, it is now a pitch and putt contest, or if they make it fair(like days 1 and 2) these guys will shoot 12 under or slightly better.
The USGA wants the scores to be near par and therefore has to go to unfair!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS as I said above aiming to the safe area of the green(a famous Nicklaus tactic) was not even feasable as many greens had no safe area to aim at, even away from the pin!
PPS on this course with his best game of his prime I don't believe that Nicklaus could have broken par. This is not saying that Phil Mickelson or Goose are better golfers, Nicklaus was better T to green and a better putter consistently and the best pressure player ever. I'd guess Jack in a premium performance anywhere from +1 to plus 6 on this course. Of course if he complained they would have softened the course more for Sunday!
Edited on 6/23/2004 5:37 PM