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Author Topic: short pin to pap vs RICO  (Read 9068 times)

J_w73

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short pin to pap vs RICO
« on: March 23, 2009, 06:41:27 AM »
What differences / benefits would there be on a short pin to pap (1 - 2"), vs a rico drill. My rico would be 5.5 inches pin to pap.

I have never really had a ball with the pin shorter than leverage.  I am considering this drill for a really smooth medium oil ball..
will this smooth oil wet/dry?  Is this good for sport shots?
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J_w73

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 10:15:07 AM »
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

Pin to PAP placements are as such (devoid of surface prep and a weight hole):

Placing the pin at leverage or 3 3/8" from the PAP allows the highest amount of flare potential in the core. Flare potential is dependant on core strength or RG differential. Leverage or 3 3/8" pin placements generally will create more overall hook, front to back, more so than side to side. A leverage or 3 3/8" pin placement does not tend to create an angular reaction, as most think due to this being considered the strongest layout.
Any deviation from leverage, changes flare potential, as well as reaction shape.
Placing the pin closer to PAP, decreases flare potential and creates an earlier reaction on the lane and a smoother back end reaction.
Placing the pin farther from the PAP and closer to the track, decreases the flare potential and creates a later reaction and a smoother back end reaction/b].
Hope this makes sense and clears up questions that have been asked.
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Formerly BrunsRico


regarding the longer pin to pap."later reaction and smoother backend" .. is that correct.?? I thought skid/flip layouts usually have a longer pin.. is this from the pin above the fingers.. How /Why does a pin in this position flip or be more angular on the backend. I know it is because the holes take weight out of the side of the core.. this raises the rg and also increases the rg differential.. so what is causing the big backend??  the higher rg.. or the increase rg differential and more flare.??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
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njv29

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 02:38:43 PM »
quote:
regarding the longer pin to pap."later reaction and smoother backend" .. is that correct.?? I thought skid/flip layouts usually have a longer pin.. is this from the pin above the fingers.. How /Why does a pin in this position flip or be more angular on the backend. I know it is because the holes take weight out of the side of the core.. this raises the rg and also increases the rg differential.. so what is causing the big backend??  the higher rg.. or the increase rg differential and more flare.??


The ball goes farther down the lane before hooking as the pin is placed farther from the axis because the core is standing straighter up and down. As the ball rolls, it tries to reach stability (which is achieved when the core is laying on its side, completely parallel to the lane surface). The farther the pin is from the axis, the farther the distance the core must tip to reach stability becomes. Greater distance to travel = Longer time to make the trip.

As you move the pin closer to 6 3/4" from your PAP, the core actually will become more stable off your hand than it is when it is closer to leverage. Remember that track flare is caused by "wobble" induced by the core's offset from parallel or perpendicular to the lane out of your hand. At 6 3/4" the core is standing straight up and down, so in effect it will not turn over as the ball spins around it's axis. This leads to little to no track flare, which produces a very smooth reaction as the ball rolls over the same oil ring all the way down the lane, and the core never "tips" (or does so very slowly).
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J_w73

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2009, 02:45:31 PM »
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

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Formerly BrunsRico


so if I had a short pin symetrical ball with the pin close to centergrip that didn't need a weight hole that ball would be more even rolling and hooking throughout the lane???
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Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

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Juggernaut

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 03:02:23 PM »
quote:
quote:
Here are a few explanations of pin to PAP distances as well as some more info on the 'Rico' layout.

The reason why the 'Rico' layout tends to be stronger in the back part of the lane is the placement of the weight hole. By placing the weight hole at 6 3/4" from the pin, creates the strongest amount of asymmetry in the ball. Asymmetry in the ball can help create continuity in the back end.

--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico


so if I had a short pin symetrical ball with the pin close to centergrip that didn't need a weight hole that ball would be more even rolling and hooking throughout the lane???


 Than an identical ball with an idenical drill with identical surface with the only difference being a weighthole to make it RICO? YES

 Than an identical ball with identical surface, but a longer pin out distance and the pin higher above the midline than it has? YES

 Than an identical ball with identical surface drilled with a shorter pin-to-pap? NO
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J_w73

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 03:09:28 PM »
thank you.. sums it up nicely.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
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JustRico

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 07:44:39 PM »
To clarify what I said in regards to pin farther from the PAP being longer and smoother, a ball that is able to retain energy easier, i.e. getting down the lane easier, generally has the potential to more angularity. The issue here is that bowlers relate reaction to back end reaction. It has to be looked at along the lines of overall reaction, not merely what the ball does the last 20 feet. A pin farther from the PAP is generally allowed to play closer to the friction, thus giving it the illusion that when it sees friction in the back part of the lane, it reacts stronger.
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nord

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 09:20:57 PM »
Below is a link to a video I took showing the same ball with two different layouts so you can see the difference in reactions.

The ball used is the Brunswick Magnitude 055.
Ball one has the pin at 3 3/8", a Leverage layout.
Ball two has the pin directly in the PAP.

What you will see is the Leverage layout is early, very early, and heavy rolling with very little backend reaction. This layout requires me to stay very straight and direct with the ball as it will not move much in the back since all the hook is in the front of the lane. The 3 3/8" layout is a control layout for me.

Pin in PAP is long and snappy.
The ball is not flaring, it has more rotation, and saves it all for the back where it suddenly transitions into a roll and snaps fast.

Here is the comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44ed-LUrGRQ

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Geigs

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Re: short pin to pap vs RICO
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 11:51:11 PM »
Great post, and insight from all you guys. One thing I will add to this is be careful drilling 3 3/8 leverage, strong drilling pin to pap on or near the Val. I did that with a hammer scandal, and it flares around the whole ball clipping the thumbhole on the last two flares. You can here the thumping of the ball rolling over the thumb five feet before the pins.
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