Post by: v02maxlefty on June 22, 2004, 05:38:21 PM
Post by: livespive on June 23, 2004, 09:05:39 AM
Main reason being is that kids are allowd in bowling alleys, not bars.
Eventhough smoking is associated with both, the fact that kids are envolved
should be the determining factor.
SO where in Columbus do you bowl?
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
http://www.visionarybowling.com
Edited on 6/23/2004 10:05 AM
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on June 23, 2004, 09:06:44 AM
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16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!
The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior PrincessAnd why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!
Post by: jkiser01 on June 23, 2004, 09:07:19 AM
I have bowled in centers that still allow smoking and its aweful. I enjoy bowling much more when I don't have to deal with the smoke, thats for sure..
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Post by: michelle on June 23, 2004, 10:00:39 AM
Hell, I walked away from bowling once, I could do it again.
The difference between smoking and non-smoking centers is dramatic...it really is nice to finish bowling and know the only funk to wash away is the dirt from the lanes. The stench from cigarette smoke is absolutely sickening.
Post by: jkiser01 on June 23, 2004, 10:05:56 AM
Amen to what you said about the smell thing. Also, the most annoying thing to me is to see someone that smokes leave their "cancer stick" still lit and sitting in an ashtray while they go bowl and all that smoke billowing into the air for everyone to breath.. How rude is that??
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Post by: DanH78 on June 23, 2004, 10:13:29 AM
I don't have a problem if a proprieter CHOOSES to ban smoking, but it should be up to him how he wants to run his business. A suburb up here recently tried to ban smoking everywhere except bars and Cigar shops. Well, there is a bar a few doors down from the cigar shop (one of the largest in the state) but since they sell food, he would have to ban smoking. WEll a huge amount of his business comes from that cigar shop. He took them to court and he won.
Why shouldn't a business owner be concerned with their bottom line? If you operate in the red long enough you go out of business and then no one can use your services. By forcing a ban like this, you take away any competive advantage you can gain by either allowing, or not allowing smoking. It's differentiation and it's good for all business.
Post by: intergalactic on June 23, 2004, 10:24:24 AM
Edited on 6/23/2004 10:20 AM
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on June 23, 2004, 10:25:09 AM
quote:
If smokers can endure a 4 hr flight, surely they can endure a 3 hr league.
Bones
Yeah, but they can't exactly step out to suck a butt real quick on an airplane, can they?
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White Dot
Raising kids is like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree.
http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/FBL/mkting.html
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on June 23, 2004, 10:27:50 AM
quote:
I have to say It is hell for me bowling when people are smoking around me. when I'm trying to breathe and all I get is the smoke from the 4 smokers cigarrets burning while there bowling and not even putting them out. If you wanto smoke atleast get the hell away from me I mean I'm trying to bowl not breathe in smoke. I really hate smokers I know it is wrong but I really hate them.
I don't know if you've got any dollar stores in your area, but I picked up a mini fan for a buck and it takes two AA batteries. I have it sitting on my table during bowling to a) keep my hand cool since it's summer, and b) blow smoke back at the people who are bowling next to me. I love that thing. And only a dollar!
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White Dot
Raising kids is like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree.
http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/FBL/mkting.html
Post by: jkiser01 on June 23, 2004, 10:30:41 AM
I am also delaing with a mother that has emphysema and is on 24 hour oxygen because of 50+ years of smoking. She can't walk 10 feet without being out of breath and its a d_mn shame because the rest of her body is in pretty good shape, all except her lungs from all those years of smoking..
I wish they would raise the price of tobacco so high, no one could afford it.. That might save hundereds, probably thousands of people per year from dying of cancer and other horrible diseases from smoking..
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Edited on 6/23/2004 10:30 AM
Post by: card79 on June 23, 2004, 10:37:03 AM
I don't want the smoke and that is my choice. I dipped snuff for 14 years and people would always rip at that and I always said well atleast the only person I hurt was myself, but come on people isn't this getting crazy. Why don't they just ban tobacco usage all together and get it over with. The government can hold our hand through life telling us what is good and what is bad and keep us safe.
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.
Post by: rollingthunder on June 23, 2004, 10:38:50 AM
behind the seating area but some don't abide by this rule. A
couple of years ago one of the guys was smoking a cigar and he
was actually bowling with it hanging out of his mouth. A
smoking ban would be fine with me. It would be nice to go home
after bowling and not have my clothes smell of smoke.
Edited on 6/23/2004 10:35 AM
Edited on 6/23/2004 10:36 AM
Post by: Overhand on June 23, 2004, 10:40:20 AM
quote:
Yeah, but they can't exactly step out to suck a butt real quick on an airplane, can they?
...well, they can briefly.
New house in Denver is voluntarily smokefree and doing great business.
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The engine roared as the front wheel left the pavement. The squirrel screamed in anger. The Valkyrie screamed in ecstasy. I screamed in…well…I just plain screamed.
Post by: card79 on June 23, 2004, 10:41:17 AM
First I am very sorry for your mother's illness that is always tough to see somebody you love suffer. Here comes the big but though and I am not talking about me.
We will all pass from something and unfortunately when it is our time it is our time no matter the reason. I have known quite a few that got cancer and lung diseases with never having smoked one cigarette. I agree with you though that the rude smokers need to be dealt with and I do that personally right up front. To blame disease and deaths on tobacco though I think is crazy. If these people had never used they would have died or gotten sick anyway.
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.
Post by: michelle on June 23, 2004, 10:43:28 AM
quote:quote:
If smokers can endure a 4 hr flight, surely they can endure a 3 hr league.
Bones
Yeah, but they can't exactly step out to suck a butt real quick on an airplane, can they?
I propose we figure out ways to make that possible...might help hasten the reduction in the number of inconsiderate people in the US.
Post by: jkiser01 on June 23, 2004, 10:43:39 AM
I see your point, but most of the time these diseases go right back to smoking..
I know not all the time, but most of the time that is the case..
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If they only made a ball that would carry that d*mn 10 pin..
jkiser01
Post by: intergalactic on June 23, 2004, 11:05:23 AM
Post by: MI 2 AZ on June 23, 2004, 11:36:34 AM
quote:
Will they be required to only smoke in their vehicle or home.
Card79, There was talk here a few months ago about a new ordinance that went into effect. If you smoke in your vehicles, you had to have the windows rolled up. Otherwise it would be a ticket. Reasoning was because of all the fires being started by cigarettes tossed out of vehicle windows. You can drive up and down the roads and highways and see burnt areas anywhere from a couple of feet to hundreds of feet on the sides of the roads/highways.
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I just want 2C was'zzub.
____________________________________
I am the SGT Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing!"
Post by: card79 on June 23, 2004, 11:40:19 AM
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.
Post by: DanH78 on June 23, 2004, 12:01:21 PM
quote:
I wish they would ban smoking. True, its America and everyone has rights...but it is not right that your "space" or "air" can be invaded/impacted by someone else. Would I have a right to take a boom box to bowling and crank out 100 watts of Aerosmith or something full blast. What would be the difference? Air pollution vs. noise pollution...no physical contact, both legal. I am sure it would tick off 50% of the bowlers too.
Remember the ABC tournament is non-smoking...guys go 3-6 hours without ciggys there and survive (I went with a few). How about a baseball game? Usually non-smoking these days so you don't offend people close to you and its even outdoors.
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Hey, it's not my fault I'm a lefty, I was born this way!
I think that the difference between your examples and what is being talked about here, is that ABC chose to go non smoking, and the same with baseball games. I don't see how the government should be allowed to come in to my business and tell my patrons what they can and can not do.
As long as smoking is legal, and i think it always will be based on the amount of tax dollars generated from tobacco every year, it should be up to the business owner if they want to allow smoking.
I'm a non smoker, and I choose to go to these places where smoking is allowed. Just like you can choose to go or not go.
Post by: JustinM on June 23, 2004, 12:21:14 PM
Post by: Ragnar on June 23, 2004, 12:41:12 PM
Do you smoke? Or, are you just the sucker on the end?
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"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,"
Post by: 9andaWiggle on June 23, 2004, 12:57:04 PM
quote:
I don't see how the government should be allowed to come in to my business and tell my patrons what they can and can not do.
So, you'd be OK if your customers came in with a boom box and started blaring offensive music? Or took their clothes off? OR started shooting heroin and sniffin cocaine?
Personally, I liked the comparison of noise pollution vs air pollution.
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9~
One Sick Puppy!
Post by: LuvThatWhiteDot on June 23, 2004, 01:01:42 PM
Senate boosts cigarette tax
Reversal includes compromises; House vote is next
June 23, 2004
BY CHRIS CHRISTOFF
FREE PRESS LANSING BUREAU CHIEF
LANSING -- The state Senate approved a 75-cent-per-pack tax increase on cigarettes Tuesday, breaking a budget stalemate between Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Republican lawmakers.
After the vote, Senate Majority Leader Ken Sikkema, R-Wyoming, said the Senate should reconsider a higher tax on Detroit's casinos, which it rejected last week.
He also said a tax increase on liquor is still possible.
The 20-15 Senate vote Tuesday reversed its rejection last week of a higher tobacco tax. The new tax would generate $313 million next fiscal year, according to Granholm's budget office.
And because the tax goes up July 1, it would pump $97 million into this year's budget to alleviate a shortfall in Medicaid funds.
The tax measure goes back to the House to concur in changes by the Senate or to send the bill to a conference committee.
All of the higher tax's revenues would go to state Medicaid programs, as Granholm had proposed. In 2006, one-quarter of the additional money would go to the state general fund, under the Senate-approved bill.
Taxes would also rise on other tobacco items, such as cigars and chewing tobacco.
Sikkema called the tax bill a reasonable compromise because in fiscal year 2005-06 it would dedicate 25 percent of its revenue to programs other than Medicaid.
Last week, Sikkema criticized Granholm for insisting all the increase pay for Medicaid.
"There was a sense on the Senate floor that we had to find a compromise," Sikkema said. "I hope it reflects that I'm willing to compromise."
Granholm called the Senate vote "a first step in a journey of a thousand miles" to complete work on the state budget. She said the Legislature needs to approve other proposals for additional revenue or trim spending to close a potential $1.3-billion deficit.
Last week, the Senate rejected Granholm's proposals to raise the liquor tax and reinstate a tax on estates worth more than $1 million. Sikkema said although the door is still open on liquor, the estate tax proposal is dead.
The cigarette tax would rise to $2 per pack, second highest among states after New Jersey. I'm glad I never started smoking!
Retailers complained that the increase would cost them significantly, particularly in stores near Ohio and Indiana, where cigarette taxes are considerably lower.
It's estimated the tax increase would reduce cigarette sales in Michigan by 15 percent. Granholm has said cutting smoking is one of her goals with a higher tax.
Sikkema said a higher Detroit casino tax should be part of next year's budget, thougha smaller increase than rejected last week. That proposal would have doubled the tax, from 18 percent of proceeds to 36 percent -- an increase casino owners said would result in layoffs and no expansion.
Sikkema also said he was more confident that Granholm would consider a package of Senate Republican bills that aim to improve the state's business climate by cutting business taxes.
Unlike the original Housetobacco tax bill, the Senate version would not give cigarette wholesalers and retailers a two-week grace periodto sell their remaining inventory under the higher tax beginning July 1, but pay the state the old, lower tax and keep the difference.
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White Dot
Raising kids is like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree.
http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/FBL/mkting.html
Edited on 6/23/2004 12:58 PM
Post by: DanH78 on June 23, 2004, 01:20:04 PM
quote:quote:
I don't see how the government should be allowed to come in to my business and tell my patrons what they can and can not do.
So, you'd be OK if your customers came in with a boom box and started blaring offensive music? Or took their clothes off? OR started shooting heroin and sniffin cocaine?
Personally, I liked the comparison of noise pollution vs air pollution.
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9~
One Sick Puppy!
Heroin and Cocaine are illegal, so yes I would have a problem since I, as the owner, could also get in trouble for having it on my premisis. Tobacco is not illegal by any Federal or State law. Smoking in some places, but not possession. Mere possession of herion/coke is a felony.
Again, nudity can fall under lewdness/obscene behavior is also illegal in most areas and I would potentially be liable. But let's say I own a bar, and choose to hold a wet t shirt/hot body contest. That should be my right to do so on my property. If other patrons are aware of this coming in, it's not my fault if they are offended, they chose to enter.
The boom box issue - Chances are I wouldn't like it. However, I might. It should be my choice as to whether to allow it or not. Maybe I want to hold a weekly "Boom Box Showdown" where patrons (well, if I really have to explain this concept I'm worried) Why shouldn't I be allowed? My other patrons know what to expect and if they don't like noise, well they don't have to give me their business.
Why don't some of these people that are so violently offended by cigarette smoke open a bar/restaurant/bowling center that is smoke free? They would then differentiate themselves from the competition and have a competitive advantage. Instead they go to the Gov and say since we don't like it, no one should be allowed to do it.
Post by: Hammer3003 on June 23, 2004, 01:29:31 PM
Allergies suck but when you add people smoking it is a killer.
Luckily my friends that smoke do it back behind the tables out of respect for me and the other bowlers that can not take the smoke.
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Bowl To Win!!!
Post by: 9andaWiggle on June 23, 2004, 01:38:23 PM
quote:
Why don't some of these people that are so violently offended by cigarette smoke open a bar/restaurant/bowling center that is smoke free? They would then differentiate themselves from the competition and have a competitive advantage. Instead they go to the Gov and say since we don't like it, no one should be allowed to do it.
The problem lies in the fact that 95% of smokers are inconsiderate and rude with their habit. And lets face it, the non-smoking secitons in restaurants are a joke at best. Smokers have a choice in limiting their exposure to the smoke - they can smoke or not smoke. Non-smokers have no choice when they leave their home and can go nowhere without smelling it. And the reason there isn't a non-smoking restaurant/bar/bowling alley for every one that allows smoking is because odds are you'd just split the clientelle and neither business would be profitable enough to stay open.
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9~
One Sick Puppy!
Post by: mumzie on June 23, 2004, 01:47:19 PM
When I moved back to the Portland metro area, bowling alleys were not non-smoking. One house put in smoking rooms, the other local house banned it except in the bar. The houses in Portland proper were non smoking, but others could choose. I left the smoking house, and went to the non-smoking house, partly for other reasons, but partly due to the smoke.
I was invited to join some folks at another center for monte carlo one saturday. I never gave a thought to whether the house was smoking or not. Well, it was a smoking house. By the time 3 games were done, it was so smoky the pins were blurry (and it wasn't cosmic, either). When I got home, I pulled my clothes off in the entry way of our house.
Now the whole metro area has gone non-smoking except in bars, and it makes me quite happy. Over the river in Washington, smoking is still allowed. Although the biggest money league in the area is there, I won't bowl because of smoke.
In my tournament group, there are quite a few ladies that won't bowl the Washington events due to the smoking houses.
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Ability is what you're capable of doing.
Motivation determines what you do.
Attitude determines how well you do it.
- Lou Holtz
Post by: 9andaWiggle on June 23, 2004, 01:53:28 PM
quote:
When I got home, I pulled my clothes off in the entry way of our house.
While this will help keep your house from smelling up as badly, unfortunately the stench is still left in your car.
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9~
One Sick Puppy!
Post by: rollingthunder on June 23, 2004, 01:59:00 PM
quote:quote:
Will they be required to only smoke in their vehicle or home.
Card79, There was talk here a few months ago about a new ordinance that went into effect. If you smoke in your vehicles, you had to have the windows rolled up. Otherwise it would be a ticket. Reasoning was because of all the fires being started by cigarettes tossed out of vehicle windows. You can drive up and down the roads and highways and see burnt areas anywhere from a couple of feet to hundreds of feet on the sides of the roads/highways.
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I would think tossing cigarettes out on the road would be
considered littering and if caught they should get a
ticket.
Post by: DanH78 on June 23, 2004, 02:33:58 PM
[/quote]
I didn't say one non smoking establishment for every smoking one. That would flood the market and they is no differentiation if everything is the same.
You do have a choice. You can tell business owners how you feel by not giving them your business. You can institute league rules about smoking. My Tuesday nite league did, and I have seen many others on this thread say the same thing. You can try to get the proprietor to have certain nites during the week non smoking. Try lobbying the owner to install better ventalation/purifiers.
Why must the government make all our decisions for us? I'm not against banning smoking. I'm against the government telling me what I can and can not do when there are no laws against it.
Post by: MTFD24 on June 23, 2004, 02:55:48 PM
Now NY State passed a Non-Smoking Law which rendered those 2-3 year old modifications junk.
Of course there is now no-smoking in bowling centers as well, and although it has not effected the # of bowlers per say, it has virtually killed their bar/restaurant business. Now those that would have stayed after, leave.
As stated by Bones, there now is a delay between games as smokers head outside to light up (yes, even in Buffalo snow).
Has the law helped? I believe it has and will improve peoples health down the road. But it has put a financial hurt on many business owners, especially bar/restaurants. It might not be so bad in warmer climates, but here in the northeast, people are now staying home, house parties, etc., rather than patronizing local gathering places.
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The Older We Get, The Better We Were
www.MTFD.com - a NY State Vol. Fire Department
www.BowlWNY.com - local & national stories by Joe Ciccone
http://www.FDracing.com The worlds fastest firemen in the origional Xtreme Games
24 is not my age, IQ, or bowling average, but my firematic number, at least I think that what it is
Post by: DanH78 on June 23, 2004, 03:49:34 PM
That was me defending the owner. Being an ex bartender, I think I can show you the difference (at least the difference as relayed to me during alcohol awareness training) The bowling alley isn't supplying cigarrettes. The bar is supplying alcohol. The lawsuits are brought by people injured as a result of other people drinking. They are generally named as co-defendants along side the drunk who caused the accident.
You have to be able to show proximate cause. You can prove that the accident was caused by overserving someone. You can also prove that lung disease is caused by second hand smoke. However, to link the disease to an establishment is, in my opinion anyways, a big leap. So big that a judge most likely would throw the case out. There would have to be a law against smoking, and then the establishment in question would have to break that law. Just as there are laws against over serving and serving minors.