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Author Topic: Small moves  (Read 17987 times)

Mongo

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Small moves
« on: March 17, 2014, 08:48:49 PM »
I know I'm possibly opening a big LH/RH whine-a-thon, but I'm curious.

Do any of you make small (old school) moves to help get the corners out? 

2 out of the last 3 sets I've had small transitions where I'm moving 1 and 1 or even just 1 with my feet to help get the corners out.  I've gotten in trouble with ball changes a couple of times when just a small move did the trick.

Anybody else still flashing back to the 80's like I am? 
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 10:59:51 AM »
What about the 1/2" moves up and back? 

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sgtcat09

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 11:22:33 AM »
I tend to favor ball speed/hand change over feet change.
Works better when Im leaving 10 pins, at least for me.
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Gizmo823

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 11:37:36 AM »
I'll also point out that if you're lined up correctly and making good shots, you shouldn't be leaving 10 pins.  If you do, that's an error.  You don't make adjustments off errors.   If it's transition, the math says that small of an adjustment won't work.  Also, if the pattern is 38 feet long, the ball isn't going to start magically hooking at 37 feet 6 inches just because you moved back 6 inches.  The ball stays in the oil the same length unless you're lofting over a portion of it early.  Even then, factoring in CoF for the ball staying in the oil 6 inches longer doesn't translate to the ball hooking 6 inches earlier.
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dR3w

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 12:05:16 PM »
Quote from: Gizmo823 on March 20, 2014, 11:37:36 AM
I'll also point out that if you're lined up correctly and making good shots, you shouldn't be leaving 10 pins.  If you do, that's an error.  You don't make adjustments off errors.   If it's transition, the math says that small of an adjustment won't work.  Also, if the pattern is 38 feet long, the ball isn't going to start magically hooking at 37 feet 6 inches just because you moved back 6 inches.  The ball stays in the oil the same length unless you're lofting over a portion of it early.  Even then, factoring in CoF for the ball staying in the oil 6 inches longer doesn't translate to the ball hooking 6 inches earlier.

I don't want to get into a big disagreement here, but your 6 inches analogy isn't taking everything into account.  If you assume that you will stop six inches further back on the approach and are hitting the same spot at the arrow (at an angle ... not straight in front of you) you will change the launch angle.  You will actually keep your ball further inside down lane.  If you target down the lane and hit the same spot, then your assumption is probably more valid, though the ball will have "flared" a small amount more by the time it hits the end of the pattern.  I tend to believe that small changes can be the difference between carry and no carry.  There are so many other factors here that are bowler specific.  I tend to finish up at the same spot regardless of where I start from (take longer or shorter strides), and thus my delivery will change.  Sometimes moving up for me causes me to put the ball down sooner, and I get a slightly earlier ball reaction.  Not because my ball is on the lane longer, but because my delivery changes. 

Overall I think it isn't like you move throwbot up or down the lane 6 inches and look at the results. I think moving around changes more than just the amount of time the ball is in the oil.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2014, 12:06:17 PM »
If I can't strike with my big toe on the big dot, it's everyone and everything's fault but mine.
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xrayjay

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on March 20, 2014, 12:06:17 PM
If I can't strike with my big toe on the big dot, it's everyone and everything's fault but mine.

That would mean that your little toe should be below the little dot next to the big dot. if not, it's my fault.?
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Impending Doom

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2014, 12:25:58 PM »
Listen, I bowled with Fred Flintstone, I know what works for me.
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bradl

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2014, 12:41:15 PM »
Quote from: sgtcat09 on March 20, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
I tend to favor ball speed/hand change over feet change.
Works better when Im leaving 10 pins, at least for me.

The only problem I have seen with changing these (which would be one of the last things I would change) would be that the adjustment wouldn't be consistent. You can't safely say that you could throw the ball harder, at the same speed each and every time. One shot may be faster than the next, never giving the ball time to start up or come out of the pattern where it needs to be to carry. You can at least change your position on the approach more consistently than keeping the same ball speed.

Same goes for hand position. Now, what I am meaning about hand position here is more relative to the wrist and not to the hand. I wouldn't change from having my thumb at 11 or 11:30 to 10 o'clock to carry a corner pin, as that would kill your overall hook on the ball. If I'm doing that, I may as well move right, and square up.
That also applies to the wrist as well. breaking the wrist kills the hook as well, and cuffing it more may give you a bit more end over end, but may also cause the ball to check up early, leaving you with a high hit.

BL.
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Gizmo823

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2014, 12:53:53 PM »
Yeah I know but when I had the whole rundown typed earlier it was too long for anyone to read lol.  The launch angle change was incredibly small, and there are a ridiculous amount of variables, but that's kind of my point. 

Quote from: dR3w on March 20, 2014, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: Gizmo823 on March 20, 2014, 11:37:36 AM
I'll also point out that if you're lined up correctly and making good shots, you shouldn't be leaving 10 pins.  If you do, that's an error.  You don't make adjustments off errors.   If it's transition, the math says that small of an adjustment won't work.  Also, if the pattern is 38 feet long, the ball isn't going to start magically hooking at 37 feet 6 inches just because you moved back 6 inches.  The ball stays in the oil the same length unless you're lofting over a portion of it early.  Even then, factoring in CoF for the ball staying in the oil 6 inches longer doesn't translate to the ball hooking 6 inches earlier.

I don't want to get into a big disagreement here, but your 6 inches analogy isn't taking everything into account.  If you assume that you will stop six inches further back on the approach and are hitting the same spot at the arrow (at an angle ... not straight in front of you) you will change the launch angle.  You will actually keep your ball further inside down lane.  If you target down the lane and hit the same spot, then your assumption is probably more valid, though the ball will have "flared" a small amount more by the time it hits the end of the pattern.  I tend to believe that small changes can be the difference between carry and no carry.  There are so many other factors here that are bowler specific.  I tend to finish up at the same spot regardless of where I start from (take longer or shorter strides), and thus my delivery will change.  Sometimes moving up for me causes me to put the ball down sooner, and I get a slightly earlier ball reaction.  Not because my ball is on the lane longer, but because my delivery changes. 

Overall I think it isn't like you move throwbot up or down the lane 6 inches and look at the results. I think moving around changes more than just the amount of time the ball is in the oil.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2014, 01:25:59 PM »
I have been around a lot of good/great bowlers in my life, and have never met one that made up/back adjustments on the approach unless it was to get around the ball return. 

Could anyone provide an example of someone who is above league bowler status that  actually use these adjustments this century?
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JustRico

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2014, 06:06:06 PM »
Most adjustments such as minimal lateral moves or distance are merely nothing more than a mindset that it's gonna change the roll, thus creating confidence in the swing which makes the bowler think it worked...it's generally something that can not be proven but in my belief, if the bowler thinks it works it's viable...
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xrayjay

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2014, 06:22:44 PM »
Quote from: JustRico on March 18, 2014, 07:42:34 PM
too much hit or too much speed decreases the probability of the ball slowing down correctly allowing it to create the proper angle for carry.

I'm from the "old school" days and learning not to hit the ball at the bottom took some time to get used to. Huge difference in ball motion when done right.
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JustRico

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2014, 06:26:44 PM »
Yes you got to see that one session...it can be quite noticeable
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swingset

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2014, 08:15:32 PM »
Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 20, 2014, 01:25:59 PM
I have been around a lot of good/great bowlers in my life, and have never met one that made up/back adjustments on the approach unless it was to get around the ball return. 

Could anyone provide an example of someone who is above league bowler status that  actually use these adjustments this century?

I've bowled with some good guys who do it, regional players (I've never bowled with pros nor asked them). It's not as common as it once was, and like me it's usually not the first choice but I've seen very good tourney guys move (generally up).

I am not wanting to get in a pissing match, but honestly in a tournament setting with a lot of pros, you'd have to be extremely motivated to pay attention to where everyone starts and when they adjust and compare. Have you actually done that? Who announces "Hey everyone I'm leaving 10's so here I am moving 6" back!"??

When I make a forward/backward move (which isn't often), I just do it and no one around me is seeing it. They'll notice other overt changes, but how the hell could anyone keep up with the precise start spot of a house full of A-grade bowlers throughout a whole event?

Would it validate me if I said "Norm Duke does it", nor change your mind about its effectiveness? Likely not, and if not a single pro ever changed starting positions, I'd still know from doing it that I've had good luck with it on the rare occasions it's what changed the pocket for the better.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Small moves
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2014, 08:53:25 PM »
If you mention norm duke it would do nothing to validate it.  If norm backed up 6" on the approach he would have to start on the tile, so I'm positive it's not an adjustment he uses. 

When I was bowling I didn't pay any attention to what others were doing.  But I've work with and studied under some of the greatest coaches and discussed the game with some of the best bowlers ever. 
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