BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Aloarjr810 on August 20, 2012, 10:13:01 PM
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Was reading a thread with a complaint about how a high average team on a big money league, dropped out one year and bowled on a league that used sport patterns but wasn't sanctioned as a sport league.
Then came back the next year to the big money league with a lower entering average. (They have a cap)
The big money league doesn't allow averages from sanctioned sport leagues, but since that league wasn't sanctioned as a sport league, just as a regular league they had to take them.
And now their crying foul.
I Like that term "Renegade League" a sanctioned league that use's sport/pba patterns but is not sanctioned sport.
All the years everyone complained about the easy league shot and the hi averages, now if you do bowl on a harder shot you might get labeled a sandbagger because your average is lower.
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Its league bowling, expect lots of crying and lots of working of the â€gray areaâ€.
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Change the league rules. Make your average be a composite of your highest book average for the past 2,3,4 ect seasons.
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This whining a about sandbaggers is getting out of hand.
I just read another post bowler slides on the wrong foot and is trying to change.
here's what somebody tells him.
"BUT MAKE SURE when bowling in league play, to NOT switch your stopping foot from the beggining to the end of the session, you could get called on that for an un-fair advantage."
and I thought the post complaining about the guy wiping his ball off "who never wiped it before!" was silly
what's it going to be next "Look he's wearing glasses! he didn't wear those at the beginning of the season he can see better now that's not fair."
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Again this is the problem when you have big money in handicap leagues.
You will argue that the league is scratch with a cap. And I say capping a league is just another way to handicap a league.
Without the money there is no incentive to do these things and there is always someone trying to gain an advantage using the rules.
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Pinbuster .. I'm not disagreeing with you .. having big money in a league isn't the greatest problem .. I think the greater problem is PAYOFFS! Giving the first three finishing teams the majority of the prize fund is the BIGGEST problem. Offering awards like that will entice sandbagging!
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Come on Joe. Would you rather have everyone get the same amount? That is one way to keep competitive bowlers out of a league.
Sandbagging is like porn. You know it when you see it. Or at least someone said that. Bowling in a league with sport shots not labeled a sport shot league is shady. Bowling with glasses and/or after getting lasik is the same as seeing a women in Bermuda shorts.
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Is that the choices all or nothing? Isn't there a point where TOO MUCH is TOO MUCH? It shouldn't be a SUPPORT league .. that's for SCRATCH bowlers .. when there's a handicap involved the first place team should get their money back .. this makes it a freebie for those bowlers .. once you start giving 100% profit to the first place finishers you'll see the problem of SANDBAGGERS!
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In my opinion any "BIG MONEY" putting out a shot easier than a SPORT pattern is going to have problems. There is nothing a league can do to keep this from happening.
It doesn't matter what the pattern was for the team that dropped out. They could of easily went to another league that was "THS" and kept their scores low for the year. I am sure that league didn't mind having that team in last place. It's a big flaw in the handicap system, and you add a soft condition to the mix, it's very tempting for bowlers to do this.
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Correct me if i'm wrong: But to be a certified "sport" league, don't you have to send in lane tapes each week? I know before with PBA leagues you had to do that also in order to be certified. If that is true most centers don't have the equipment to tape the lanes each week. So instead they put out the alleged pattern and certify as a regular league
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I bowl in a Friday night league that uses PBA patterns. We vote every season on being a sport certified league or not. The fact is, most of the guys don't want to pay the extra money for the USBC Sport card, so it gets voted down.
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I bowl in a Friday night league that uses PBA patterns. We vote every season on being a sport certified league or not. The fact is, most of the guys don't want to pay the extra money for the USBC Sport card, so it gets voted down.
I guess that makes you a renegade! :P
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Na, I bowl two other scratch leagues on THS, so those are the averages for my rating.
But if USBC ever goes with a combined average, then I will be one sandbagging MF'er! ;D
I bowl in a Friday night league that uses PBA patterns. We vote every season on being a sport certified league or not. The fact is, most of the guys don't want to pay the extra money for the USBC Sport card, so it gets voted down.
I guess that makes you a renegade! :P
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I bowl In 2 leagues in 2 different centers that have sport shots but are not certified sport . Both owners have told me the house has to pay more to certify. So the league would have to pay more for the card and the certification. It is voted down every year by the bowlers. In both leagues there are a few bowlers who even bag in those leagues so they can bowl classified at the USBC open only sanctioned league they will bowl in. But 98% of the bowlers try the best they can every week so they can to win. IF usbc would charge the same we might see more sport leagues. Bowlers are cheap unless it is for a new ball.
Just my .02
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Bowling's problem is how they calculate averages...
One starts at 180...and has sticks...
Bowls half a season...And now averages 200...And still has sticks...
Now to get up to 200, one has to be bowling about 220...If one started at
180...
In golf, then calulate your HDCP. on the last 10 scores posted...
In one starts out shooting 90...and then 11 scores later is posting a 79...That
90 score is tossed out...
IMO, bowling should calculate averages over a 30 game period...
After 30 games, the first 3 games score is tossed out...etc etc etc...
After 60 games, your score for games ending at 30 are tossed out...
This way you are for the most part you're using most recent scores to
calculate your average...
Now does anyone in their right mind think this will ever happen...Answer NO...
But bowlers wonder why so many have left the game...
In bowling today there are two types of bowlers...
Those who win pots and those who donate to pots...
And many of the donators are waking up...And either not getting into pots, or
simply leaving the game...
BTW in golf if one plays from the back tees, his scores are adjusted...Bowling
on a tougher pattern like the Sport shot, is like playing the back tees...
Your score will be affected...
So using a score { average } from a sports league is like turning in a golf score
played from the back tees, but you posted that score as if you played the
forward tees...
Which will get you more HDCP...
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That is true about the donators. I bowl in 2 totally different leagues in the summer. One league you are lucky if you win 5 bucks in a side pot. The other is always around 15.
As far as Hdcp. I am one of those bowlers whose average is right on the edge. I usually get between 8 and 10 sticks. I have to compete with guys who get 60 sticks on a weekly basis. It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.
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Dear milorafferty:
Perhaps there would be no complaints about you (if you bowl in other leagues), but there certainly could be many complaints if a bowler competed only once a week in a "renegade" league.
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Why doesn't the league do something like this?
For anyone who didn't bowl that league last year, their first two nights are scratch. Then, after the first two nights, they use the average they have for those first 6 games?
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It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.
Well that is the norm. It would seem odd for you to have a bad night and win. Giving up 60 sticks to someone who is truly averaging less than than you is not a problem. Its only a problem if that person is purposely keeping their average low and then pouring it on only when needed to win.
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That is true about the donators. I bowl in 2 totally different leagues in the summer. One league you are lucky if you win 5 bucks in a side pot. The other is always around 15.
As far as Hdcp. I am one of those bowlers whose average is right on the edge. I usually get between 8 and 10 sticks. I have to compete with guys who get 60 sticks on a weekly basis. It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.
That is not the entire part of the equation though, sure if you have a bad night you might not win, but if you have a bad night and the lower average bowler has a bad night as well, you will still usually win. And we all know that it's the lower average bowler who will have more bad nights.
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Why doesn't the league do something like this?
For anyone who didn't bowl that league last year, their first two nights are scratch. Then, after the first two nights, they use the average they have for those first 6 games?
Question. Is six losses important to a bagger? No. Looking at the big picture, a league has around 100 games. I would think the team of sandbaggers would sacrifice those six games at the beginning of the year.
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I read the OP one more time. I can see why the league would complain considering the ENTERING average. But at what point does the new league average take effect? Is this a complaint about entering averages only?
I personally don't care about entering averages in a league, unless there is a cap. The league will use the average that is developed during that league, I would hope.
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Just so everyone knows the original post was not about bagging for handicap. It was about entering averages.
The league placed a cap on team average, I believe because this one team won two years in a row. So they wanted to break up that team.
Here's the Org. post I read:
USBC League question- your opinion
So we have a little bit of an issue with my league, and I'm sure some of you can relate from being on both sides of the decision. Our league meeting today started at 12 noon and lasted til 3pm. It was brutal. We had a lot of issues, but this was a big one.
Background, our league has consistently been over 40 teams for years. Trios, always over $70,000 in prize funds. Big league, fun, competitive. 7 bowlers averaging 240 or better. The main issue is that we lost 4 teams last year. One team, all great bowlers, averaging 230+, because of a newly placed ceiling of 640. They won two years in a row and PER LEAGUE RULES they had to dissolve as a team because they were grandfathered in at a 670 handicap. After the cap violation was placed and on top they had a tiff with the president, they didn't bowl last winter in our league. Instead, they bowled in a PBA-X style league, however, not classified a sport league. Our league throws out sport league averages for incoming bowlers because it's a different playing field, and 210 average bowlers oft become 180 average bowlers.
The issue arose is that they three guys who were at 670+ last year, took a year off, and are now coming in at 618. They're obviously much better than that, and typically they wouldnt have been allowed to rejoin because they bowled on sport patterns, but it wasn't legitimately considered a sport bowling league. The patterns were the PBA patternss and USBC patterns, but it wasnt Sport bowling.
What do you think? Should they be allowed, after taking a year off and their averages dropping a lot because of sport shot league, to rejoin?
I personally think its an issue.
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Leagues with caps can be difficult. Does a league only use the entering average for the entire year? Can the league adopt a system that takes into consideration the developed averages during the year?
I have seen scratch leagues with a cap use a penalty for teams that develop averages above the entering cap. For instance, with a cap of 640, if the team developed a team average of 675, they would be penalized 35 pins a game. I am sure this would force this team into a sandbagging type situation to keep the penalty as small as possible, but what else can you do. By sticking to the entering average, you will get teams developing players or whole teams with lower averages just to get into the league then will bowl normal during the league.
If the league is that big, I would be tempted to make a rule that states league champions must replace one member of the team to enter the league the following year. Not sure if this would prevent sandbagging, but it could prevent the same team winning over and over.
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Not knowing all the ins and outs of the money lg's rules, I'd suspect before the next season the lg could adopt some new rules (maybe take highest average 3 yrs back) to control such shenanigans. If not, I bet teams would walk.
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Here is the catch 22 of leagues. You want a league to grow to attract more bowlers. As you add more bowlers, the league begins to pay more. As the league becomes a money league, it doesn't take long until the 4 or 5 best bowlers team up win the league on a regular basis and drive away teams. The league dies.
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I agree with txbowler but the real problem I see is that most bowlers aren't willing to get better to compete with the best players in league. They'd rather have a league structure that favors a once a week player who never practices.
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I agree with txbowler but the real problem I see is that most bowlers aren't willing to get better to compete with the best players in league. They'd rather have a league structure that favors a once a week player who never practices.
Another reason why "THS" must go.
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Our Men's league uses composite average for the first 9 games. After that, current averages are used. Team vs Team is based on Pct of difference in avg. For example, if the higher team 5 man avg is 1050 and the opposing team avg is 850, then the lower team gets 90% of 200 pins for handicap each game. This way we don't have to worry about one individual averaging 240 or any other kind of caps. We have eliminated all individual and team game/series money, so it is all in position.
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Here is one from our location. League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center. These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com. If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.
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Here is one from our location. League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center. These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com. If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.
So the league bowled as a unsanctioned league. the averages from that league mean nothing.
They can't be used anywhere else, unless a league or tournament says they'll take unsanctioned averages which I've never seen one that did.
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An example. Bowler bowls in a sanctioned league and averages 167. Averages 195 in the sanctioned league. It is certainly something that would give tournament directors pause if they knew of the unsanctioned average. Bowler then whacks local tournament averaging way over the 167. Guess bowlers will just have to take it and like it.
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An example. Bowler bowls in a sanctioned league and averages 167. Averages 195 in the sanctioned league. It is certainly something that would give tournament directors pause if they knew of the unsanctioned average. Bowler then whacks local tournament averaging way over the 167. Guess bowlers will just have to take it and like it.
As long as it meets the mininum required games rule, the higher sanctioned average would be the one to use (195).
A higher average in an unsanctioned league does not necessarily mean the person is sandbagging in sanctioned leagues. What happens if the unsanctioned league is unsanctioned because they are using an even greater Wall to help create those scores, a wall that exceeds the USBC rules, thus the loss of sanctioning? Or maybe they allow the bowlers to go past the foul line, something like that to help create higher scores (or they really are using bumpers to bowl)? Does not mean the talent is really there.
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I meant 195 in the unsanctioned league. And the unsanctioned league is on the same shot as all the other sanctioned leagues in the center.
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I don't think it was bagging. Do I think they did it on purpose because the league and president pissed them off? Yes. Do I think they should be allowed in the league this year? Yes.
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Handicap tournaments have always been a crap shoot. Before sport patterns guys found super tough houses to establish averages. Around here guys make liberal use of rerating, but that can lead to unfair situations too. I found myself rerated to 235 recently in a handicap tournament despite posting 226 in regular leage during the winter. The director found my summer sport league average of 211 used his own formula to extrapolate it to 235 for his tournament in lieu of a full season winter average. The difference cost us a cash in the team portion of the tournament.
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Here is one from our location. League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center. These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com. If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.
So the league bowled as a unsanctioned league. the averages from that league mean nothing.
They can't be used anywhere else, unless a league or tournament says they'll take unsanctioned averages which I've never seen one that did.
I think you are confused in that the league is not a sanctioned Sport league. That doesn't mean in isn't sanctioned by the USBC. It probably was. The center and bowlers didn't want to pay for the extra certification costs of a sport league. You can put down a flat 40 foot shot and call it a house shot and the USBC will sanction it the same as any other house shot.
Until there is a universal rating system, this argument will go on forever. Similar to what one poster said earlier about golf, the courses have slope ratings which attempt to compare the "difficulty/ease" of the course against a standard. Until that happens in bowling, and it probably never will, houses can have differing levels of difficultly in their shots, and yet all compare to the same standard in regards to their book averages.
The guys in the example did nothing wrong in regards to how the rules of the USBC apply currently. In my opinion they are cheating, but by USBC rules they did nothing wrong.
I think that Kegel tried to start moving towards a standard with their red/white/blue league shots, but that is just a first step. So much more would need to be done. Bowling really needs some sort of slope rating to make competition in tournaments more equitable.
Just my 2 cents.
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We had a center put down what he called a "Reality" shot about 10 years ago. He didn't want to go thru the hoops of sanctioning sport and sending tapes each week, so it was a regular league that also was scratch. Only 3 guys averaged over 200 for the entire season. A couple of the guys who only bowled in this league that season got to take averages the next year in city and state championships that were as many as 35 pins lower. Needless to say, the center owner got called out on it but there wasn't much anyone could do about it as Sport was still in it's infancy
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I think you are confused in that the league is not a sanctioned Sport league. That doesn't mean in isn't sanctioned by the USBC. It probably was. The center and bowlers didn't want to pay for the extra certification costs of a sport league. You can put down a flat 40 foot shot and call it a house shot and the USBC will sanction it the same as any other house shot.
Until there is a universal rating system, this argument will go on forever. Similar to what one poster said earlier about golf, the courses have slope ratings which attempt to compare the "difficulty/ease" of the course against a standard. Until that happens in bowling, and it probably never will, houses can have differing levels of difficultly in their shots, and yet all compare to the same standard in regards to their book averages.
The guys in the example did nothing wrong in regards to how the rules of the USBC apply currently. In my opinion they are cheating, but by USBC rules they did nothing wrong.
I think that Kegel tried to start moving towards a standard with their red/white/blue league shots, but that is just a first step. So much more would need to be done. Bowling really needs some sort of slope rating to make competition in tournaments more equitable.
Just my 2 cents.
Not a sport league, just unsanctioned. They were trying to prove a point to the local association.
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Here is one from our location. League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center. These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com. If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.
So the league bowled as a unsanctioned league. the averages from that league mean nothing.
They can't be used anywhere else, unless a league or tournament says they'll take unsanctioned averages which I've never seen one that did.
I think you are confused in that the league is not a sanctioned Sport league. That doesn't mean in isn't sanctioned by the USBC. It probably was. The center and bowlers didn't want to pay for the extra certification costs of a sport league.
No confusion here.
The original post of this thread is about a league that used sports shots but didn't sanction as a sport league, but was sanctioned as a regular league.
The part you quoted above is not about that. It was about a unsanctioned league and how the averages from that league don't count as sanctioned averages that would go into the yearbook.
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Everything is relative.
People with lower averages ALWAYS complain about sandbaggers.
People with higher averages ALWAYS complain about handicap.
People with tons of hand release ALWAYS complain about drier condition being unfair.
People with weak releases ALWAYS complain about oily conditions being unfair.
THERE IS NO WAY TO ALWAYS MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE!
As long as there is a system involved, there will ALWAYS be a way to manipulate that system to provide some type of advantage to those that have figured out how to manipulate it.
The only real solution is for the bowlers to take things into their own hands and do something to level the playing field.
If you are tired of getting beaten, then go practice and get better. If you are waiting for some SYSTEM to help you make up for your personal lack of ability to score, then that's the REAL problem
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Everything is relative.
People with lower averages ALWAYS complain about sandbaggers.
People with higher averages ALWAYS complain about handicap.
People with tons of hand release ALWAYS complain about drier condition being unfair.
People with weak releases ALWAYS complain about oily conditions being unfair.
THERE IS NO WAY TO ALWAYS MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE!
As long as there is a system involved, there will ALWAYS be a way to manipulate that system to provide some type of advantage to those that have figured out how to manipulate it.
The only real solution is for the bowlers to take things into their own hands and do something to level the playing field.
If you are tired of getting beaten, then go practice and get better. If you are waiting for some SYSTEM to help you make up for your personal lack of ability to score, then that's the REAL problem
BINGO...Triple AAA+++
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Everything is relative.
People with lower averages ALWAYS complain about sandbaggers.
People with higher averages ALWAYS complain about handicap.
People with tons of hand release ALWAYS complain about drier condition being unfair.
People with weak releases ALWAYS complain about oily conditions being unfair.
THERE IS NO WAY TO ALWAYS MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE!
As long as there is a system involved, there will ALWAYS be a way to manipulate that system to provide some type of advantage to those that have figured out how to manipulate it.
The only real solution is for the bowlers to take things into their own hands and do something to level the playing field.
If you are tired of getting beaten, then go practice and get better. If you are waiting for some SYSTEM to help you make up for your personal lack of ability to score, then that's the REAL problem
I agree
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here is my 2 cents on tougher leagues...
why should someone be punished for wanting a challenge???
i mean if the owner of a Bowling Alley, wants to put down a tougher shot for his league bowlers to bowl on without having to jump through all the hoops of it being a Sport shot league... then kudos to him..
And as i've always said real bowlers should be jumping at the opportunity to bowl on these conditions.
Now what is the difference from someone going from one easy shot league, to the next year bowling in a house that plays tougher??? and him knowing that his average might be lower??? yes it wont affect him till the next year but it is still the same idea...
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here is my 2 cents on tougher leagues...
why should someone be punished for wanting a challenge???
i mean if the owner of a Bowling Alley, wants to put down a tougher shot for his league bowlers to bowl on without having to jump through all the hoops of it being a Sport shot league... then kudos to him..
And as i've always said real bowlers should be jumping at the opportunity to bowl on these conditions.
Now what is the difference from someone going from one easy shot league, to the next year bowling in a house that plays tougher??? and him knowing that his average might be lower??? yes it wont affect him till the next year but it is still the same idea...
Because people bowl in tournaments, locally, regionally and nationally using a book average that is based on the league(s), they bowl in. People who bowl on a tough shot will have a reduced average, and will have more handicap. They will have an "unfair" advantage in handicap tournaments.
Some people will not have the option to bowl in "tougher" league conditions, if the centers in their area don't support that. And even if they did, it would be hard to find one that does it several nights a week ... because some people don't want to only bowl once a week, and the tournament will only take the highest average. And what would the average difference be between a center that puts down 30 foot flat, and a one that puts down 40 foot flat or PBAx shots? How about a reverse block league, ... or a 55 foot shot league? Would you want to bowl against someone who established an average on a ridiculously hard shot, when you know that on a simple house shot they could easily average 230+, but can't average 200 on the ridiculous conditions?
I go back to my original reply, the USBC does nothing to try to make things equivalent from center to center or league to league. I give kudo's to the guys who want to be better, or want to be challenged. I think that is great. But that doesn't fix the problem with the USBC.
I have been bowling for a long time, just like many here. I don't spend my time bitching about handicap. I accept the way things are, and still love to bowl and compete. I just think there is inequality in bowling that isn't addressed by the USBC and probably never will be. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying bowling.
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My take on the whole thing is that in money leagues, handicap should either be non existent or be very low. "Scratch" bowlers have way too much pride to go somewhere and "average" 190 for an entire season because they know they will lose the rear ends money wise. They always look for money and to win money you have to be at your best. SO....in my opinion, in MONEY LEAGUES, there should be low to zero handicap and a team average cap entering the season. For a 4 man team, make the cap 840 and for a 5 man team, make the cap 1050. If you have any handicap, then base it off of the "average" per bowler on the team (840 by 4 is 210 and so is 1050 by 5). The higher you base handicaps from, the more you will promote sandbagging. The scratch bowlers will still show up if there is money to be made. If the league runs 40 brackets every week, they will show up.
I remember a friend of mine that bowled in a MIXED trio league that had a cap of I believe 630. I remember him saying also that in any given night, you could make close to $1000 night in brackets and other side action. That league also filled pretty close to the entire center.
I bowled in a league two years ago where a team walks in and wins the first third and then turns around and bags the rest of the season to get as much handicap as possible for the rolloffs. It wasnt a huge decline in average; but noticable. Everyone on the team was about 10+ pins down in average at week 34 than where they were at week 12. The only way to discourage sandbagging is not to give them a reason to.
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Because people bowl in tournaments, locally, regionally and nationally using a book average that is based on the league(s), they bowl in. People who bowl on a tough shot will have a reduced average, and will have more handicap. They will have an "unfair" advantage in handicap tournaments.
Some people will not have the option to bowl in "tougher" league conditions, if the centers in their area don't support that. And even if they did, it would be hard to find one that does it several nights a week ... because some people don't want to only bowl once a week, and the tournament will only take the highest average. And what would the average difference be between a center that puts down 30 foot flat, and a one that puts down 40 foot flat or PBAx shots? How about a reverse block league, ... or a 55 foot shot league? Would you want to bowl against someone who established an average on a ridiculously hard shot, when you know that on a simple house shot they could easily average 230+, but can't average 200 on the ridiculous conditions?
I go back to my original reply, the USBC does nothing to try to make things equivalent from center to center or league to league. I give kudo's to the guys who want to be better, or want to be challenged. I think that is great. But that doesn't fix the problem with the USBC.
I have been bowling for a long time, just like many here. I don't spend my time bitching about handicap. I accept the way things are, and still love to bowl and compete. I just think there is inequality in bowling that isn't addressed by the USBC and probably never will be. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying bowling.
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ok, so here is another situation you might encounter...
guy 1 bowls once a week in a tougher house... old wood lanes dead side boards and a older oil machine....the oil pattern varies a bit every week because of the lanes and the machine.. even though this guy is very accurate with his shots he just cant seem to get his average over 200...
his average for the year is mid 190's
guy 2, bowls 2 times a week in a cake house that caters to the THB, and his average is 220 in both leagues.. he belongs to the BOTM club and has every ball drilled to go long and hook... his accuracy is average at best...
this is typical of some cities ... i dont consider it sandbagging.. I just think its more of someone bowling with what he has access too..
I myself am driving 45miles south just to bowl in 1 league this year because it's a scratch league and i am sick of dealing with the local bowling alley that is 3 miles away..
I am sure my average will drop a bit.. but i do not consider it sandbagging...
the owner of the place i am bowling at this year even told me, its a House shot, but it's not your typical house shot, and every pair of lanes play different..
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From my interpretation of USBC rules and regulations. Renegade Leagues are legal. Every association should have a Renegade League. So let's get this thing going. It appears the only way the USBC will listen when it becomes a big enough problem.