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Author Topic: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now  (Read 12930 times)

Aloarjr810

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So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« on: August 20, 2012, 10:13:01 PM »
Was reading a thread with a complaint about how a high average team on a big money league, dropped out one year and bowled on a league that used sport patterns but wasn't sanctioned as a sport league.

Then came back the next year to the big money league with a lower entering average. (They have a cap)

The big money league doesn't allow averages from sanctioned sport leagues, but since that league wasn't sanctioned as a sport league, just as a regular league they had to take them.

And now their crying foul.

I Like that term "Renegade League" a sanctioned league that use's sport/pba patterns but is not sanctioned sport.

All the years everyone complained about the easy league shot and the hi averages, now if you do bowl on a harder shot you might get labeled a sandbagger because your average is lower.

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calired67

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 03:08:33 PM »
That is true about the donators. I bowl in 2 totally different leagues in the summer. One league you are lucky if you win 5 bucks in a side pot. The other is always around 15.

As far as Hdcp. I am one of those bowlers whose average is right on the edge. I usually get between 8 and 10 sticks. I have to compete with guys who get 60 sticks on a weekly basis. It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.
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Mighty Fish

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 06:03:03 PM »
Dear milorafferty:

Perhaps there would be no complaints about you (if you bowl in other leagues), but there certainly could be many complaints if a bowler competed only once a week in a "renegade" league.
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Quadrajet

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 01:45:58 AM »
Why doesn't the league do something like this?

For anyone who didn't bowl that league last year, their first two nights are scratch.  Then, after the first two nights, they use the average they have for those first 6 games?
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trash heap

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 09:43:55 AM »
Quote from: calired67 on August 21, 2012, 03:08:33 PM
It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.

Well that is the norm. It would seem odd for you to have a bad night and win. Giving up 60 sticks to someone who is truly averaging less than than you is not a problem. Its only a problem if that person is purposely keeping their average low and then pouring it on only when needed to win.
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milorafferty

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 09:48:04 AM »
Quote from: calired67 on August 21, 2012, 03:08:33 PM
That is true about the donators. I bowl in 2 totally different leagues in the summer. One league you are lucky if you win 5 bucks in a side pot. The other is always around 15.

As far as Hdcp. I am one of those bowlers whose average is right on the edge. I usually get between 8 and 10 sticks. I have to compete with guys who get 60 sticks on a weekly basis. It is a hdcp league and I have to make sure I dont have a bad night in order to win. Any sport with hdcp has the same problems.

That is not the entire part of the equation though, sure if you have a bad night you might not win, but if you have a bad night and the lower average bowler has a bad night as well, you will still usually win. And we all know that it's the lower average bowler who will have more bad nights.
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trash heap

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »
Quote from: Quadrajet on August 22, 2012, 01:45:58 AM
Why doesn't the league do something like this?

For anyone who didn't bowl that league last year, their first two nights are scratch.  Then, after the first two nights, they use the average they have for those first 6 games?


Question.  Is six losses important to a bagger? No. Looking at the big picture, a league has around 100 games. I would think the team of sandbaggers would sacrifice those six games at the beginning of the year.

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spmcgivern

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 10:21:18 AM »
I read the OP one more time.  I can see why the league would complain considering the ENTERING average.  But at what point does the new league average take effect?  Is this a complaint about entering averages only?

I personally don't care about entering averages in a league, unless there is a cap.  The league will use the average that is developed during that league, I would hope.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 10:35:15 AM »
Just so everyone knows the original post was not about bagging for handicap. It was about entering averages.

The league placed a cap on team average, I believe because this one team won two years in a row. So they wanted to break up that team.

Here's the Org. post I read:
Quote
USBC League question- your opinion
So we have a little bit of an issue with my league, and I'm sure some of you can relate from being on both sides of the decision. Our league meeting today started at 12 noon and lasted til 3pm. It was brutal. We had a lot of issues, but this was a big one.

Background, our league has consistently been over 40 teams for years. Trios, always over $70,000 in prize funds. Big league, fun, competitive. 7 bowlers averaging 240 or better. The main issue is that we lost 4 teams last year. One team, all great bowlers, averaging 230+, because of a newly placed ceiling of 640. They won two years in a row and PER LEAGUE RULES they had to dissolve as a team because they were grandfathered in at a 670 handicap. After the cap violation was placed and on top they had a tiff with the president, they didn't bowl last winter in our league. Instead, they bowled in a PBA-X style league, however, not classified a sport league. Our league throws out sport league averages for incoming bowlers because it's a different playing field, and 210 average bowlers oft become 180 average bowlers.

The issue arose is that they three guys who were at 670+ last year, took a year off, and are now coming in at 618. They're obviously much better than that, and typically they wouldnt have been allowed to rejoin because they bowled on sport patterns, but it wasn't legitimately considered a sport bowling league. The patterns were the PBA patternss and USBC patterns, but it wasnt Sport bowling.

What do you think? Should they be allowed, after taking a year off and their averages dropping a lot because of sport shot league, to rejoin?

I personally think its an issue.

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spmcgivern

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 11:05:16 AM »
Leagues with caps can be difficult.  Does a league only use the entering average for the entire year?  Can the league adopt a system that takes into consideration the developed averages during the year? 

I have seen scratch leagues with a cap use a penalty for teams that develop averages above the entering cap.  For instance, with a cap of 640, if the team developed a team average of 675, they would be penalized 35 pins a game.  I am sure this would force this team into a sandbagging type situation to keep the penalty as small as possible, but what else can you do.  By sticking to the entering average, you will get teams developing players or whole teams with lower averages just to get into the league then will bowl normal during the league. 

If the league is that big, I would be tempted to make a rule that states league champions must replace one member of the team to enter the league the following year.  Not sure if this would prevent sandbagging, but it could prevent the same team winning over and over.
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Spider Man

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 11:20:55 AM »
Not knowing all the ins and outs of the money lg's rules, I'd suspect before the next season the lg could adopt some new rules (maybe take highest average 3 yrs back) to control such shenanigans. If not, I bet teams would walk.
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txbowler

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 02:49:59 PM »
Here is the catch 22 of leagues.  You want a league to grow to attract more bowlers.  As you add more bowlers, the league begins to pay more.  As the league becomes a money league, it doesn't take long until the 4 or 5 best bowlers team up win the league on a regular basis and drive away teams.  The league dies.
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Urethane Game

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 07:30:51 AM »
I agree with txbowler but the real problem I see is that most bowlers aren't willing to get better to compete with the best players in league.  They'd rather have a league structure that favors a once a week player who never practices. 
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trash heap

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 08:09:51 AM »
Quote from: Urethane Game on August 23, 2012, 07:30:51 AM
I agree with txbowler but the real problem I see is that most bowlers aren't willing to get better to compete with the best players in league.  They'd rather have a league structure that favors a once a week player who never practices. 

Another reason why "THS" must go.
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dmonroe814

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2012, 10:10:33 AM »
Our Men's league uses composite average for the first 9 games.  After that, current averages are used.  Team vs Team is based on Pct of difference in avg.  For example, if the higher team 5 man avg is 1050 and the opposing team avg is 850, then the lower team gets 90% of 200 pins for handicap each game.  This way we don't have to worry about one individual averaging  240 or any other kind of caps.  We have eliminated all individual and team game/series money, so it is all in position.
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bowl400

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Re: So renegade leagues is the new sandbagging now
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2012, 06:12:56 PM »
Here is one from our location.  League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center.  These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com.  If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.
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