Here is one from our location.  League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center.  These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com.  If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.

So the league bowled as a unsanctioned league. the averages from that league mean nothing.
They can't be used anywhere else, unless a league or tournament says they'll take unsanctioned averages which I've never seen one that did.

An example.  Bowler bowls in a sanctioned league and averages 167.  Averages 195 in the sanctioned league.  It is certainly something that would give tournament directors pause if they knew of the unsanctioned average.  Bowler then whacks local tournament averaging way over the 167.  Guess bowlers will just have to take it and like it.

As long as it meets the mininum required games rule, the higher sanctioned average would be the one to use (195).

A higher average in an unsanctioned league does not necessarily mean the person is sandbagging in sanctioned leagues.  What happens if the unsanctioned league is unsanctioned because they are using an even greater Wall to help create those scores, a wall that exceeds the USBC rules, thus the loss of sanctioning?  Or maybe they allow the bowlers to go past the foul line, something like that to help create higher scores (or they really are using bumpers to bowl)?  Does not mean the talent is really there.

I don't think it was bagging. Do I think they did it on purpose because the league and president pissed them off? Yes. Do I think they should be allowed in the league this year? Yes.

Quote from: bowl400 on August 23, 2012, 06:12:56 PM

Here is one from our location.  League gets mad a local association so they bowl as an unsanctioned league in a different center.  These averages never make it into the association book and bowl.com.  If it wasn't for the fact that a few of the bowlers in this league are among the most notorious baggers in the area, it may have gone unnoticed.

So the league bowled as a unsanctioned league. the averages from that league mean nothing.
They can't be used anywhere else, unless a league or tournament says they'll take unsanctioned averages which I've never seen one that did.

I think you are confused in that the league is not a sanctioned Sport league.  That doesn't mean in isn't sanctioned by the USBC.  It probably was.  The center and bowlers didn't want to pay for the extra certification costs of a sport league.  You can put down a flat 40 foot shot and call it a house shot and the USBC will sanction it the same as any other house shot.

Until there is a universal rating system, this argument will go on forever.  Similar to what one poster said earlier about golf, the courses have slope ratings which attempt to compare the "difficulty/ease" of the course against a standard.  Until that happens in bowling, and it probably never will, houses can have differing levels of difficultly in their shots, and yet all compare to the same standard in regards to their book averages.

The guys in the example did nothing wrong in regards to how the rules of the USBC apply currently.  In my opinion they are cheating, but by USBC rules they did nothing wrong. 

I think that Kegel tried to start moving towards a standard with their red/white/blue league shots, but that is just a first step.  So much more would need to be done.  Bowling really needs some sort of slope rating to make competition in tournaments more equitable.

Just my 2 cents.

I think you are confused in that the league is not a sanctioned Sport league.  That doesn't mean in isn't sanctioned by the USBC.  It probably was.  The center and bowlers didn't want to pay for the extra certification costs of a sport league.  You can put down a flat 40 foot shot and call it a house shot and the USBC will sanction it the same as any other house shot.

Until there is a universal rating system, this argument will go on forever.  Similar to what one poster said earlier about golf, the courses have slope ratings which attempt to compare the "difficulty/ease" of the course against a standard.  Until that happens in bowling, and it probably never will, houses can have differing levels of difficultly in their shots, and yet all compare to the same standard in regards to their book averages.

The guys in the example did nothing wrong in regards to how the rules of the USBC apply currently.  In my opinion they are cheating, but by USBC rules they did nothing wrong. 

I think that Kegel tried to start moving towards a standard with their red/white/blue league shots, but that is just a first step.  So much more would need to be done.  Bowling really needs some sort of slope rating to make competition in tournaments more equitable.

Just my 2 cents.

Not a sport league, just unsanctioned.  They were trying to prove a point to the local association.

 Everything is relative.
 People with lower averages ALWAYS complain about sandbaggers.
 People with higher averages ALWAYS complain about handicap.
 People with tons of hand release ALWAYS complain about drier condition being unfair.
 People with weak releases ALWAYS complain about oily conditions being unfair.

 THERE IS NO WAY TO ALWAYS MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE!

 As long as there is a system involved, there will ALWAYS be a way to manipulate that system to provide some type of advantage to those that have figured out how to manipulate it.

 The only real solution is for the bowlers to take things into their own hands and do something to level the playing field.
 If you are tired of getting beaten, then go practice and get better. If you are waiting for some SYSTEM to help you make up for your personal lack of ability to score, then that's the REAL problem

Everything is relative.
 People with lower averages ALWAYS complain about sandbaggers.
 People with higher averages ALWAYS complain about handicap.
 People with tons of hand release ALWAYS complain about drier condition being unfair.
 People with weak releases ALWAYS complain about oily conditions being unfair.

 THERE IS NO WAY TO ALWAYS MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE!

 As long as there is a system involved, there will ALWAYS be a way to manipulate that system to provide some type of advantage to those that have figured out how to manipulate it.

 The only real solution is for the bowlers to take things into their own hands and do something to level the playing field.
 If you are tired of getting beaten, then go practice and get better. If you are waiting for some SYSTEM to help you make up for your personal lack of ability to score, then that's the REAL problem

I agree

here is my 2 cents on tougher leagues...

why should someone be punished for wanting a challenge???

i mean if the owner of a Bowling Alley, wants to put down a tougher shot for his league bowlers to bowl on without having to jump through all the hoops of it being a Sport shot league...  then kudos to him.. 

And as i've always said real bowlers should be jumping at the opportunity to bowl on these conditions.

Now what is the difference from someone going from one easy shot league, to the next year bowling in a house that plays tougher???  and him knowing that his average might be lower???  yes it wont affect him till the next year but it is still the same idea...   

Because people bowl in tournaments, locally, regionally and nationally using a book average that is based on the league(s), they bowl in.  People who bowl on a tough shot will have a reduced average, and will have more handicap. They will have an "unfair" advantage in handicap tournaments.

Some people will not have the option to bowl in "tougher" league conditions, if the centers in their area don't support that.  And even if they did, it would be hard to find one that does it several nights a week ... because some people don't want to only bowl once a week, and the tournament will only take the highest average.  And what would the average difference be between a center that puts down 30 foot flat, and a one that puts down 40 foot flat or PBAx shots?    How about a reverse block league, ... or a 55 foot shot league?  Would you want to bowl against someone who established an average on a ridiculously hard shot, when you know that on a simple house shot they could easily average 230+, but can't average 200 on the ridiculous conditions?

I go back to my original reply, the USBC does nothing to try to make things equivalent from center to center or league to league.  I give kudo's to the guys who want to be better, or want to be challenged.  I think that is great.  But that doesn't fix the problem with the USBC.

I have been bowling for a long time, just like many here.  I don't spend my time bitching about handicap.  I accept the way things are, and still love to bowl and compete.  I just think there is inequality in bowling that isn't addressed by the USBC and probably never will be.  I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying bowling.