Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 01:36:40 PM
How in the hell am I suppose to beat that ?
***10/20/08 Update***
I just received this response from USBC about handicap scores going over 300/900 handicap:
" Leagues have the ability to put a cap on handicap scores that would prevent any scores above 300 or 900 from being recorded.
Two years ago at the National convention, delegates voted against a proposal that would do the same thing in tournaments.
In short, leagues would be able to put in place such a rule at the leagues organizational meeting, however, a tournament director may not put such a rule in place "
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/20/2008 2:15 PM
Post by: Maine Man on October 15, 2008, 09:38:12 PM
--------------------
MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 09:39:31 PM
So most I can shoot is 903
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Maine Man on October 15, 2008, 09:41:13 PM
--------------------
MainePBA
"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."
Post by: NtheDitch on October 15, 2008, 09:41:31 PM
--------------------
"Don"t leave it if you can't pick it up"
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 09:45:05 PM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 09:46:29 PM
I mean what if I really would have shot a 900 and I beat by some shooting over that with handicap ? Something not right there at all.
What about if you shoot 300 and shoots over that with handicap ? Noone thinks the rules should changed ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 09:54:35 PM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: NtheDitch on October 15, 2008, 09:56:14 PM
--------------------
"Don"t leave it if you can't pick it up"
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 09:58:52 PM
quote:
the solution is either take it like a man or move on to better leagues that have a min cap per team.
lol...How are you suppose to "take it like a man" what you shoot a perfect game and get beat ?
Explain how even when you shoot the best possible score in the whole game and get beat by "free pins" and a lucky night ?
Show me some leagues around mt area..actually my whole county, with scratch leagues or team cap leagues
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/15/2008 9:59 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 10:05:14 PM
quote:
somebody call Guinness, i just agreed with 302. rules that allow someone to score, with handicap, higher than the maximum possible scratch score of 300/900, need to be abolished.
if i shoot 300 scratch, i expect to win UNLESS my opponent also shot 300 scratch, not lose because he shot 215 scratch and 305 handicap.
Totally agree with this:
"if i shoot 300 scratch, i expect to win UNLESS my opponent also shot 300 scratch, not lose because he shot 215 scratch and 305 handicap."
I mean if someone can shoot over the max someone can shoot scratch, something is wrong...lol
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 10:12:27 PM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: tdbowler on October 15, 2008, 10:20:57 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 10:27:05 PM
quote:
even if you are only getting 1 pin of handicap and shoot 300 you are over the maximum that a scratch bowler can shoot, so your saying that all handicap should be eliminated?
Man your just making it hard..Yo know what I'm talking about
I never said all handicap should be eliminated, what I'm saying is someone shoots 300 scratch, they should not be able to be beat by handicap over 300.
For Gods sake, someone shoots the highest score you can roll and someone getting pins can go over that ? You don't see a problem with that ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 10:34:23 PM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: tdbowler on October 15, 2008, 10:39:46 PM
I bowl on a 3 man handicap league on a 20 point system were you bowl for team points and individual points and my whole team gets 0 handicap and we have made the league roll off 10 of the last 12 years and typically it is the highest average teams that are in the roll off.
So no I don't really see it as a problem!
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 10:42:48 PM
quote:
More often than not the higher average bowler is still going to come out on top in handicap leagues. Nights like this happen, but if you bowl that same guy 10 weeks in a row you are going to beat him like 8 or 9 of those weeks.
I bowl on a 3 man handicap league on a 20 point system were you bowl for team points and individual points and my whole team gets 0 handicap and we have made the league roll off 10 of the last 12 years and typically it is the highest average teams that are in the roll off.
So no I don't really see it as a problem!
agreed!but it still hurts when you get stung.
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: TWOHAND834 on October 15, 2008, 10:44:02 PM
--------------------
Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 10:45:22 PM
quote:
More often than not the higher average bowler is still going to come out on top in handicap leagues. Nights like this happen, but if you bowl that same guy 10 weeks in a row you are going to beat him like 8 or 9 of those weeks.
I bowl on a 3 man handicap league on a 20 point system were you bowl for team points and individual points and my whole team gets 0 handicap and we have made the league roll off 10 of the last 12 years and typically it is the highest average teams that are in the roll off.
So no I don't really see it as a problem!
I'm not talking about over a total period of time. I'm talking about shooting a 300 game scratch and losing the game.
Last week I had no handicap, this week I had one...So lets say I shoot 3 x 300 for a 900 set scratch. Lets say the guy I'm bowling against gets 30 pins and he shoots 278 every game scratch.
Should I really lose every point ? Shooting a 900 scratch set and lose ?!?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/15/2008 10:46 PM
Post by: tdbowler on October 15, 2008, 10:50:44 PM
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 10:51:58 PM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: 302efi on October 15, 2008, 10:52:40 PM
Should someone really lose after shooting a 900 set scratch to a handicap set over 900 ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: six pack on October 15, 2008, 10:56:26 PM
quote:
if those are the rules you agreed to when you joined then yes.
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
see above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: tdbowler on October 15, 2008, 11:09:40 PM
Also if I just got done shooting 900, I would probably give a crap if I won or lost, I'd be heading to the bar to celebrate!
Edited on 10/15/2008 11:11 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on October 15, 2008, 11:22:29 PM
quote:
Never answered my question...
Should someone really lose after shooting a 900 set scratch to a handicap set over 900 ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
No, the rule should be amended so that NOBODY, scratch or otherwise, can shoot a score in excess of the maximum allowable score, i.e. 300 game or 900 series.
--------------------
Norm Duke was right
Good transactions list in my profile
My Bowl.com member page (http://"http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=2243&suffix=4831")
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on October 15, 2008, 11:49:23 PM
quote:
Also if I just got done shooting 900, I would probably give a crap if I won or lost, I'd be heading to the bar to celebrate!
Edited on 10/15/2008 11:11 PM
Finally a voice of reason. If you shot 900, you wouldn't remember what the other guy shot....
--------------------
Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 15, 2008, 11:52:06 PM
That, my friends, is why I only bowl handicap when it's the ONLY option.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 12:08:56 AM
quote:
Yes!!! You should loose. You signed up for the league with full knowledge of the rules. You really can't complain about the rules after the fact. It has happened to many a high average bowler in handicap leagues. This isn't a first or a last. Again most often the high average bowler is at an advantage, but sometimes nights like that happen.
Also if I just got done shooting 900, I would probably give a crap if I won or lost, I'd be heading to the bar to celebrate!
In that case would you agree that the USBC needs to address this ?
How is fair that someone with handicap is allowed to shoot over the max someone with no handicap shoot ?
Pretty clear unfair disadvantage, no ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: tdbowler on October 16, 2008, 12:21:46 AM
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 12:28:01 AM
quote:
Even if you limit it to a high of 300/900 per game
Thats all I'm asking for...no reason a handicap bowler should be able to do that and a none handicap bowler can't.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/16/2008 0:28 AM
Post by: Urameshii6 on October 16, 2008, 02:28:44 AM
Post by: six pack on October 16, 2008, 06:30:55 AM
--------------------
The harder I try the harder they fall
Post by: echidapus on October 16, 2008, 08:25:01 AM
If someone bowls 100 pins above average one game, they are bowling out their arse and probably it will never happen again. If you don't have handicap, you will lose many bowlers, because then they can't compete.
--------------------
High game 300
High series 804
High triplicate 774
High average 221
best game. when I was 6 I bowled a 158
Post by: Jorge300 on October 16, 2008, 08:25:28 AM
quote:quote:
Yes!!! You should loose. You signed up for the league with full knowledge of the rules. You really can't complain about the rules after the fact. It has happened to many a high average bowler in handicap leagues. This isn't a first or a last. Again most often the high average bowler is at an advantage, but sometimes nights like that happen.
Also if I just got done shooting 900, I would probably give a crap if I won or lost, I'd be heading to the bar to celebrate!
In that case would you agree that the USBC needs to address this ?
How is fair that someone with handicap is allowed to shoot over the max someone with no handicap shoot ?
Pretty clear unfair disadvantage, no ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Disadvantage - No. Unfair - No! See you are too selfish and stuck on yourself to see how hypocrtitical you are being here. Think about from the other guys perspective for a minute. Here is some bowler, averaging 130-150 or whatever the case may be and they shoot a 250-260-270 game. They just had the game of their life, should they now have to accept a tie because YOU think it's unfair that with handicap they go over 300? How is that going to make that person feel. You bowled great but you can't win just because the other guy shot a 300, sorry come back next week and try to do better, oh wait, you can't no matter what you shoot. Bottom-line stop being a baby and bowl scratch leagues. Or better yet bowl a PBAX or Sport shot league and see how bad you really are.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: sheppy335 on October 16, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
--------------------
Oil is served Best with fingers!
Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!
Sheppy
Post by: triggerman on October 16, 2008, 08:40:12 AM
Oh and I do bowl in two handicap leagues as there are no scratch leagues, but my goal is to bowl them scratch and if I have to make up 40 pins on the lower guy, that is what I go out and do, its just like bowling in a acratch league from that mentality, I look at his score plus cap and I know what i have to beat
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com
Triggerman
F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud
Lane #1 Baby
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 08:47:40 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 16, 2008, 08:48:43 AM
What specifically were his scores?
Did he beat you scratch also?
If so....relax and move on...
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I once bowled in a big tourney that went on for over a month....I believe the eventual winner shot somewhere in there an 899 handicap. There were over 1400 bowlers and many bowled multiple sets to qualify. Anything over 900 handicap is really spectacular!
PPS....I am in partial agreement and undecided if scores over 300 can be allowed with handicap. More of an argument for the endless 10th frame as shown on TV recently in some of the team bowling on TV....
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: batbowler on October 16, 2008, 09:10:18 AM
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL TO WIN" and not turn from it."
Post by: jls on October 16, 2008, 09:25:32 AM
quote:
I think the USBC rules should be changed to NOT allow people to score over the maximum you can shoot scratch.
I mean what if I really would have shot a 900 and I beat by some shooting over that with handicap ? Something not right there at all.
What about if you shoot 300 and shoots over that with handicap ? Noone thinks the rules should changed ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Last year I had a friend shoot 300 twice in the wed. nite mens league. He lost both times, 304-300, and 305-300. Oh well.
--------------------
jls Vote for good, not evil.
Post by: Gazoo on October 16, 2008, 09:35:09 AM
Quote
Never answered my question...
Should someone really lose after shooting a 900 set scratch to a handicap set over 900 ?
--------------------
In a handicap league yes, in a scratch league no. No different than if I shoot a 78 in golf and lose to someone shooting a 95 and I'm giving them a stroke a hole. Remember, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.
--------------------
"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Edited on 10/16/2008 9:45 AM
Post by: DanH78 on October 16, 2008, 09:51:10 AM
quote:
I'm not talking about over a total period of time. I'm talking about shooting a 300 game scratch and losing the game.
Last week I had no handicap, this week I had one...So lets say I shoot 3 x 300 for a 900 set scratch. Lets say the guy I'm bowling against gets 30 pins and he shoots 278 every game scratch.
Should I really lose every point ? Shooting a 900 scratch set and lose ?!?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/15/2008 10:46 PM
Yes. If you don't like it, join a scratch league. Everyone gets the same percentage of handicap, it would only be unfair if you got 80% and the other guy got 90%
--------------------
It IS next year!
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 10:17:22 AM
quote:QuoteNever answered my question...Bad analogy. There is no perfect score in golf (well, technically you could ace every hole, but it's for all intents and purposes impossible). In bowling, there's a hard cap on what the best score in any one game or any three game series can be. How can you score better than perfection???
Should someone really lose after shooting a 900 set scratch to a handicap set over 900 ?
--------------------
In a handicap league yes, in a scratch league no. No different than if I shoot a 78 in golf and lose to someone shooting a 95 and I'm giving them a stroke a hole. Remember, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 16, 2008, 10:22:11 AM
The game has changed man, nobody cares who practices and has talent... It's all about the "W" baby, and you gotta be willing to do whatever it takes to get it! You gotta balance your mad skilz with some cap if you want to be the champ!
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 11:50:00 AM
quote:
I think the majority of you are missing the point, handicap is to level the field not to give a decided advantange to one player over the other, the maximum score acheivable scratch is 300-900, this should hold true for all, if the 130 bowler rolls a 255 he is probably gonna win every time, but his maximum score should be no more then the allowable scratch score IE 300, if I shoot 300 and he shoots anough to get there with cap, we tie, I have no issue with that, but with him having more handicap and thus a chance at a much higher score which I cannot get (I get 3 pins) the fairness of the handicap system went out the window as I have no way to catch him. Max score for anyone with cap should be 300-900, handicap was made to make scratch/handicap bowlers equal, not to give a decided advantage to one side or the other
Exactly my point !
Why not cap the scores at the highest acheivable scores, (300-900) ? I'm not saying do away with handicap, I saying what does it make bowling look like when someone can score over the maximum that some can actually shoot ?
I have no problem with handicap at all, but I find it unfair that even if I would have shot my best last night that I still would have lost. With my 1 pin of handicap, the highest I could have shot is 903 and I still could not have beat his 921 and that with me rolling a legit 900 series..lol
You guys dont think that the highest attainable score for all players should be equal ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 12:00:32 PM
quote:
Disadvantage - No. Unfair - No! See you are too selfish and stuck on yourself to see how hypocrtitical you are being here. Think about from the other guys perspective for a minute. Here is some bowler, averaging 130-150 or whatever the case may be and they shoot a 250-260-270 game. They just had the game of their life, should they now have to accept a tie because YOU think it's unfair that with handicap they go over 300? How is that going to make that person feel. You bowled great but you can't win just because the other guy shot a 300, sorry come back next week and try to do better, oh wait, you can't no matter what you shoot. Bottom-line stop being a baby and bowl scratch leagues. Or better yet bowl a PBAX or Sport shot league and see how bad you really are.
--------------------
Jorge300
By your post I see you have alot of hostility, but I'll give you a response.
This is not about being selfish or "stuck on myself", this is about the someone being allowed to shoot over the max attainable score. I would have no problem splitting the points if the handocap was capped at 300 for all...but if I shoot 300 legit and this guy has 42 pins handicap and shoots 260, hes allowed to score 302 ?
So my max possible is 300
His max possible score is 342
Why should he be legally alllowed to have a higher attainable score ?
Lets just cap the scores at 300 and I'd be happy to split the point(s)!
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: scotts33 on October 16, 2008, 12:00:49 PM
--------------------
Scott
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 12:03:24 PM
quote:
I didn't read thru all the responses but what is the league based on? What's the hdcp.?
--------------------
Scott
90% of 220
Once again, I have no problem with handicap, but a handicap should not allow someone to shoot over 300 or 900
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Jorge300 on October 16, 2008, 12:24:38 PM
quote:quote:
Disadvantage - No. Unfair - No! See you are too selfish and stuck on yourself to see how hypocrtitical you are being here. Think about from the other guys perspective for a minute. Here is some bowler, averaging 130-150 or whatever the case may be and they shoot a 250-260-270 game. They just had the game of their life, should they now have to accept a tie because YOU think it's unfair that with handicap they go over 300? How is that going to make that person feel. You bowled great but you can't win just because the other guy shot a 300, sorry come back next week and try to do better, oh wait, you can't no matter what you shoot. Bottom-line stop being a baby and bowl scratch leagues. Or better yet bowl a PBAX or Sport shot league and see how bad you really are.
--------------------
Jorge300
By your post I see you have alot of hostility, but I'll give you a response.
This is not about being selfish or "stuck on myself", this is about the someone being allowed to shoot over the max attainable score. I would have no problem splitting the points if the handocap was capped at 300 for all...but if I shoot 300 legit and this guy has 42 pins handicap and shoots 260, hes allowed to score 302 ?
So my max possible is 300
His max possible score is 342
Why should he be legally alllowed to have a higher attainable score ?
Lets just cap the scores at 300 and I'd be happy to split the point(s)!
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
You are stuck on yourself cause you failed to address the main point of my response....this all about why you should have to lose...why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300? You are thinking only of how this is raw deal for you, but never once did you consider the raw deal you give to lower average bowler with your "solution". I have no hostility towards anyone on this board, not worth the aggrevation, especially you. Just pointing out the hypocrite you are being is all. If you can live with it, so be it, that's your sad life then.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 12:39:18 PM
quote:
You are stuck on yourself cause you failed to address the main point of my response....this all about why you should have to lose...why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300? You are thinking only of how this is raw deal for you, but never once did you consider the raw deal you give to lower average bowler with your "solution". I have no hostility towards anyone on this board, not worth the aggrevation, especially you. Just pointing out the hypocrite you are being is all. If you can live with it, so be it, that's your sad life then.
Wow man, you must really have something going on to continue be so negitive..lol
My opinion is not a solution. Its an opinion on a messgae board of a bowling website. I didnt know we were only allowed to post to your veiws, I must have missed that memo
"why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300"
Well 300 is the "magic" number in bowling, 300 is a perfect game, you can't roll a legit game better then 300...but someone with handicap (iehelp) is allowed to ?
Talk about bowling gaining respect in the sports world, yeah that sure will happen.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 12:47:55 PM
quote:Exactly my point, and almost nobody but us seems to want to address this. How can you have a score better than what you get for a perfect game?
"why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300"
Well 300 is the "magic" number in bowling, 300 is a perfect game, you can't roll a legit game better then 300
Post by: tenpin477 on October 16, 2008, 01:00:07 PM
Now this is impossible. But how about if you shot an 18 for 18 holes and you lost in stroke play.
Nobody in this topic is saying we should completely do away with handicap. The point is the maximum possible score you can bowl is 300, and it should be that way handicap or not. 300 is the max.
And the scratch league is not always an option.
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 01:04:12 PM
^^^^^^^^I'm going to Email USBC in a few minutes and ask them their opinion on this. I'll post their response when they send me one...
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/16/2008 1:05 PM
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 16, 2008, 01:10:50 PM
quote:quote:Exactly my point, and almost nobody but us seems to want to address this. How can you have a score better than what you get for a perfect game?
"why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300"
Well 300 is the "magic" number in bowling, 300 is a perfect game, you can't roll a legit game better then 300
I think Jorge has a point... 302 knows the rules. He should prepare for and play the game better. If he needs to be shooting 330 per game and 990 for series to win, then he needs to be sandbagging a hell of a lot better than he is! The rules are clearly laid out - highest handicap plus score = winner. Therefore, since 302 does not get enough handicap to shoot 330 per game, the obvious solution, by the rules, is that he needs to lower his average in order to attain enough handicap to shoot a high enough combined score+handicap to overtake his opponents.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand. The rules are pretty black and white here.
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 01:14:00 PM
quote:quote:quote:Exactly my point, and almost nobody but us seems to want to address this. How can you have a score better than what you get for a perfect game?
"why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300"
Well 300 is the "magic" number in bowling, 300 is a perfect game, you can't roll a legit game better then 300
I think Jorge has a point... 302 knows the rules. He should prepare for and play the game better. If he needs to be shooting 330 per game and 990 for series to win, then he needs to be sandbagging a hell of a lot better than he is! The rules are clearly laid out - highest handicap plus score = winner. Therefore, since 302 does not get enough handicap to shoot 330 per game, the obvious solution, by the rules, is that he needs to lower his average in order to attain enough handicap to shoot a high enough combined score+handicap to overtake his opponents.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand. The rules are pretty black and white here.
blue]
So your saying I should intentionally cheat (sandbag) just to beat people with more more handicap then me ?!?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: scotts33 on October 16, 2008, 01:18:12 PM
BTW...is everybody in the league under 220?
--------------------
Scott
Post by: KDawg77 on October 16, 2008, 01:19:07 PM
Beating the handicapped is wrong!
--------------------
Ken
Edited on 10/16/2008 1:51 PM
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 16, 2008, 01:28:26 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:Exactly my point, and almost nobody but us seems to want to address this. How can you have a score better than what you get for a perfect game?
"why should the other bowler be forced to tie or lower his score if his total plus handicap just happens to go above 300"
Well 300 is the "magic" number in bowling, 300 is a perfect game, you can't roll a legit game better then 300
I think Jorge has a point... 302 knows the rules. He should prepare for and play the game better. If he needs to be shooting 330 per game and 990 for series to win, then he needs to be sandbagging a hell of a lot better than he is! The rules are clearly laid out - highest handicap plus score = winner. Therefore, since 302 does not get enough handicap to shoot 330 per game, the obvious solution, by the rules, is that he needs to lower his average in order to attain enough handicap to shoot a high enough combined score+handicap to overtake his opponents.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand. The rules are pretty black and white here.
blue]
So your saying I should intentionally cheat (sandbag) just to beat people with more more handicap then me ?!?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Cheating is such an ugly word. Look at it as "leveling the playing field". If the cappers are allowed the rediculously unfair advantage of being able to shoot scores plus handicap which an honest scratch score - even if absolutely perfect - can NEVER beat or even tie, well then I think you have to reconsider what cheating really is. I'd call it "an adjustment to the current playing conditions".
Just like a scratch bowler practices to hone his skills to be at his best, most competitive level for competition, so must the bowler in a handicap league prepare by maintaining a good balance of handicap that can be tapped as needed to attain victory. Since skill is less than half of the deciding factor in a handicap event, one must be willing to employ different strategies to attain a winning record.
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 01:30:20 PM
quote:
Look at it as "leveling the playing field".
I like the way you think
Point taken
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
quote:
I'd say if you don't like it 302 just bowl scratch leagues. If there are no scratch leagues.....oh well.
BTW...is everybody in the league under 220?
--------------------
Scott
As I've posted earlier, there is none nowhere in the county..lol There is a Classic league on Monday nights that capped per team and I'm on it
As far as 220 in the league, the league is made up of 30 teams, 5 man teams. There is a couple, maybe 3-4 people between 220-228 I'd say.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: rvmark on October 16, 2008, 01:48:13 PM
"What specifically were his scores?
Did he beat you scratch also?
If so....relax and move on..."
REgards,
Luckylefty
__________________________________________________
I agree lets here the rest of the story. I agree you can make an case for not giving a score above a perfect game or series.... The real question is what was his average? Handicap? Games and Series?
If the rule was changed would you have won on that given night?
If you bowled well and lost it happens, not worth blowing a gasket on. Relax and enjoy yourself and you just might have fun.
Mark
Post by: DragonLord on October 16, 2008, 01:57:45 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 02:12:11 PM
quote:
I agree lets here the rest of the story. I agree you can make an case for not giving a score above a perfect game or series.... The real question is what was his average? Handicap? Games and Series?
If the rule was changed would you have won on that given night?
If you bowled well and lost it happens, not worth blowing a gasket on. Relax and enjoy yourself and you just might have fun.
Mark
Well the other team put there highest handicap against me, the anchor. His was getting 81 pins a game. IMO opinion he shouldnt even be on thsi league..lol He just got a new ball drilled up to I beleive, it was a brand new looking Rapid Fire Pearl.
His first game was 342, second was a 302 and the last was 277 (all with handicap)
The last alot of Brooklyns, through the nose carries ect...
I shot 708 scratch, so 711 with handicap..lol
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: nutsforbowling on October 16, 2008, 02:25:00 PM
As for losing to someone with handicap, I have shot 290 scratch(305 with handicap), and lost, and didn't get mad at that. I congratulated the guy on his game(till then his highest ever), and then continued on.
The next thing you will want is if someone throws a brooklyn strike to beat you they should have to give that up too. Handicap is part of the game and is there to keep lower average bowlers from getting discouraged and quitting the game. If you start putting people at a severe disadvantage, they will quit, and then bowling will continue it's downslide.
Bowling is just a game. Unless you are making a living at it, sometimes it's better to just let things go. It will be more fun and less maddening.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 02:34:13 PM
quote:Have you ever seen 9~ post before? You should know better than to ever take anything he says seriously.
Hey 9~, I want to know which handicap tourneys you bowl in so I can avoid those.
Post by: agroves on October 16, 2008, 02:41:21 PM
quote:
Hey 9~, I want to know which handicap tourneys you bowl in so I can avoid those. I understand your thinking, but I for one could never screw up on purpose. I always thought you were supposed to try your hardest, and let the pins fall where they may. There isn't enough money to be made in leagues to try and mess up on purpose.
You don't have to "screw off" on purpose. What if I showed up to league and bowled with just a plastic ball? I did it last year for a few weeks. It doesn't mean I wasn't trying to the best of my ability. Carry is definitely tougher with a plastic ball.
I, too, think max score with handicap should be limited to 300.
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Post by: nutsforbowling on October 16, 2008, 02:56:09 PM
quote:quote:Have you ever seen 9~ post before? You should know better than to ever take anything he says seriously.
Hey 9~, I want to know which handicap tourneys you bowl in so I can avoid those.
I know, I know, it has something to do with those damn sheep of his. I have to admit it is funny as hell sometimes.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 16, 2008, 02:56:55 PM
quote:quote:quote:Have you ever seen 9~ post before? You should know better than to ever take anything he says seriously.
Hey 9~, I want to know which handicap tourneys you bowl in so I can avoid those.
I know, I know, it has something to do with those damn sheep of his. I have to admit it is funny as hell sometimes.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 16, 2008, 03:02:34 PM
You really didn't want to answer that question did ya! He had a 678....WOW!
He deserves to have his night in the sun. Fact of the matter is his average will skyrocket....and it doesn't matter if his handicap was a more fair 40 or 50. He would have whupped nearly anyone's butt that night with handicap.
Two years we had a 110 bowler shoot like a 185 the last game against our team. She bowled so good. Some guy accused her of sandbagging and sent her into tears....I was on his team....it was the only game she had all year over 150. Our team consoled her as he had sure robbed this sweetheart of a girl of the joy of this wonderful game! He didn't come back the next week.
Everyone was fine with that.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS this guys average WILL skyrocket with his new ball and he'll be tough to beat for awhile! But then....he'll slow way down.
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 03:11:39 PM
quote:
SOooooooo....
You really didn't want to answer that question did ya! He had a 678....WOW!
He deserves to have his night in the sun. Fact of the matter is his average will skyrocket....and it doesn't matter if his handicap was a more fair 40 or 50. He would have whupped nearly anyone's butt that night with handicap.
Two years we had a 110 bowler shoot like a 185 the last game against our team. She bowled so good. Some guy accused her of sandbagging and sent her into tears....I was on his team....it was the only game she had all year over 150. Our team consoled her as he had sure robbed this sweetheart of a girl of the joy of this wonderful game! He didn't come back the next week.
Everyone was fine with that.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS this guys average WILL skyrocket with his new ball and he'll be tough to beat for awhile! But then....he'll slow way down.
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
LL as I've beem saying over and over again, its not his handicap that was the problem !
The problem is the handicap allowing him to shoot over 300 or 900 !
300 & 900 are the highest & best attainable scratch scores possible, why should handicap be allowed to go over that ?
Wheres the limits ?
So If had an avg of 1, I could get 219 pins handicap and rules would allow me to shoot a 519 SINGLE game ?!
WTF ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: rvmark on October 16, 2008, 03:12:22 PM
Good luck and good bowling!
Mark
Post by: Urameshii6 on October 16, 2008, 03:14:42 PM
quote:quote:
I agree lets here the rest of the story. I agree you can make an case for not giving a score above a perfect game or series.... The real question is what was his average? Handicap? Games and Series?
If the rule was changed would you have won on that given night?
If you bowled well and lost it happens, not worth blowing a gasket on. Relax and enjoy yourself and you just might have fun.
Mark
Well the other team put there highest handicap against me, the anchor. His was getting 81 pins a game. IMO opinion he shouldnt even be on thsi league..lol He just got a new ball drilled up to I beleive, it was a brand new looking Rapid Fire Pearl.
His first game was 342, second was a 302 and the last was 277 (all with handicap)
The last alot of Brooklyns, through the nose carries ect...
I shot 708 scratch, so 711 with handicap..lol
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: MI 2 AZ on October 16, 2008, 03:39:17 PM
One problem I would see with capping a handicapped game at 300 would be the possibility of losing either the team game or the totals because of the lost pins. Guy with hdcp is limited to a 300 game but his team loses the game points by a couple of pins or he loses the individual series to you by a few pins.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: nospareball on October 16, 2008, 03:43:21 PM
Not that something like that happens very often, but probably more often than one guy shooting 300 scratch and the other shooting 300+ with cap.
--------------------
-Clint
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 03:54:05 PM
quote:
302, are there any points awarded for totals? Team points (game and series) or individual?
One problem I would see with capping a handicapped game at 300 would be the possibility of losing either the team game or the totals because of the lost pins. Guy with hdcp is limited to a 300 game but his team loses the game points by a couple of pins or he loses the individual series to you by a few pins.
There is a total of 33 possible points a night:
Individual per game (Guy across from you) 1 point
Team per game (Team total per game) 2 points
Individual series (Guy across from you) 2 points
Team series (Team total per game) 2 points
If a guy with no handicap is limited to 300 per game max, shouldnt a guy with handicap be limited to 300 as well ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: MI 2 AZ on October 16, 2008, 04:09:21 PM
quote:
There is a total of 33 possible points a night:
Individual per game (Guy across from you) 1 point
Team per game (Team total per game) 2 points
Individual series (Guy across from you) 2 points
Team series (Team total per game) 2 points
If a guy with no handicap is limited to 300 per game max, shouldnt a guy with handicap be limited to 300 as well ?
In a singles league with no points for totals, I would have no problem with seeing a limit of 300 per game after handicaps, but for other leagues, the lost/deducted pins could effect team game and series points and the individual series points. With your league setup, the lost pins could cost the bowler's team up to six points.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: agroves on October 16, 2008, 04:44:32 PM
quote:
What if two guys with handicaps in the 50's, one has 59 pins of cap and the other has 50 pins of cap, both shoot lights out on the same night? Lets say for argument that their scores are 268 and 257 respectively. That's where the 300/900 limit rule would get tricky. You'd have one guy who should have beaten the other guys with handicap, but they end up tied because their scores+cap are artificially limited.
Not that something like that happens very often, but probably more often than one guy shooting 300 scratch and the other shooting 300+ with cap.
--------------------
-Clint
What happens if two guys on opposing teams shot 300? They tie..thats all.
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Post by: ccrider on October 16, 2008, 05:18:32 PM
If you don't like handicaps, bowl in a scratch league.
Someday, I hope to be good enough to beat most bowlers in our men's league, despite their handicap or my handicap.
CC
--------------------
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
quote:For the millionth time, we aren't complaining about handicap itself! We're complaining specifically about being allowed to have a score higher than 300 in a game with handicap.
If you don't like handicaps, bowl in a scratch league.
Post by: nospareball on October 16, 2008, 07:43:56 PM
quote:
What happens if two guys on opposing teams shot 300? They tie..thats all.
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Yup, I'm not disputing that fact. But in my example above, the guy who shot 269 beat the other guy scratch and handicap, but can only end up with a tie. Does that make sense? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it opens up a can of worms, and you end up with more weird situations then when you started out.
--------------------
-Clint
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 07:46:56 PM
quote:quote:For the millionth time, we aren't complaining about handicap itself! We're complaining specifically about being allowed to have a score higher than 300 in a game with handicap.
If you don't like handicaps, bowl in a scratch league.
Dan I don't think people can actually read...They just assume the worst when they see the word "handicap"
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 16, 2008, 08:09:18 PM
quote:Well, I guess they can't read much, but at least they know one particular word of the English language quite well apparently.quote:quote:For the millionth time, we aren't complaining about handicap itself! We're complaining specifically about being allowed to have a score higher than 300 in a game with handicap.
If you don't like handicaps, bowl in a scratch league.
Dan I don't think people can actually read...They just assume the worst when they see the word "handicap"
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: agroves on October 16, 2008, 08:56:11 PM
quote:quote:
What happens if two guys on opposing teams shot 300? They tie..thats all.
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Yup, I'm not disputing that fact. But in my example above, the guy who shot 269 beat the other guy scratch and handicap, but can only end up with a tie. Does that make sense? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it opens up a can of worms, and you end up with more weird situations then when you started out.
--------------------
-Clint
I understand, but I still think it should end up in a tie... JMO...
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Post by: scotts33 on October 16, 2008, 09:12:38 PM
quote:
quote:I'd say if you don't like it 302 just bowl scratch leagues. If there are no scratch leagues.....oh well.
BTW...is everybody in the league under 220?
--------------------
Scott
As I've posted earlier, there is none nowhere in the county..lol There is a Classic league on Monday nights that capped per team and I'm on it
As far as 220 in the league, the league is made up of 30 teams, 5 man teams. There is a couple, maybe 3-4 people between 220-228 I'd say.
Then, IMO the league is not based off a high enough number. It should be based off the highest average the year before. Are the 3-4 bowlers that average over 220 going minus or just nothing over 220? Your base is not high enough.
Since, they're are no scratch leagues in your area change the rule or just bowl with the rules the way they are.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: 302efi on October 16, 2008, 10:41:40 PM
quote:quote:
quote:I'd say if you don't like it 302 just bowl scratch leagues. If there are no scratch leagues.....oh well.
BTW...is everybody in the league under 220?
--------------------
Scott
As I've posted earlier, there is none nowhere in the county..lol There is a Classic league on Monday nights that capped per team and I'm on it
As far as 220 in the league, the league is made up of 30 teams, 5 man teams. There is a couple, maybe 3-4 people between 220-228 I'd say.
Then, IMO the league is not based off a high enough number. It should be based off the highest average the year before. Are the 3-4 bowlers that average over 220 going minus or just nothing over 220? Your base is not high enough.
Since, they're are no scratch leagues in your area change the rule or just bowl with the rules the way they are.
--------------------
Scott
Yeah I'm not to worried about the handicap too much, I'd just like to see the USBC ules be changed reflecting scores being allowed over 300/900.
IMO, allowing "free pins" to total over the max shootable score is a joke.
"Dude I shot my first 300 last !"
"Well my friend shot a 318"
Dose that even sound right ...lol^^^^
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: nospareball on October 16, 2008, 10:45:29 PM
quote:quote:quote:
What happens if two guys on opposing teams shot 300? They tie..thats all.
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Yup, I'm not disputing that fact. But in my example above, the guy who shot 269 beat the other guy scratch and handicap, but can only end up with a tie. Does that make sense? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it opens up a can of worms, and you end up with more weird situations then when you started out.
--------------------
-Clint
I understand, but I still think it should end up in a tie... JMO...
--------------------
• Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
• Women somehow deteriorate during the night.
Fair enough. Could a rule like this be put in place for a league/tournament? Or would it have to be an official rule from the USBC?
--------------------
-Clint
Post by: Pinbuster on October 17, 2008, 07:10:01 AM
In 45 years of league bowling I don't believe I have ever seen a game or series lost just because one bowler shot over 300 or 900. The opponent has always shot considerably less than 300/900.
Now tournaments are a different matter. I have seen a singles event won with a handicap score over 900. But so what if they cap it at 900. No one is going to tie them shooting scratch.
Post by: Jorge300 on October 17, 2008, 07:46:48 AM
quote:quote:
There is a total of 33 possible points a night:
Individual per game (Guy across from you) 1 point
Team per game (Team total per game) 2 points
Individual series (Guy across from you) 2 points
Team series (Team total per game) 2 points
If a guy with no handicap is limited to 300 per game max, shouldnt a guy with handicap be limited to 300 as well ?
In a singles league with no points for totals, I would have no problem with seeing a limit of 300 per game after handicaps, but for other leagues, the lost/deducted pins could effect team game and series points and the individual series points. With your league setup, the lost pins could cost the bowler's team up to six points.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________
New to BR? - Please check this: BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
This is another excellent point, but in fact MI has short changed the low average bowler in his example.
Take the 921 example in the OP. Let's for arguement say they rolled a triplicate so with handicap that's 307/game. And lets also for arguements sake, to make 302 happy, the opponent of this low average bowler shoots 900 scratch. If the you cap the scores at 300, you potentially cost the low average bowler and his team 10.5 points. Instead of getting 3 points for individual game, they 1.5 for the 3 ties. You could lose all 6 team game points, if you didn't win by more then 7 pins, you lose 1 point in individual series with the tie instead of the win and you potentially lose the 2 points for team series. You effect almost 1/3 of the nights points just because some scratch bowlers have their panites in a bunch over a scenario that will likely never happen.
Funny thing is 302 has never posted what he bowled against this 921, probably because the guy beat him scratch and he just wanted to find something to complain about.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 17, 2008, 08:15:49 AM
quote:Actually, look on the previous page.
Funny thing is 302 has never posted what he bowled against this 921, probably because the guy beat him scratch and he just wanted to find something to complain about.
"His was getting 81 pins a game.
His first game was 342, second was a 302 and the last was 277 (all with handicap)"
(I did the math for you if you're curious, that'd be shooting 261-221-196=678 scratch)
"I shot 708 scratch, so 711 with handicap..lol"
But 302efi isn't even complaining here that he got beat. That's not the problem here. It just made him realize a flaw in the handicap system that somebody can have a score higher than a perfect game should give you. How is that fair???
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 17, 2008, 09:04:25 AM
In this example I believe it is irrelavant...because 302efi didn't even come close to 900.
Even if this guy now that he has a new ball gets established real soon at his real average 180 or better. He would have won with a "FAIR" handicap.
The issue as Pinbuster stated above is usually moot. No unbelievable scores were shot by anyone except Mr. Low average but going up fast Mr. 676!
He was gonna win...deserved to win....did win on a very memorable night for him. Whether he ends up staying in the 150 to 160 area or goes up over 200 over the next year. If he goes up because of his new ball and fit...he will remember this as the night....he began to get good!
When you shoot 300 or 900 and get beat....a good time to worry about this.
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Jorge300 on October 17, 2008, 09:11:26 AM
quote:quote:Actually, look on the previous page.
Funny thing is 302 has never posted what he bowled against this 921, probably because the guy beat him scratch and he just wanted to find something to complain about.
"His was getting 81 pins a game.
His first game was 342, second was a 302 and the last was 277 (all with handicap)"
(I did the math for you if you're curious, that'd be shooting 261-221-196=678 scratch)
"I shot 708 scratch, so 711 with handicap..lol"
But 302efi isn't even complaining here that he got beat. That's not the problem here. It just made him realize a flaw in the handicap system that somebody can have a score higher than a perfect game should give you. How is that fair???
I apologize then, I missed that. But is still doesn't take away that you can influence 1/3 of the total points with this stupid rule.
And this is definately a sign of the apocalypse, this is the second time this week I agree with LuckyLefty. Let the person celebrate how good they bowled and stop trying to finds ways to bring them down. Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: rvmark on October 17, 2008, 09:33:24 AM
Mark
Post by: 302efi on October 17, 2008, 12:37:32 PM
quote:
Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.
This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.
Just because you may not have seen it, it happens. Remember theres 50 states you gotta look at...With the amount of 300s being shot in todays game, I wold bet that this happens way more often then what people would like to admit.
Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.
"Oh don't worry about, it never happens"
Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in out league next week, I'll make sure of it
I mean we all pay our dues to USBC to govern and make equal bowling conditions for all paying members. This is an obvious disadvangtage.
I'm still waiting on a response from USBC, and I'll post it here as soon as I get it
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/17/2008 12:41 PM
Post by: nutsforbowling on October 17, 2008, 01:48:20 PM
quote:quote:
Unless you actually shoot 300/900 and lose, it's a non-issue.
This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.
Just because you may not have seen it, it happens. Remember theres 50 states you gotta look at...With the amount of 300s being shot in todays game, I wold bet that this happens way more often then what people would like to admit.
Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.
"Oh don't worry about, it never happens"
Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in out league next week, I'll make sure of it
I mean we all pay our dues to USBC to govern and make equal bowling conditions for all paying members. This is an obvious disadvangtage.
I'm still waiting on a response from USBC, and I'll post it here as soon as I get it
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/17/2008 12:41 PM
Well in order to change a rule mid-season you will need a unaminous approval, which I doubt you will get. And since the USBC is not looking to lose members, I doubt they will agree with you either. I assume the majority of USBC members average less than 210, so they need handicap to make things even. Please post what happens at your meeting either way, it will be interesting.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.
Post by: 302efi on October 17, 2008, 02:04:58 PM
quote:
And since the USBC is not looking to lose members, I doubt they will agree with you either
So your saying that USBC would rather some bowlers be able to reach higher scores then others ? I thought they stand for even set of rules for everyone ?
quote:
I assume the majority of USBC members average less than 210, so they need handicap to make things even
Thats fine with me..The key word you said is "even". If you can shot a max of 380 and I can only shoot a max of 300, is that even ?
quote:
Please post what happens at your meeting either way, it will be interesting.
No doubt !...I'm def going to keep this going
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: rvmark on October 17, 2008, 04:09:50 PM
______________________________________________________________________________
This has happened before last season at the of the league. Not a 900(lol), but a 300 shot by a scratch bowler was beaten by someone rolling by someone shooting 290 (scratch) with 15 handicap for total of 315.
Bottom line it the handicap system is flawed to allow handicap to total over 300/900. When both bowlers are not given a chance not achieve the same total scores, theres a problem if you want to admit it or not.
Preparedness is the key here. Being nice and turning the other cheek just because you don't think it won't happen is a joke. Were bowling for $25k per half and we are in second place...This will be addressed in our league next week, I'll make sure of it
_______________________________________________________________________________
When this happened last year in the league why was it not addressed before your league started this year?
You are evidentally paying much higher league fees than we do in the leagues we bowl in for prize funds that large, with the concerns that you have I would make sure to have them addressed before the season starts as I know in our league you have a hard time getting the entire group convinced to change the rules of the game once you have already started. Not saying for or against what you are trying to do just my thoughts on the battle you will face within your league this year.
Mark
Post by: 302efi on October 17, 2008, 04:17:12 PM
quote:
When this happened last year in the league why was it not addressed before your league started this year?
You are evidentally paying much higher league fees than we do in the leagues we bowl in for prize funds that large, with the concerns that you have I would make sure to have them addressed before the season starts as I know in our league you have a hard time getting the entire group convinced to change the rules of the game once you have already started. Not saying for or against what you are trying to do just my thoughts on the battle you will face within your league this year.
Good question !
When I ment by "last year", was the same league, but it was under a different name and a different format
Like some people in this thread saying dont worry about unless it happens to you, I was going by that since the beginning of league. After Wensday night, I have a different outlook on it.
I got my opinion/point around league after Wensday league and the outlook looks good. I mentioned something to the president and were going to have a meeting before league next week.
Yeah we do pay quite a bit, but the reward/payout is nice as well...
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: collegebowler on October 17, 2008, 08:49:38 PM
Your opponent was 288 pins over his average for 3 games. Even if you had shot 900 scratch that would "only" be 243 pins over your average for 3 games. Therefore, your opponent should win in that hypothetical situation, provided both of your averages are legitimate and handicap is 90% of 220.
If you think this gives lower average bowlers an unfair advantage you are missing the big picture. The best bowlers have a MAJOR advantage if your handicap is based on 90% of 220. And it is there every game, not just for some impossibly bizarre scenario. If you need me to explain why, I will.
--------------------
Former Wisconsin Collegiate Bowling Conference President
Edited on 10/17/2008 8:56 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on October 17, 2008, 09:37:03 PM
Handicap? O.K., I get it, not everyone is going to average 200. Help a guy out a bit? No problem, give him his 80% of 210 and see what he can do. Shoot 250 and get 60 pins handicap? NO FREAKIN WAY!
How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?
300 game and 900 eries should be the max, handicap be DAMNED!
--------------------
Norm Duke was right
Good transactions list in my profile
My Bowl.com member page (http://"http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=2243&suffix=4831")
Post by: 302efi on October 17, 2008, 10:47:18 PM
quote:
How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?
Thats my whole point
I mean I earn a 300 game, but some guy shoot a 240 and give him a 320 ?!
WTF ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Juggernaut on October 17, 2008, 11:02:28 PM
quote:quote:
How on earth ( or anywhere else for that matter ) can ANYONE think its fair for you to GIVE someone more than can be shot in the first place?
Thats my whole point
I mean I earn a 300 game, but some guy shoot a 240 and give him a 320 ?!
WTF ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
I understand. I don't begrudge ANYONE for bowling good. Bowl good, beat me, so what. You bowl better than me, you SHOULD win.
Just last night we bowled against a guy with a 200 average getting 16 pins of handicap ( 80% of 220 ) that shot a 298 second game. Handicap, that gave him a 314. He also shot a 767 scratch ( 815 handicap ). The guy bowled great, congrats to him, but to just GIVE him a 314? That's nuts. We would have lost that game anyway, that's not my point. My point is, give him the 300, he earned it, but ONLY 300, nothing more.
P.S. Oh yeah, I don't get any handicap as my average is too high currently.
and proud of it.--------------------
Norm Duke was right
Good transactions list in my profile
My Bowl.com member page (http://"http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=2243&suffix=4831")
Edited on 10/17/2008 11:03 PM
Post by: chawk17 on October 17, 2008, 11:10:52 PM
quote:quote:
302, are there any points awarded for totals? Team points (game and series) or individual?
One problem I would see with capping a handicapped game at 300 would be the possibility of losing either the team game or the totals because of the lost pins. Guy with hdcp is limited to a 300 game but his team loses the game points by a couple of pins or he loses the individual series to you by a few pins.
There is a total of 33 possible points a night:
Individual per game (Guy across from you) 1 point
Team per game (Team total per game) 2 points
Individual series (Guy across from you) 2 points
Team series (Team total per game) 2 points
If a guy with no handicap is limited to 300 per game max, shouldnt a guy with handicap be limited to 300 as well ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
When the scoring system is like this I agree, cap the HCDP totals to 300/900. I don't think it is needed when there is only a team total to worry about each game.
--------------------
-------------------
"we can not solve the problems using the same way of thinking that we used to create the problems" Albert Einstein
Post by: Urameshii6 on October 18, 2008, 12:27:09 AM
Post by: 302efi on October 18, 2008, 12:54:04 AM
quote:
Would it help at all to change the handicap ratio? 90% of 220 sounds kinda odd (I've never been in a league that had such a cap ratio).
Thats been brought up be fore, but gets voted down before the motion even gets finished being read ..lol
90% of 220 is pretty much standard around here
Whats also sad is there is no scratch leagues or even low handicap Mens leagues around here.
I enjoy bowling, so I'm glad theres even leagues around here to bowl that are competitive and have nice cash payouts. What really put a damper on this situation, was the guys attitude toward the scores he bowled. Kinda making half-a** jokes about being over 300..Like:
~ "Well you can't beat that even if you shot a 300"
~ "Wow, I was way over 300 on that first game!"
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/18/2008 0:54 AM
Edited on 10/18/2008 0:55 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:01:47 AM
Not really.
Still, though. It sucks. I for sure wish they'd put a cap. For me, it's impossible to beat someone with 150 pins h/c that shoots 151. I'm sorry, if I shoot 300 and you shoot 151, I don't care how many pins over average that is...my accomplishment was better.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: 302efi on October 18, 2008, 01:05:50 AM
quote:
I'm sorry, if I shoot 300 and you shoot 151, I don't care how many pins over average that is...my accomplishment was better.
Right on !
I mean its good the guy bowled a 240 with a 160 avg, but I just shot a 300 and you beat me score wise ?
This is the kinda thing that critics feed on when they down bowling and taking it serious !
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/18/2008 1:06 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:20:14 AM
That's why I try to only bowl scratch.
Here's another one: Rhino Page bowling here in Bako on house shot shoots 300, loses a sidepot to 11 pins handicap and 290.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: stealth on October 18, 2008, 01:20:52 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:27:18 AM
It's a waste of money for me. There are bowlers here in town that can shoot 650-700 on command it seems like, and yet they average 140. I've never met a 140 avg. bowler with the ability to shoot 700 4 or 5 times a season (always bowling against my team, as well*)
*my team is high average team.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:30:29 AM
quote:
It was an ABT, everything is handicapped.
-----------------------------------------------
I am a super rev-o-tronic pinky tucking machine.
What house was the ABT in?
And what house do you bowl out of? If you bowl ABT, you're obviously from Cali.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: Urameshii6 on October 18, 2008, 01:32:27 AM
quote:quote:
Would it help at all to change the handicap ratio? 90% of 220 sounds kinda odd (I've never been in a league that had such a cap ratio).
Thats been brought up be fore, but gets voted down before the motion even gets finished being read ..lol
90% of 220 is pretty much standard around here
Whats also sad is there is no scratch leagues or even low handicap Mens leagues around here.
I enjoy bowling, so I'm glad theres even leagues around here to bowl that are competitive and have nice cash payouts. What really put a damper on this situation, was the guys attitude toward the scores he bowled. Kinda making half-a** jokes about being over 300..Like:
~ "Well you can't beat that even if you shot a 300"
~ "Wow, I was way over 300 on that first game!"
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 10/18/2008 0:54 AM
Edited on 10/18/2008 0:55 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:36:48 AM
quote:
It was at Sequoia Lanes...
I live near Linbrook and bowl at Carter, Gonna start a PBA league at Yorba Linda in a few weeks. I dont really have a house anymore, I just bowl tournaments now.
You from Cali?
--------------------
I am a super rev-o-tronic pinky tucking machine.
Yep yep.
I've bowled at Carter a few times.
Never bowled in Yorba, but I know a couple people who come out of that house.
Also don't think I've ever bowled at Sequoia, but I've heard of it.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:42:55 AM
Dump of a town, terrible bowling alleys. I hate it.
I travel to LA (2 hours on average) or even further almost EVERY weekend.
Palos on Sunday.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 01:50:02 AM
I'm still a junior, and it's not league. JATs (Junior Amateur Tour) are tournaments every 2 weeks, and on the off weeks I try to find other little tournaments to bowl.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: 302efi on October 18, 2008, 02:12:50 AM
quote:
Call me conservative, but I think 80% of 200 is plenty.
Man I wish !
I'm on this leagues and team with the center manager and we have went over this a bunch of times.
The reason for the high cap is to attract more people in the league(s). The more cap, the more bowlers, and in turn more money for the center.
Pretty sad that bowling has fell to this level, but I can live with the cap for the most part, I'm just hoping I can do something about cap going over 300 & 900
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: 302efi on October 18, 2008, 02:15:13 AM
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Urameshii6 on October 18, 2008, 02:33:22 AM
quote:quote:
Call me conservative, but I think 80% of 200 is plenty.
Man I wish !
I'm on this leagues and team with the center manager and we have went over this a bunch of times.
The reason for the high cap is to attract more people in the league(s). The more cap, the more bowlers, and in turn more money for the center.
Pretty sad that bowling has fell to this level, but I can live with the cap for the most part, I'm just hoping I can do something about cap going over 300 & 900
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: icefiction on October 18, 2008, 02:41:35 AM
--------------------
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 18, 2008, 07:09:30 AM
Inevitably there will always a new bowler...who gets a new ball, a new drilling that fits his hand, a lesson on where to stand and he will shoot lights out....and maybe continue for the rest of the season!
Again your team being in second had nothing to do with this guys handicap in your particular match him. He could have shot his same score with a perfectly FAIR(adjusted to his new level immediately) and he would have WIPED you out that night in a handicap league and frankly he deserved to! It was after all....his career night! So far!
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: rockerbowler18 on October 18, 2008, 09:08:34 AM
quote:quote:
Call me conservative, but I think 80% of 200 is plenty.
Man I wish !
I'm on this leagues and team with the center manager and we have went over this a bunch of times.
The reason for the high cap is to attract more people in the league(s). The more cap, the more bowlers, and in turn more money for the center.
Pretty sad that bowling has fell to this level, but I can live with the cap for the most part, I'm just hoping I can do something about cap going over 300 & 900
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
I think the best chance you'll have is to lose a big tournament by actually shooting a high 800 series, so it gets USBC nat'l's attention.
--------------------
Rev Rate: 400-450 Speed: 16-17 mph
Current Average: 236
Post by: 302efi on October 18, 2008, 12:34:42 PM
quote:
AHHHHHHH! Down to the root of the problem.....lots of money at stake....why didn't you say so!
Inevitably there will always a new bowler...who gets a new ball, a new drilling that fits his hand, a lesson on where to stand and he will shoot lights out....and maybe continue for the rest of the season!
Again your team being in second had nothing to do with this guys handicap in your particular match him. He could have shot his same score with a perfectly FAIR(adjusted to his new level immediately) and he would have WIPED you out that night in a handicap league and frankly he deserved to! It was after all....his career night! So far!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Your partly correct, but still missing the big picture. Considering the money we pay a week to bowl, there is no reason someone should be given a chance to shoot higher then someone else, no matter avgs or handicaps.
Its not about him or anyone else "having a good night". Thats fine and dandy. As I'd said for the 1,000,000 time, it is unfair that he or anyone else be allowed to shoot over the max of what someone else can attain.
LL, even if I would have put together 3 perfect games and a perfect 900 set, I would have lost the match. How can someone achevie "perfection" and lose ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: tarheel_bk on October 18, 2008, 12:46:23 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 20, 2008, 03:21:33 AM
"Thank you for contacting United States Bowling Congress Headquarters.
Your e-mail is important to us. If the Bowling Information Center is unable to answer your inquiry, it will be referred to the appropriate area for response.
If you require immediate assistance, please feel free to contact us at 800-514-BOWL (2695) extension 3161 during regular business hours of 8:00 am to 4:30 pm, Monday through Friday, central standard time.
Bowl with US"
So, in short, nothing yet ..lol
Will keep this updated !
Edited on 10/20/2008 3:31 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 20, 2008, 09:16:05 AM
Maybe the handicap should only take one to 300....900 per game....as you have suggested.
But again....you started off dissatisfied cause you got beat and this could be a factor over the season...and you also are bowling for big money and do not want the chance of him winning the $50,000 because he got a 921 and maybe could do so again in the future. I do understand. Again....it was his career night (so far) and he deserved to wipe you out on a very good and respectable night for you.
He may be sandbagging a tinch but this will be rectified quickly...as the season progresses. But maybe not quickly enough...
I've had some super scores handicap and won a big money handicap league with some super horses in the past. So I do understand the complete scenario....
Don't think I ever had a plus 900 but would have liked to!
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Edited on 10/20/2008 1:57 PM
Post by: 302efi on October 20, 2008, 02:17:13 PM
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: stormed1 on October 20, 2008, 03:21:14 PM
All that being said I had a night like that saturday and it embarasses me, I shot 331 with cap 279 + 52 ( averaging 162). I've had a horriblew start to the year with my spare shooting and it killing me.
I used to love the way they ran leagues when i lived in ROCKFORD. All the men's leagues were scratch with a team average limit
Post by: nutsforbowling on October 27, 2008, 07:31:46 AM
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.