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Author Topic: So what all matters??  (Read 3105 times)

The Bowlers Edge 2

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So what all matters??
« on: May 22, 2008, 08:24:48 AM »
Core shape doesn't matter....
Cg doesn't matter
MB doesn't matter since the core shape doesn't matter. So then all that matters is where the pin is, the core #s, the strength of the cover stock and where the xhole is? Correct??? Debate
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RSalas

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 04:28:40 PM »
The execution of the shot by the bowler matters most IMO.
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dropptonhed

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 04:57:34 PM »
who said core shape didn't matter?  The differences in the density and shape of the core itself is what determines the rg differential.  The rg differential is one of the most influential factors in a ball's reaction, behind coverstock traction and porosity.  If shape didn't matter, why would asymmetric cores be considered angular, while symmetric are known for smoother and stronger rolling?

This second part, however, is my opinion and not necessarily stated on scientifically researched facts.  I believe that although much less significant than cover and differential, the CG and MB placement does have some impact on total reaction.  Simply ask anyone who's ever wasted their hard earned money trying to throw a "pro cg" ball that was drilled with a conventional layout.

In a way, it seems like all of this "nomaddah" stuff is a way of laying out balls quickly, but not necessarily accurately.

Edited on 5/22/2008 5:15 PM
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The Bowlers Edge 2

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 06:59:01 PM »
the core shape does NOT determine the rg diff, this is determined by the densities of the core pieces. To answer your question "If shape didn't matter, why would asymmetric cores be considered angular, while symmetric are known for smoother and stronger rolling?" MARKETING!!!! Advertising by ball companies to sell bowling balls which is their jobs!
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T-GOD

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 07:29:21 PM »
Ding..Ding..Ding..Ding..
quote:
In a way, it seems like all of this "nomaddah" stuff is a way of laying out balls quickly, but not necessarily accurately.
WE HAVE A WINNER..!! =:^D
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JessN16

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 08:08:56 PM »
quote:
the core shape does NOT determine the rg diff, this is determined by the densities of the core pieces. To answer your question "If shape didn't matter, why would asymmetric cores be considered angular, while symmetric are known for smoother and stronger rolling?" MARKETING!!!! Advertising by ball companies to sell bowling balls which is their jobs!
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If RG/diff is determined by density of the core pieces, then core shape matters. Why? Well, if you wanted your core to be denser at four specific points, you'd have to create a core shaped in a way so that dense pieces would end up at those four specific points.

It's a classic chicken-vs-egg argument. It's not that one matters and the other doesn't, or the other matters and one doesn't. They both matter because they're interconnected to the point that you can't have one without the other.

Jess
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Slumpbuster

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 11:48:05 AM »
Can't you take the same shaped core (light bulb for example) and change the materials its made of to make the top/bottom/sides more dense? That would mean you could change the densities without changing the shape, so it looks like he's right, shape "nomatta"
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JessN16

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 01:47:03 PM »
quote:
Can't you take the same shaped core (light bulb for example) and change the materials its made of to make the top/bottom/sides more dense? That would mean you could change the densities without changing the shape, so it looks like he's right, shape "nomatta"


Think of a core shape in comparison to the face of a clock, and let's say you wanted to create density points at 3, 7 and 11 o'clock. You can't do that if your core is shaped in a way that it doesn't have a 3 o'clock. The scenario I described isn't exactly strange, either. Take a look at Ebonite's Propeller core -- it has three "blades" to put weight out at three different tips.

Or, compare the Stinger core to Roto Grip's Planet core and look where the weight is distributed in each.

The question isn't whether you can take two light bulb cores and change the densities so they're different the question is whether there's a difference in the options you have with one core versus the others. What do you think would give you more options to change density, a common light bulb core or the MoRich Vanguard core? Easy answer there.

Jess
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dropptonhed

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 03:11:48 PM »
quote:
Can't you take the same shaped core (light bulb for example) and change the materials its made of to make the top/bottom/sides more dense? That would mean you could change the densities without changing the shape, so it looks like he's right, shape "nomatta"


Would that really be the true core shape then?  Let's say you're taking 3 or 4 pieces of dense material, let's say ceramic nuggets which each have their own specific density, and making a "cross" or "propeller" shape for the inner core. Then you create a "filler" or "wrap" around the core, creating a "round" outer core.  Which would you consider the core shape, round or cross?  If you said anything other than the cross, then according to your theory all your balls in your arsenal are currently a round shaped core. (unless you're like me and throw true 2 piece equipment for it's quality and hitting power).

quote:
asymmetrical core balls compared to symmetrical core balls generally have higher RG/higher diff cores.


Exactly Ric, and as Jess also stated, looking at it any other way is splitting the ox and cart.  They are a joint asset, each influencing the other.  If one matters, so does the other.

quote:
More times than not, to create a similar reaction in a symmetrical core compared to an asymmetrical core ball is to raise the pin approx 2" higher and add a weight hole


More times than not, to make a pearl ball grab the lanes at approximately the same spot as a solid, one could sand the coverstock to a very low grit.  This is like tying a pink ribbon around a hippo to make it prettier.  It can be done, but why waste the ribbon?

Edited on 5/23/2008 3:13 PM
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dropptonhed

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 03:58:28 PM »
quote:
Actually with today's manufacturing process there is very little reaction difference between a solid and a pearl.


Perhaps it is a mental roadblock, and solid coverstocks are a placebo for me. "Nomaddah", because I am a speed dominant revically challenged excuse for a bowler.  So also in this instance, I will choose to agree to disagree.

But now we're getting away from the question at hand, as this is for a different thread. lol.
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dropptonhed

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 04:09:57 PM »
I'm looking for where he said any of those things??...
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The SuperHitMan

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 04:29:52 PM »
Coverstock matters

Ball reaction matters

Pin Carry matters




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Slumpbuster

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2008, 03:18:20 PM »
quote:
Actually with today's manufacturing process there is very little reaction difference between a solid and a pearl. It all preception due to the fact that most pearls are shiny and solids tend to be duller. It is not as predominant as in urethane and polyesters.
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REALLY???? A dull solid will hook the same as a dull pearl with the same coverstock and core??? What is the point of even mentioning if a ball is solid or dull? same goes for the cg, why even bother marking it? why not just make the area around it a different color or a circle like around the psa to let a driller know for static weight purposes????
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Dan Belcher

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Re: So what all matters??
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2008, 04:38:59 PM »
For me, a dulled pearl is stronger off the breakpoint but doesn't handle carrydown compared to a dulled solid.  But yes, in a way pearl doesn't necessarily imply tons of length and skid in oil these days.
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