Post by: mumzie on June 28, 2004, 04:29:39 AM
My thinking is that the elite player would know the difference - at least when shooting spares.
The THS bowler would probably blame the lanes, then march into the pro shop to buy the 3 or 4 new hook monsters that came out that week. (is this really a bad thing? see other new thread)
The average recreational bowler would probably never even notice.
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All things are difficult
before they are easy.
---- Thomas Fuller
Post by: Round Balls on June 28, 2004, 08:09:26 PM
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I bowl better than you casue my ball is rounder then yours
Post by: mumzie on June 28, 2004, 09:12:38 PM
Would bowlers continue, or would they quit, or would they notice?
(pssst - if you've been reading the "hardwick thread" on the pba message board, the general consensus is that the easy lane conditions are killing bowling - not the equipment.)
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All things are difficult
before they are easy.
---- Thomas Fuller
Post by: MSC2471 on June 29, 2004, 12:54:31 AM
I doubt we will ever see the day that there is one uniform sport shot that all centers will use. But I believe there can be a way to possibly have a choice of 5 to 10 different shots that could be the uniform shots every house must be required to use, which would still challenge the bowlers to earn their scores rather than buying the latest hook in a box ball to shoot lights out...
Matt
Post by: Traumatize on June 29, 2004, 01:19:39 AM
Bowling, like a lot of other sports comes down to money. People spend money to enjoy themselves, and expect to have fun. The happier the proprietors make the customer, the more money they make. It is a Win, Win situation with house shots. Sports shots are designed to bring out the best bowlers, and make sure that the better bowlers win the big money tournaments.
I love this sport, and I think sport bowling has done a lot to help the sport in determining the better bowlers. But the separation has to be clear from sport and house bowling. People need to know what they are bowling on, before wasting their money not having fun. Just my 2 cents.
Post by: laufaye on June 29, 2004, 02:45:18 AM
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Laufaye
Post by: toddler95 on June 29, 2004, 03:22:12 AM
I like the idea of having a more uniformed type of pattern for the typical leagues. A 300 would be a better feat, along with a 700. I personally have not had either, I've only shot a 299, & a 697, but I know of certian houses that there a quite a few bowlers who average 210-230, but take those bowlers to a tournament, and they bowl worse than me & my 190 average. If people want to bring back respect & dignity to the game I think there should be some type of a uniformed pattern or patterns.
Proprieters;
There is a drawback to set patterns, some bowlers would not want to return to that house, but in my opinoin it would be beneficial. My mens league team changed houses due to the new ownership. They were given 1 year, but did nothing impressive to keep my team. The previous owners made the leagues feel that they were part of a family, in fact I know that an entire league changed houses due to the owners also. I personally think that there is more to a person, team, or league staying at a perticular house than just the shot that is put on the lanes every week. If an owner wants to increase revenue, than make some changes! Fix the air handlers on the roof instead of using 6 foot fans, upgrade the lanes, make the necessary repairs, try to change the clientel that frequents the lanes( gang bangers, trouble makers), make sure that the staff is friendly and competent. I knows that these things may seem far fetched, but it takes money to make money, tap those credit lines. These are some of the ways I know of to keep bowlers from leaving, & even attract new bowlers.
I could probably go on for a while, but for now you get the picture. Sorry for my ramblings and mis-spellings, as this is just the way I feel.
Thanks for reading,
Todd
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MMMMMMMM, Spoiled Eggs.........AaaaarghAaaaargh.......(drooling)
Edited on 6/29/2004 3:23 AM
Post by: mumzie on June 29, 2004, 12:17:38 PM
Do you really think, though, that if the only shots a THS bowler could find anywhere were sport/tough shots, that they'd quit bowling?
Not the folks I know.
They might go out on the quest for the perfect equipment, but once they realized that the equipment wasn't the issue, I think they'd step up - AS LONG AS THEY COULDN'T JUST MOVE TO THE NEXT HOUSE DOWN THE ROAD and find a house shot.
Oh - certainly a few would, but I don't think most of those would be gone for long.
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All things are difficult
before they are easy.
---- Thomas Fuller
Post by: kendog on June 29, 2004, 12:51:01 PM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: SrKegler on June 29, 2004, 09:02:05 PM
One thing to keep in mind though is no matter what type of shot the house puts out, it is going to favor one style of bowler over the other.
Right now the wall seems to favor the high rev crankers. Us down and inners don't have as much lane to play with.
I would like to see standards tightened up gradually, maybe go from 3 units minimum to 8 unit then to 10 units. This would still give the alley the chance to put some hold area in the middle, just take away the errant misses outside.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
1st law of combat, "Bullets always have the right of way"
Post by: 9orbetter on June 29, 2004, 09:37:30 PM
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We all can hit the pocket,just carry the damn corners
Post by: mumzie on June 29, 2004, 10:37:47 PM
quote:
Mumzie, the reason bowling has been popular is due to the fact that it is one of the easiest sports in which to become decent in the shortest amount of time.
However, we often talk about how easy lane conditions are killing the sport, because it's too easy. Where do we draw the line? Which is it?
In the past (I'm talking 60s and 70s), with more challenging lane and equipment conditions, bowling was EXTREMELY popular.
Now, we say it's the most popular participant sport, yet we see the sport dying at it's highest level. Little is being successfully done to retain the beginners/recreational bowlers.
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All things are difficult
before they are easy.
---- Thomas Fuller
Post by: SrKegler on June 29, 2004, 11:11:13 PM
I had a youngster (15) tell me he shot a 225 game and then lost interest because his dad bowls and only averages 190.
I don't really think the challenge is there anymore. Strikes used to be hard to come by, it took a lot of practice to learn to cover those important spares.
Now, spares don't really matter as much. So what if you open, just string 4-5 to get the score up there.
I used to have the same problem with my kids and video games. As soon as they completed the game, it lost its appeal. Was just too easy to go thru the game the 2d time.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
1st law of combat, "Bullets always have the right of way"
Post by: MSC2471 on June 30, 2004, 04:26:22 AM
College increased my desire to learn more as I got the chance to bowl in all kinds of houses on all kinds of different lane conditions across Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, North Carolina and Ohio to name a few of the states. Sometimes I would bowl well, other times I would stink up the place, but every experience remains in my playbook and you never know when that will come back in another league or tournament situation.
What I see today bowling with my daughter is more of an instant gratification situation. She bowls a 110 game (she's 10 and it's her first year bowling) and gets upset because someone else bowled a higher game (not factoring in the number of years that person has been bowling). She gets upset when I throw 250 games, not taking into account the fact that I've been bowling for 29 years. She figures she should be bowling better because she wants to see higher scores, without putting in the practice to learn about the game, lane conditions, her bowling style, etc.
Bowling is a lifelong commitment for us- and until another generation treats bowling as this same lifelong journey that we treat the sport as, we will see less people bowling leagues and more recreation bowling...
Matt
Post by: MichiganBowling on June 30, 2004, 07:42:20 PM
I know of only 4 sport leagues that have existed in the state of Michigan since sport bowling came out. 1 in Jackson, MI has about 8 5-person teams; one in Waterford has I think 10 or more trio teams, one in Bay City folded, and one in Midland folded only because they found a league to fill the house rather than only a few lanes. So there are only currently 2 sport leagues running in Michigan that I am aware of.
During my travels around the state this summer, I have found no fewer than 7 new sport leagues starting up with very strong possibilities of success. There is a sport buzz going around. People are talking about it and people's minds are changing before our eyes.
Mumzie, I know your post was "what if everybody went to it", so I am just pointing out that I don't think it needs to happen that way. Maybe I shoulda started a new post. Oh well
I have been promoting sport bowling heavily for the past season and last summer as well, and I think it's really paying off. I think just discussing why sport bowling is an important idea with as many people as we can in our local areas can go a long way in bringing integrity back to our game.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: pin-chaser on July 01, 2004, 12:16:17 AM
Suggesting that modifying lane conditions alone would lower scores is not understanding that bowling balls, pins and surface all togther offer higher scores today. Reducing any one of these would only offer a different type of bowler to score rediculously. As mentioned, high rev and high ball speed bowlers today score at will (for the most part). Altering only lane conditions to prohibit those bowlers will allow straighter bowlers the benifits and they will score out of control. In order to place the emphasis on skill and restore integrity to bowling, any items that alter or stir the ball or makes pins topple easy or aide the ball in less deflection need to be controlled. Period.
Would anybody really know if suddenly lane conditions change? Heck yes. Every league bowler would know. Even the 140 average women bowlers at 9:30 am would know. Having worked in this industry for 30+ years in every capasity of the center, I know that any change, especially unplanned is noted by all bowlers.
Bones, I think you are correct when you say that the reason bowling has been popular is because it is easy. It is easy and fun to walk to the foul line and throw a ball down the lane and knock over pins. And it is fairly easy to shoot a 150 game on any condition by any bowler... and even the occaisionally completely lucky 200 game... three in a row a couple spares and even an open and you have 200. The whole family can enjoy this sport. So yes, it is fun to have success even if it was lucky. But I completely disagree with your contention that because it is easy to average 200 today, bowling is a popular sport. This ability is not and has not caused an increase in competitive bowling. As well, your opinion that improving the skill required to compete in this sport will cause an increased "exodus" of competive bowling is simply unfounded. Where is your proof of this? Please provide your details for such an inflaming remark. WHile you have seen alot in this industry over your long life, you have seen this sport get easier and easier, scores getting higher and higher and still the sport is in decline. If anything, this suggests that if we make it more respectable then bowlings decline in competitive bowling might increase.
I also disagree with the concept that we should gage bowling by averages. We should learn how to gage bowling by the requirement of skill. We should only allow a predetermined amount of ball path guiding, friction, pin topple and balls that produce flare and refuse to deflect. We should learn how to control this items to guarentee that the skill required is the same for today, tomorow, next week, next year, next century. If I can average 250 on that I should be allowed to and not have the condition changed because I am averaging too much.
As for MichiganBowling's comment on sport compliant conditions are on the rise, I think it is in some area's. This might be a direct reflection of all the work that MichiganBowling has been doing for the last 3 years in his home state. For the other states, should you decide to follow the example shown by MichiganBowling you might as well see the same results. The bottom line is, stop all this usless bantering about the woes of bowling, and spend you time trying everything and anything to fix it. You might end up being the hero that finds the correct answers because it certianly is not found yet. If we all do just a little, together it becomes a big change. But mostly what you can do, is change your attitudes from I cant, to I can. Then the answers will be found.
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