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Author Topic: Stacked teams  (Read 5256 times)

joebowler1961

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Stacked teams
« on: August 26, 2004, 06:23:25 PM »
We have a small 14 lane house, we have a 14 team 5 man league. The problem we have is we have a couple of teams that basically have all of the good bowlers in the area on them (200 plus average), and these teams are consistently in the roll offs. While it is a fun league, we have all of the same teams now for about 5 years and the other teams would like to see some kind of change to even out the playing field. Are team average caps an option or maybe 100% handicap. we currently have 90% of 210 handicap. Any ideas???

 

MSC2471

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2004, 04:16:22 AM »
I think the 100% handicap option will help the league move into a much more closer competition in terms of a season. Chances are after that year you may lose one or both of those 'stacked' teams, but if it's a small center I'm sure you can find another 5 or 10 bowlers that would be willing to replace those lost teams.

The league I bowl in on Monday nights has a 16 team 5 man league. There are at least 4 teams where every bowler is a 205 average or better, and we happen to be one of the teams with at least 4 bowlers over a 205 average (one of the members is a 180 average). We finished in second for the season, and one of the top teams didn't even finish in the top 5. The handicap was 90% of 220.

Matt

CPA

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2004, 09:50:50 AM »
To make it completely even, change the handicap format to 100% of the difference between the team averages.  If team A averages 1100 per game and team B averages 900 per game, then team B gets 200 pins per game handicap.  This takes away the "bonus" pins the better bowler receives when they average more than the handicap base.

If the team A is really that good, the extra handicap team B receives should not be an issue.  Team A should view the extra handicap as a challenge.  


janderson

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2004, 07:56:08 PM »
Please hear me out.

Moving to 100% handicap isn't always the answer.  The lower average bowlers get that 10% back which may only be 10 pins (if the difference in team average is 100 pins) a game or 20 pins (if the difference in team average is 200 pins) a game.  Sure, that 10 or 20 pins can make a difference, but how often does that "stacked" team only win by 10 or 20 pins?  They usually end up winning more often because they're typically more consistent than the lower-averaged bowlers.

Consider dividing your season into quarters instead of bowling halves or one long point-race season.  Add the rule that no team can be the winner of any one quarter.  For example, if a team wins the first quarter and then wins the second quarter, the second place team in the second quarter wins the second quarter.

The 2nd-last week of bowling the four teams bowl head-to-head single elimination leaving two teams for the finals and the championship on the last week. Now, if at the end of the season two different teams can have a good week against the "stacked" team, or the "stacked" team has one back week, they don't win the league.

Another way I'd like to see it done, take the top two teams from each quarter, again making sure that no team qualified more than once.  That means at the end of the season, you'll have 8 teams for the playoffs.  On the very last night of bowling the 8 teams go into a bracket and bowl head-to-head single games, single elimination.

If you did that with 14 teams, more than 1/2 your teams would make the playoffs, the "stacked" team needs to only have one bad game to be out of it or any of three teams have one super game to oust the stacked team.


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SrKegler

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2004, 08:44:05 PM »
Our leagues are on the quarter system here.  Worse thing that has happened to bowling.  Sandbaggers paradise.  Lay off the first 3 quarters then come on strong the last 8 weeks.

Same thing as running the 400 meters 100 at a time.  Gives everyone a second/third/fourth chance to win.
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Rev_O

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2004, 09:30:30 PM »
have the league captains hold a draft, or put all the names in a hat and draw one by one
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SrKegler

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2004, 06:14:13 PM »
Consider this though, how did the top teams become stacked?  Everyone one of them was a beginner at one time or another.  Thru practice they become the bowlers they are today.

With practice the bottom feeders can also be in contention.  Why try and make things easier for the teams that don't have the drive to improve.

Not saying it's easy, everyone should have to pay their dues.  Someday they will have the stacked team.
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janderson

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2004, 05:50:54 PM »
quote:
Our leagues are on the quarter system here.  Worse thing that has happened to bowling.


The problem posed in the original post did not seem to be a question of sandbagging, but a question of how to get some "new blood" in the playoff system of the league.  Any league divided into any divisions, even halves, are wide-open to sandbagging.  You could even make the argument that any handicap league lends itself to sandbagging.  The point is moot, which is why I didn't feel it needed to be addressed.

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Hammer3003

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2004, 08:44:13 PM »
This is one thing I hate about other bowlers complaining about. You have the equal chance to go find just as good of bowlers for your team. Its not stacking it is money in there pocket.

Truthfully do you go there to lose?

I never bowl to lose and always "stack" my teams to win to guarrenty well trophies right now but next year for money.

I already have a four and five man team set for next year.
1.) 222 me
2.) 215
3.) 230
4.) 228
5.) 220

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thfonz98

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2004, 08:54:49 PM »
if anyone complains we just tell them to get better....one 5-bowler men's league we've won two years running(with only three people staying on the team, and one of them being the only female bowler, even though its listed as a men's league)
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Edited on 8/30/2004 8:48 PM

dunk

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2004, 08:56:24 PM »
I bowl on a 14 team four man mens league on thursdays. The league changed the Handicap to 100% of 220 a couple of years ago because of our team we all average between 220 and 230. We chose to change the Handicap to give everbody a chance instead of holding drafts or something like that becuase we like to bowl together. It has worked out pretty well we won last year but finished 4th the year before.
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JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2004, 09:41:31 PM »
CPA .. I agree with you. I've been preaching that for a LONG time! Appears that the ABC has it in there rule book as a recommendation! If the HIGH AVG bowler doesn't like it .. let him go SCRATCH (in my opinion 100%  TEAM handicap IS SCRATCH).
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Pinbuster

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2004, 08:50:38 AM »
I have a few responses to the people who say get better.

One is in a lot of cases bowlers have reached their peaks. Between physical, financial, and time limitations they are not going to get any better.

Two is in a lot of cases the bowlers saying this are dominating handicap leagues, or in other words shooting cripples. If they are so hot then why don’t they get better and join a scratch league.

Three is if they continue to stack teams in leagues and dominate the league I hope they are prepared to end up with only 3 or 4 teams in the league because eventually the contributors will quit if they can’t be competitive.

In an uncapped scratch league it is katie-bar-the-door on building teams and dominating the league but in most other situations it is not healthy for a league to have a team or two that dominates the league over a long period of time.

They had a women’s uncapped scratch league in town for a couple of years and they had one team made up of the best 5 women bowlers in town. The first year they went 132 – 4 (with 20 teams), the second year they went 129 – 7 (with 12 teams), there was not third year because no one else wanted to bowl in the league.

da Shiv

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2004, 10:22:26 AM »
As I've been reading through this thread, I've been formulating a response.  Then, in the last post, (as of this writing) Pinbuster pretty much said what I was going to say, but I guess I'll say it anyway.

There is a great deal of impatience on this site with lesser bowlers.  It is the widely held belief around here that everyone ought to be working on improving their game, and if they aren't, they deserve no sympathy or mercy.  This is an elitist attitude.  Not everyone is a bowling fanatic.  Many teams would just like to compete with others of similar skill and have some kind of chance to win against their peers.  People who are not constantly obsessing about bowling and spending all of their time in bowling centers practicing and drilling up equipment don't necessarily deserve to get beaten all the time just because they aren't striving for the holy grail.

Around here, there are at least six dozen bowling centers within fifty miles--probably more.  There are hundreds of leagues, and a dozen or more truly classic leagues with some major high rollers.  There are two nationally known top notch scratch leagues.  I understand that this enormous number of options isn't the case everywhere, and sometimes people want to assemble a stacked team for the pleasure of bowling on a team with their peers and may not have a league to join that has other teams of similar skill, but...  Those options do exist around here, yet I see stacked teams all the time whomping on average bowlers in regular handicapped leagues.  Invariably, they take it as their right to win.  Much, much more so than the lesser bowlers, these teams have lousy attitudes and whine whenever they fail to score well and get beaten by a team that doesn't "deserve" to beat them.  

Rather than focus on how the poor drones who aren't working to improve their game deserve to be cannon fodder for these stacked teams, I'd like to focus on why people put together monster squads to bowl in regular leagues.  I think it's because they like being big fish in a small pond.  They have PLENTY of choices around here to go and compete with the big boys, so I'd like to suggest that they take their show on the road and see how they do against competition of their caliber.  

There are many suggestions in this thread as to how to set things up to minimize the dominance of stacked teams, and I think something should be done because we don't need more bowlers quitting the game--which some do when they get tired of getting clobbered by stacked teams with bad attitudes.  Something that my main league does that works fairly well is to have two divisions.  We have a division of ten higher averaged teams and a division with the ten lower averaged teams.  This works pretty well, especially in the lower division where team averages tend to be within about 75 pins, top to bottom.  The two divisions don't bowl each other at all, until end of season playoffs.  (At the league meeting, I tried to sell the idea of having inter-divisional play four times a year in the 4th, 12th, 20th, and 28th weeks; but it didn't pass.)  The upper division is also closely matched, except that there is a stacked team with a team average about 70 pins higher than the NEXT best team.  Of course, this team dominates year in and year out, and they are no fun to play either.  After divisional playoffs last year, they faced the winner of the lower division for the overall league championship.  They lost, badly.  Sorry guys, but that's why we play the games.  They lost badly in two ways--they bowled badly and they showed poor sportsmanship doing it.  Time to take that show on the road.

Another approach I've seen used with some success is average caps.  These are not the kind of average caps that prevent someone from entering a league with a high individual average, or prevent someone from entering a team with a high average.  The kind I'm talking about just gives the pins that your team is over the cap to your opponents.  If the cap is 1000 and your team has a 1050 average, then you give 50 pins a game to your opponent, in addition to whatever the regular handicap is.  High average teams loathe this system.  They view it as being punished for having worked so hard to improve their games.  Well, keep working--if you want to win.  From what I read around here, that's what you should be doing anyway.  Everyone should be happy--the little guys have more of a chance, and the elite squad has to work harder to defeat the system and win; something they should be doing anyway.    

Shiv  





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Hammer3003

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2004, 10:35:55 AM »
quote:
I have a few responses to the people who say get better.

One is in a lot of cases bowlers have reached their peaks. Between physical, financial, and time limitations they are not going to get any better.

Two is in a lot of cases the bowlers saying this are dominating handicap leagues, or in other words shooting cripples. If they are so hot then why don’t they get better and join a scratch league.

Three is if they continue to stack teams in leagues and dominate the league I hope they are prepared to end up with only 3 or 4 teams in the league because eventually the contributors will quit if they can’t be competitive.

In an uncapped scratch league it is katie-bar-the-door on building teams and dominating the league but in most other situations it is not healthy for a league to have a team or two that dominates the league over a long period of time.

They had a women’s uncapped scratch league in town for a couple of years and they had one team made up of the best 5 women bowlers in town. The first year they went 132 – 4 (with 20 teams), the second year they went 129 – 7 (with 12 teams), there was not third year because no one else wanted to bowl in the league.



(1)I agree some people peak for what ever reason but that realy is not the better bowlers fault.
 
(2)There is only one problem in my area with that and that is there are no scratch leagues for adults and not many for youth bowlers.

(3)Bowling should not reward the second rate house bowlers enless they earn it.

(4)I would bowl in a league with 80% just as easy as 125% of what ever. That would give the second rate bowlers a chance. I love to have to show up everyweek and be forced to shoot well.
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