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Author Topic: Stacked teams  (Read 5257 times)

joebowler1961

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Stacked teams
« on: August 26, 2004, 06:23:25 PM »
We have a small 14 lane house, we have a 14 team 5 man league. The problem we have is we have a couple of teams that basically have all of the good bowlers in the area on them (200 plus average), and these teams are consistently in the roll offs. While it is a fun league, we have all of the same teams now for about 5 years and the other teams would like to see some kind of change to even out the playing field. Are team average caps an option or maybe 100% handicap. we currently have 90% of 210 handicap. Any ideas???

 

JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2004, 11:14:51 AM »
DaShiv .. I applaud you!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

sheppy335

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2004, 02:43:50 PM »
I must be an Idiot cause i bowl to win and win only. I enjoy myself always but not as much as when i win. I get the best bowler together to win. If you don't like them winning get better an beat them.
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Oil is served Best with fingers!
Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!

Sheppy
Oil is served Best with fingers!
Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!

Sheppy

JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2004, 03:01:48 PM »
This is just a COMMENT not meant to be contradictory!

We all bowl to win .. but everyone should have an EQUAL CHANCE at winning. A 150 average TEAM should have as much chance as a 200 average TEAM. Averages are based on a period of bowling .. there's no reason to believe that once an average is established that a bowler will CONSISTENTLY bowl 20 pins over his average .. if he does .. his average will go UP!

As a result of this thinking a handicap of the difference between the total TEAM averages of contesting teams should be giving to the lower TEAM average.

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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

Hammer3003

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2004, 03:44:04 PM »
quote:
This is just a COMMENT not meant to be contradictory!

We all bowl to win .. but everyone should have an EQUAL CHANCE at winning. A 150 average TEAM should have as much chance as a 200 average TEAM. Averages are based on a period of bowling .. there's no reason to believe that once an average is established that a bowler will CONSISTENTLY bowl 20 pins over his average .. if he does .. his average will go UP!

As a result of this thinking a handicap of the difference between the total TEAM averages of contesting teams should be giving to the lower TEAM average.

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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O


That is what handicap is for!!!!
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Bowl To Win!!!

Edited on 8/31/2004 3:37 PM

anotherwindup

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2004, 04:59:26 PM »
100% Handicap is GAY!!
Why penalize the better bowlers for being good.   It is a lot easier to shoot 150 than it is to shoot 230.   If the 230 has 1 or 2 opens...no average.   If the 150 has that many opens it is an average night.   Why should someone who obviously practices and strives to be better be penalized.  

For example-  a bowler in my area averaged 251 last year.   The county tournament ran 100% handicap off of his average- the high in the county.  A 180 average bowler won the singles event with 922.   Now, why should the guy who works hard to be better get penalized?    If he shoots 900, then he still loses???  Before you say it...there is no Scratch event.
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Jason Jenkins
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"

JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2004, 07:46:11 PM »
A QUESTION: Who shot better .. the guy with the 250 average or the guy with the 180 average?

The obvious answer is the guy with the 180 average ..

THEN WHY SHOULDN'T HE WIN?

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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

da Shiv

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2004, 08:06:42 PM »
quote:
Personally on another note, having spent many years on mid level team, I love the chance to take on stacked teams. one thing I have learned about bowling stacked teams, if you hit them hard the first game and come away with a big win, they hardly ever recover enough to take you the rest of the night.


I agree with this.  The only problem I have with bowling stacked teams like the one I mentioned in my earlier post is that their pissant attitude can make the night tedious and less fun than it should be.  I prefer to be able to talk and joke with the other team, but in the case of these guys, it's best to just ignore them and socialize with your own team, or teams on other lanes.  I make a point of congratulating them if one of them converts a difficult spare, but they can even make that difficult by being so annoyed that they were required to shoot a tough spare that they can't get over it long enough to accept congratulations graciously.

On any given night, I root for two teams--mine and whoever is bowling against them.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

joebowler1961

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2004, 10:15:32 AM »
Just a quick update:

I started this and I really want to thank everone for their suggestions.

1. We did go from 3 3rds to 4 quarters with a rule that no team can win more than one quarter. Since we have consistantly had at least one team win two thirds, this will at least double the teams in the play-offs. This was actually a well recieved suggestion with the league with the exception of a couple of teams (guess which ones those were).
2. Since we had no one over 221 average we increased handicap from 90% of 210 to 90% of 220. I think these will help get other teams at least into the play-offs that would not have made it before and again want to thank everyone for their responses....Joe
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Bowl to have FUN!!!!!!!!

TTforshort

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2004, 10:33:50 AM »
quote:

Bowl to have FUN!!!!!!!!


Bowl to drink BEER!

100% handicap favors lower average, improving bowlers. The lower the handicap, the more higher average bowlers are favored.

I believe that no one will ever be happy with whatever the handicap is set. Try to find a handicap that almost everyone can agree on.

Sounds like this is what the league did.

TT
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"Those on top of the Mountain did not fall there."
"Following the course of least resistance makes for crooked rivers and crooked men"    
                  
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JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2004, 11:08:11 AM »
JoeB .. I think the league made some GOOD changes .. I would be happy with them. Lots of luck with your bowling this Winter!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

anotherwindup

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2004, 01:20:45 PM »
quote:
A QUESTION: Who shot better .. the guy with the 250 average or the guy with the 180 average?

The obvious answer is the guy with the 180 average ..

THEN WHY SHOULDN'T HE WIN?

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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O


A QUESTION: Who shot better .. Depends on what side of the fence you are on I guess.   The 180 average bowler shoots 709...good score, great for him.  He gets 213 pins handi for 922.  Now the 251 average bowler shoots 760....Whats he get for averaging 250+  chicken scratch.  

I guess it just depends on your definition of better.  If better relates to total scratch score- answer is 251.   If better relates to pins over average- answer is 180.   Congrats to the guy who shoots 709.  Good set.   Congrats to 760.   Now who is "better"???

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Jason Jenkins
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"

ClutchClay

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2004, 01:31:34 PM »
In a scratch setting, the object is to crown as the winner the bowler/team that knocks down the most pins.
In a handicap setting, the object is to crown as the winner the bowler/team who exceeds his average by the most pins.

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Regards, ClutchClay
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Edited on 9/1/2004 1:24 PM

janderson

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2004, 03:43:25 PM »
After reading da Shiv's post regarding splitting the league in half, here's another crazy idea.

In a single league, every team should still have the opportunity to bowl every other team. Higher-averaged bowlers and teams comprised of higher-averaged bowlers do not always have crappy attitutdes. I enjoy bowling against new and lower-averaged bowlers who enjoy the game/sport and like to see them win, even if it is at my team's cost.

So, instead of splitting the league in half by averages (effectively making two leagues), why not split the prize fund in half and keep two separate point "pools".  One point "pool" or one set of standings is based on a 110% (or 100%) handicap system and the other point "pool"/set of standings is based on an 80% (or 90%) handicap system.  Each night you enter the same scratch scores on two different score sheets but one score sheet has handicaps and totals based on 110% handicap and the other score sheet has handicaps and totals based on 80% handicap.  Win/Loss numbers only apply to the respective "pool" or set of standings.

The 110% handicap pool/standings will favor the lower-averaged bowlers and the 80% handicap pool/standings will favor the higher-averaged bowlers.  On any given week, a team could win all points for both sides, but would need to bowl well and bowl well in relation to their average.

At the end of the year, you payout positions in each point "pool"/set of standings separately (ie first place team for 110% standings, first place team for 80% standings)
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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")


Edited on 9/1/2004 3:41 PM

da Shiv

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2004, 04:13:39 PM »
janderson's idea is an interesting one, but I think that the main problem with it is that concepts like that that involve any more math than is already required tend to cause peoples' eyes to glaze over before they even bother to try to follow the explanation.  Other than that, I think that it would be an interesting thing to try.  The principal difficulty would be that novice teams who catch on and start to improve would have the same advantage that they have now in handicapped leagues; but would have it twice.  That could be offset by using SrKegler's idea of setting the nightly handicap based on the bowlers' most recent 21 game average instead of a season long average.  That system partially offsets the handicap advantage had by a rapidly improving novice, as well as highlighting any suspicious sandbagging activity.

It's altogether too much math for most bowlers to want to bother with.  If, however, somebody volunteered to keep separate stats featuring results with the new system, and if no money was at stake initially, such a system might win some converts.  Somehow, though, I doubt it.

It is unfortunate that our league, with it's separate divisions, results in there being people in our league--the guys in the other division--that you never really get to know.  On the other hand, it means that you bowl the other teams in your own division more often, which is good.  We bowl everyone in our division at least three times per season--more when you throw in 4 position nights.  This builds good rivalries in terms of the game, but tends to encourage a friendlier attitude since you get to know the other bowlers personally a little better.  Despite it's flaws, it's a pretty good system.  I intend to keep trying to sell the league on four nights per year of interdivisional play, however.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

JOE FALCO

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Re: Stacked teams
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2004, 04:30:24 PM »
I guess my definition of BETTER .. is MOST PINS OVER AVERAGE .. In actual scores .. naturally the higher PIN FALL is better .. but AVERAGE is EXPECTED .. going over your average is BETTER! To me that's the way to make things competitive .. otherwise at the beginning of the season just have money collected from all the bowlers and GIVE IT to the HIGHEST AVERAGE TEAM .. save a lot of time!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!