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Author Topic: Starting Top Weight  (Read 15005 times)

scrub49

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Starting Top Weight
« on: June 17, 2015, 05:09:28 PM »
I was told by my pro shop manger one time that with my slow ball speed that my ending Top weight should be at least around 1 1/4 oz. or more need some input please.
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JustRico

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2015, 07:26:05 AM »
I guess staying closed minded is a much better way to go thru life...I shall never offer you suggestions going forward
Your 55 yrs far out weigh anything else

Static - adjective - lacking in movement, action or change, especially in a way viewed as undesirable or uninteresting

I'm in no manner a god or a guru, I merely understand ball motion & reaction and what effects or causes it...and merely try to relay it...

Have a nice 'back in the' day
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Urethane Game

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »
Just to clarify...  If I drilled 2 Black Angles circa 1985 one zero and one 1/2 finger 1/4 side, your assertion is they would roll the same?
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JustRico

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2015, 11:11:26 AM »
In the big scheme of things...yes
You are taking a mass and shifting it not moving some magical weight that appears only on a scale thus static
When true tests are evaluated they are done in a controlled environment not in a persons mind
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2015, 11:27:39 AM »
Quote from: JustRico on June 23, 2015, 11:11:26 AM
When true tests are evaluated they are done in a controlled environment not in a persons mind

But Rico............I'VE SEEN my car go faster w/o the floor mats in it!   ;D   :P

I love that analogy.

Note:  this isn't a shot at anyone, it is the concept I'm alluding to.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 11:31:24 AM by Good Times Good Times »
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JustRico

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 11:30:30 AM »
Be careful ~ those that tend to side with me tend to become crucified
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Speeddemon

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2015, 05:07:52 PM »
Check this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytCt9TtTmI4

Some of the comments are interesting ;)
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kidlost2000

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2015, 05:50:44 PM »
Please be sure and watch his other videos and consider the source.

Usbc rules allow 1oz pos or neg side weight,  1oz finger or thumb weight and 3oz top or bottom weight.

3oz of pos side weight in a ball may affect the balls motion but its irrelevant because its not allowed.

Usbc also has a video of a ball with close to 5ozs side weight having 4 motion phases. Skid,  hook going left,  roll,  then hook going right.

The ball also gets damaged during testing due to the excessive side weight.  Why argue over things that aren't legal when the things legal by usbc show not to matter?
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tommygn

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2015, 01:46:57 PM »
Quote from: Pinbuster on June 23, 2015, 06:16:26 AM
Static’s matter. They changed a balls reaction 40 years ago and they change a balls reaction today.

The difference today is that with the super reactive coverstocks and center heavy non-symetric cores statics have been pushed down the list of what causes a change in ball motion. But they still matter in tweaking a balls reaction.

Take a ball and put 4 or 5 ounces of side weight in it and see what happens. It  will drastically change the ball motion. You might say that is not possible but that is only because manufactures restrict the amount of top weight so that legal statics can be obtained.

I feel the biggest reason for bowlers pressing that statics don’t matter is because drillers are too lazy to balance a ball or too cheap to buy a scale to do it with.
No ball should be drilled without being balance, no ball. I have seen CG’s mismarked on the wrong side of the ball, I’ve seen them off by several inches. I’ve seen top weights off by 2 or 3 ounces of what was marked on the box. You cannot simply look at the markings on a ball and determine where to drill and guess the final statics.

I saw a guy at nationals one year complaining that they found his ball had 2.5 ounces of side weight and to make it legal they drilled out the extra (took a huge balance hole). During competition he was complaining on how the ball didn’t break like before. Sure the lane condition had something to do with that but he never liked the ball after he got back from nationals and on his house shot.
 
Top weight matters in that in conjunction with the pin distance on how you can drill the ball and whether a balance hole is required.



It wasn't the static weights changing that changed the reaction, it was the very large balance hole altering the shape of the core, that changed the reaction.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2015, 02:55:07 PM »
Quote from: Pinbuster on June 23, 2015, 06:16:26 AM

I saw a guy at nationals one year complaining that they found his ball had 2.5 ounces of side weight and to make it legal they drilled out the extra (took a huge balance hole). During competition he was complaining on how the ball didn’t break like before. Sure the lane condition had something to do with that but he never liked the ball after he got back from nationals and on his house shot.
 
Top weight matters in that in conjunction with the pin distance on how you can drill the ball and whether a balance hole is required.

Back in 2000 I went to the National's and one of my team mates had a Faball Sledge Hammer.

They weighed it and said it had too much finger weight,So he took it over to the Hammer booth and they took a long skinny drill bit and drilled deep down through both finger holes. (You could drop a ink pin in those holes and it would almost disappear.)

After that, that ball wouldn't hook for nothing, even back home on the house shot it would barely move.


From what I've seen of the study's, they don't really say static weights don't matter, just other thing's matter more.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 03:03:37 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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J_w73

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2015, 05:01:41 PM »
Quote from: kidlost2000 on June 23, 2015, 05:50:44 PM
Please be sure and watch his other videos and consider the source.

Usbc rules allow 1oz pos or neg side weight,  1oz finger or thumb weight and 3oz top or bottom weight.

3oz of pos side weight in a ball may affect the balls motion but its irrelevant because its not allowed.

Usbc also has a video of a ball with close to 5ozs side weight having 4 motion phases. Skid,  hook going left,  roll,  then hook going right.

The ball also gets damaged during testing due to the excessive side weight.  Why argue over things that aren't legal when the things legal by usbc show not to matter?

I would agree that some of the other videos and ideas from phoenix ball balancing are suspect.

I will say that 3 oz of top weight could be on the left side of the ball after the ball flares as it goes down the lane. (right hander)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 05:05:16 PM by J_w73 »
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JustRico

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2015, 05:28:16 PM »
The reason why the ball stopped reacting was basically the guts or core out of the ball...you raised the RG and lowered the diff
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BradleyInIrving

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2015, 06:55:16 PM »
Example:   50 x 4 x 75   vs    1/2f   1/4+........ 2nd choice could be anything basically.. Which would you rather have? :)

For those that statics matter...
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kidlost2000

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2015, 10:34:38 PM »
Quote from: J_w73 on June 24, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: kidlost2000 on June 23, 2015, 05:50:44 PM
Please be sure and watch his other videos and consider the source.

Usbc rules allow 1oz pos or neg side weight,  1oz finger or thumb weight and 3oz top or bottom weight.

3oz of pos side weight in a ball may affect the balls motion but its irrelevant because its not allowed.

Usbc also has a video of a ball with close to 5ozs side weight having 4 motion phases. Skid,  hook going left,  roll,  then hook going right.

The ball also gets damaged during testing due to the excessive side weight.  Why argue over things that aren't legal when the things legal by usbc show not to matter?

I would agree that some of the other videos and ideas from phoenix ball balancing are suspect.

I will say that 3 oz of top weight could be on the left side of the ball after the ball flares as it goes down the lane. (right hander)

If it mattered don't you think Mo would have exploited this already….. With ball manufactures to follow?
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xrayjay

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2015, 11:33:47 PM »
So the ball was hooking nicely, but under USBC it was illegal. So they drilled a hole to make it legal for use. Now it's not reacting the same when it was illegal. So this proves side weight matters? But if it was illegal to begin with, how does it matter? I'm confused...

That's why I don't deal with these technical things.

Anyway, if the ball isn't hooking anymore it must be static lol.
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J_w73

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Re: Starting Top Weight
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2015, 11:41:25 PM »
Quote from: kidlost2000 on June 24, 2015, 10:34:38 PM
Quote from: J_w73 on June 24, 2015, 05:01:41 PM
Quote from: kidlost2000 on June 23, 2015, 05:50:44 PM
Please be sure and watch his other videos and consider the source.

Usbc rules allow 1oz pos or neg side weight,  1oz finger or thumb weight and 3oz top or bottom weight.

3oz of pos side weight in a ball may affect the balls motion but its irrelevant because its not allowed.

Usbc also has a video of a ball with close to 5ozs side weight having 4 motion phases. Skid,  hook going left,  roll,  then hook going right.

The ball also gets damaged during testing due to the excessive side weight.  Why argue over things that aren't legal when the things legal by usbc show not to matter?

I would agree that some of the other videos and ideas from phoenix ball balancing are suspect.

I will say that 3 oz of top weight could be on the left side of the ball after the ball flares as it goes down the lane. (right hander)

If it mattered don't you think Mo would have exploited this already….. With ball manufactures to follow?

I didn't say anything. I just stated the facts.  You were the one that said 3 oz of side weight could influence the ball motion, but it didn't matter because 3 oz of sideweight was illegal.  I was just letting you know that 3 oz of top weight on a ball that flares can become side weight by the time the ball gets down the lane. 

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