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Author Topic: Static weights, how important are they  (Read 8269 times)

Nicanor

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Static weights, how important are they
« on: August 16, 2009, 09:02:52 AM »
I was wondering how important static weights are to ball performance?




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Nicanor

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2009, 11:44:26 PM »
I thought this was a misc bowling forum.  Point being to ask questions, have discussion and give opinions.  This was or is a pretty good conversation without all the bashing.  Why start?


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Pinbuster

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2009, 06:44:31 AM »
They do have an affect on ball performance, how much can be argued but they do have an affect.

I’ve never understood why this is such an issue. Any driller with his salt can balance a ball easily.

But so many drillers/bowlers must be too cheap to buy a scale, too lazy to weigh the ball, or incompetent in proper drilling.

Many times the manufactures drilling suggestions want the hole drilled in order to change core balance and get the reaction they are seeking, not just for static balance.


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Stan

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2009, 06:54:33 AM »
Static weights have very very little impact on todays modern core, but they do have an impact.  Drill up a ball with 1 ounce positive side and another with 1 ounce negative side (same pin and MB placments).  There will be a slight impact on how and when the ball will transition. BUT surface and core are the most important aspects when drilling a modern ball.
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leftyinsnellville

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2009, 08:10:35 AM »
I understand that a -1 oz. to +1 oz. static weight has no discernable difference on how a ball rolls, but if they eliminated the rule would that open the door to an even greater amount of side weight which could possibly have an effect?

Stated differently, if it were legal to have a ball with 5 ounces of positive side weight, would this significantly affect how the ball rolls?  How about 10 ounces?  Or even 16 ounces?

Edited on 8/17/2009 8:12 AM
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Wilbert

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2009, 11:15:43 AM »
Static weights make a signicant difference in ball performance if it is illegel.  The more illegel the more effect on performance.  If you throw hook a ball with massive amounts of negative, it will eventually back up. I have seen it happen--especially with a light ball and slow speed.  

If the ball is legal is has a minor effect.  A couple percent of the reaction would be caused by the static weight.  Probably no more that 5 percent.  The difference could be the ball hits a little harder or not as hard.
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leftyinsnellville

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2009, 11:20:12 AM »
quote:
Static weights make a signicant difference in ball performance if it is illegel.  The more illegel the more effect on performance.  If you throw hook a ball with massive amounts of negative, it will eventually back up. I have seen it happen--especially with a light ball and slow speed.  

If the ball is legal is has a minor effect.  A couple percent of the reaction would be caused by the static weight.  Probably no more that 5 percent.  The difference could be the ball hits a little harder or not as hard.


Then why all the calls to eliminate the rule?  Seems like the USBC has got it right...keep static weight restrictions at a level that they can't be used to gain an advantage.
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BeansProShop

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2009, 12:14:18 PM »
quote:
They say bring it back to 1/2 oz positive because whatever drilling you're looking at is requiring an x-hole.  The use and location of that xhole is to modify the shape of the reaction, not the actual static weight itself.  You can get 1/2oz positive weight with hundereds of thousands of variables considering weighthole locations, sizes, and depths.  Now guess what?  With all of those hundreds of layout variations that will yeild the same ending statics, they will roll differently.  Why?  Because of the location, size, and depth of the x-hole which is going to change the roll of the ball path and make the bal stabilize quicker, later, and affect the flare potential.

Call AMF up for an explaination.  I'm 100% sure they'll tell you the same thing.  

You'd think after 4-6 years of the same thing over and over that some people would be willing to accept a completely logical and proven theory besides the same group of guys on one side of the fence.


But doesn't the static weights dictate where the X-Hole is going to go thus changing ball reaction??

If you have a high CG and want a low hole you will most likely end with too much finger weight. Then you drill the fingers deeper and change the dynamics of the ball again..??

I can see where on a strong MB assymetric ball without the USBC guidelines it may not have an effect. BUT...It doesn't matter what video proof is out there of 3" CG shifts to the right and left creating minimal reaction changes. THEY ARE ILLEGAL and once you add the holes to make them legal the reactions will change.

Ths makes the CG placement/static weights a determining factor in ball reaction..Plain and simple

This is my opinion.Not the opinion of Lane#1 or anyone else. This question is always answered out of context as to CGNOMADDAH...

Beans
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OddBalls

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2009, 12:21:28 PM »
quote:
quote:
They say bring it back to 1/2 oz positive because whatever drilling you're looking at is requiring an x-hole.  The use and location of that xhole is to modify the shape of the reaction, not the actual static weight itself.  You can get 1/2oz positive weight with hundereds of thousands of variables considering weighthole locations, sizes, and depths.  Now guess what?  With all of those hundreds of layout variations that will yeild the same ending statics, they will roll differently.  Why?  Because of the location, size, and depth of the x-hole which is going to change the roll of the ball path and make the bal stabilize quicker, later, and affect the flare potential.

Call AMF up for an explaination.  I'm 100% sure they'll tell you the same thing.  

You'd think after 4-6 years of the same thing over and over that some people would be willing to accept a completely logical and proven theory besides the same group of guys on one side of the fence.


But doesn't the static weights dictate where the X-Hole is going to go thus changing ball reaction??

If you have a high CG and want a low hole you will most likely end with too much finger weight. Then you drill the fingers deeper and change the dynamics of the ball again..??

I can see where on a strong MB assymetric ball without the USBC guidelines it may not have an effect. BUT...It doesn't matter what video proof is out there of 3" CG shifts to the right and left creating minimal reaction changes. THEY ARE ILLEGAL and once you add the holes to make them legal the reactions will change.

Ths makes the CG placement/static weights a determining factor in ball reaction..Plain and simple

This is my opinion.Not the opinion of Lane#1 or anyone else. This question is always answered out of context as to CGNOMADDAH...

Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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 Check out current eBay auctions at:
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Question...

The static weights tell you IF you need to have some remove, but it doesn't tell you what type of x-hole you need..

In other words, isn't it HOW you take the weight out more important? A larger shallow hole will react differently than a deeper, smaller hole, won't it?


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BeansProShop

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2009, 12:22:59 PM »
quote:
Static weights have very very little impact on todays modern core, but they do have an impact.  Drill up a ball with 1 ounce positive side and another with 1 ounce negative side (same pin and MB placments).  There will be a slight impact on how and when the ball will transition. BUT surface and core are the most important aspects when drilling a modern ball.


NO.. Drill them with 1.5 oz pos and neg side. Then make them legal. Now tell me if the statics have an effect on reaction. The statics dictate where you can place your x-holes to tune the ball. It's all how you look at the question.

Until USBC changes their rule. Which will never happen. Statics matter more than you want to believe.

Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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BeansProShop

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2009, 12:28:20 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
They say bring it back to 1/2 oz positive because whatever drilling you're looking at is requiring an x-hole.  The use and location of that xhole is to modify the shape of the reaction, not the actual static weight itself.  You can get 1/2oz positive weight with hundereds of thousands of variables considering weighthole locations, sizes, and depths.  Now guess what?  With all of those hundreds of layout variations that will yeild the same ending statics, they will roll differently.  Why?  Because of the location, size, and depth of the x-hole which is going to change the roll of the ball path and make the bal stabilize quicker, later, and affect the flare potential.

Call AMF up for an explaination.  I'm 100% sure they'll tell you the same thing.  

You'd think after 4-6 years of the same thing over and over that some people would be willing to accept a completely logical and proven theory besides the same group of guys on one side of the fence.


But doesn't the static weights dictate where the X-Hole is going to go thus changing ball reaction??

If you have a high CG and want a low hole you will most likely end with too much finger weight. Then you drill the fingers deeper and change the dynamics of the ball again..??

I can see where on a strong MB assymetric ball without the USBC guidelines it may not have an effect. BUT...It doesn't matter what video proof is out there of 3" CG shifts to the right and left creating minimal reaction changes. THEY ARE ILLEGAL and once you add the holes to make them legal the reactions will change.

Ths makes the CG placement/static weights a determining factor in ball reaction..Plain and simple

This is my opinion.Not the opinion of Lane#1 or anyone else. This question is always answered out of context as to CGNOMADDAH...

Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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 Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bowling_with_leah Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!


Question...

The static weights tell you IF you need to have some remove, but it doesn't tell you what type of x-hole you need..

In other words, isn't it HOW you take the weight out more important? A larger shallow hole will react differently than a deeper, smaller hole, won't it?


--------------------
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..



Yes. I totally agree. But if you end with 1.5 oz of finger and want a low hole for a specific reaction. How do you acheve that??  If CG doesn't matter why do ball companies still sell balls with the pin to CG marked on the box. Even on the strongest MB balls. WHY DOES IT MATTER??

Why don't they just sell balls as 15 lb? All specs in a 15lb ball box with no specs on them??

Beans
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www.beansproshop.com
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Pro Shop Owner/Operator
 Check out current eBay auctions at:
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OddBalls

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2009, 12:36:38 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
They say bring it back to 1/2 oz positive because whatever drilling you're looking at is requiring an x-hole.  The use and location of that xhole is to modify the shape of the reaction, not the actual static weight itself.  You can get 1/2oz positive weight with hundereds of thousands of variables considering weighthole locations, sizes, and depths.  Now guess what?  With all of those hundreds of layout variations that will yeild the same ending statics, they will roll differently.  Why?  Because of the location, size, and depth of the x-hole which is going to change the roll of the ball path and make the bal stabilize quicker, later, and affect the flare potential.

Call AMF up for an explaination.  I'm 100% sure they'll tell you the same thing.  

You'd think after 4-6 years of the same thing over and over that some people would be willing to accept a completely logical and proven theory besides the same group of guys on one side of the fence.


But doesn't the static weights dictate where the X-Hole is going to go thus changing ball reaction??

If you have a high CG and want a low hole you will most likely end with too much finger weight. Then you drill the fingers deeper and change the dynamics of the ball again..??

I can see where on a strong MB assymetric ball without the USBC guidelines it may not have an effect. BUT...It doesn't matter what video proof is out there of 3" CG shifts to the right and left creating minimal reaction changes. THEY ARE ILLEGAL and once you add the holes to make them legal the reactions will change.

Ths makes the CG placement/static weights a determining factor in ball reaction..Plain and simple

This is my opinion.Not the opinion of Lane#1 or anyone else. This question is always answered out of context as to CGNOMADDAH...

Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Pro Shop Owner/Operator
 Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bowling_with_leah Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!


Question...

The static weights tell you IF you need to have some remove, but it doesn't tell you what type of x-hole you need..

In other words, isn't it HOW you take the weight out more important? A larger shallow hole will react differently than a deeper, smaller hole, won't it?


--------------------
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..



Yes. I totally agree. But if you end with 1.5 oz of finger and want a low hole for a specific reaction. How do you acheve that??  If CG doesn't matter why do ball companies still sell balls with the pin to CG marked on the box. Even on the strongest MB balls. WHY DOES IT MATTER??

Why don't they just sell balls as 15 lb? All specs in a 15lb ball box with no specs on them??

Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Pro Shop Owner/Operator
 Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bowling_with_leah Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!


That's where the distance from pin to cg matters doesn't it? If you have a longer pin, say 4 - 5. it's easier to place a lower x-hole because that'e where the cg (heavy spot) will end up after you drll the ball, especially if you want a low x-hole.

So, you could say it matters where the cg is in realtionship to what type of reaction you want rather than saying "static weights matter"??


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triggerman

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2009, 12:45:25 PM »
quote:
quote:
NO.. Drill them with 1.5 oz pos and neg side. Then make them legal. Now tell me if the statics have an effect on reaction. The statics dictate where you can place your x-holes to tune the ball. It's all how you look at the question.

Until USBC changes their rule. Which will never happen. Statics matter more than you want to believe.

Beans


Statics didn't have an effect UNTIL the holes are made to make them legal.. Now you've changed the core shape...
--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks



not always, as oddballs and beans have said, a large shallow hole has a completely different reaction change vs a small deep hole, even more on that, pitch that hole away from the core, different yet again

if you take cg into account when laying out a ball, then they matter, maybe not so much on ball movement, but matter none the less

please everyone throw your flowers on the grave, we have beat this dead horse too many times
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OddBalls

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2009, 12:54:11 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
NO.. Drill them with 1.5 oz pos and neg side. Then make them legal. Now tell me if the statics have an effect on reaction. The statics dictate where you can place your x-holes to tune the ball. It's all how you look at the question.

Until USBC changes their rule. Which will never happen. Statics matter more than you want to believe.

Beans


Statics didn't have an effect UNTIL the holes are made to make them legal.. Now you've changed the core shape...
--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks



not always, as oddballs and beans have said, a large shallow hole has a completely different reaction change vs a small deep hole, even more on that, pitch that hole away from the core, different yet again

if you take cg into account when laying out a ball, then they matter, maybe not so much on ball movement, but matter none the less

please everyone throw your flowers on the grave, we have beat this dead horse too many times
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby



Just trying to make some sense out of it, that's all..

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DP3

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2009, 01:01:02 PM »
After reading this 2nd page I think I'm going to take a 25/32" bit and take 3oz positive weight out of the side of my head.  There's no use even trying.....
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NoseofRI

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Re: Static weights, how important are they
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2009, 01:04:33 PM »
quote:
NO.. Drill them with 1.5 oz pos and neg side. Then make them legal. Now tell me if the statics have an effect on reaction. The statics dictate where you can place your x-holes to tune the ball. It's all how you look at the question.

Until USBC changes their rule. Which will never happen. Statics matter more than you want to believe.

Beans


This is a non-sensible test to show what happens because in order to get to that 1.5 oz pos or neg side you have to tilt the core in a certain manner therefore causing it to setup differently as it rolls down the lane.  It's not the static weights that cause this its the gyration of the core.  So therefore its not a valid test because its not possible for the numbers of the drilling to match for both layouts.

Edited on 8/17/2009 1:05 PM
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