BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: txbowler on July 29, 2013, 04:25:32 PM
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Isn't it possible that if USBC or lane maintenance really wanted to stop teams/bowlers from blowing open patterns, they could simply increase the oil volumes to an extreme amount?
If you put 300 units on a lane, doesn't that in essence make it impossible to blow open in a 3 game set?
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Do we ever get tired of this subject and variations of it?? :o ;D ;D
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I was more curious about the practicality of it. Can a lane machine put that much oil on a lane, etc...?
Not if it was the correct moral or ethical decision.
After reading several posts about today's ball coverstocks make most patterns meaningless on the right side after a game or 2...
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The machine should be able to I would think.
If you had a longer pattern like Shark, but put the volume of oil that Cheeta has in the heads for the entire length, that would be one heavy long pattern. It would probably take quite a few games to remove all of that oil.
I was more curious about the practicality of it. Can a lane machine put that much oil on a lane, etc...?
Not if it was the correct moral or ethical decision.
After reading several posts about today's ball coverstocks make most patterns meaningless on the right side after a game or 2...
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Doesnt matter, the top amatuers will still get to the pocket, they will still strike. Maybe not as often, but they will. The problem will lie with the "average bowler", this bowler will be looking at 1150-1200 for all events. Trying to "lock out" the guys who know what they are doing will only make it worse for a large percentage of bowlers.
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The lanes will break down now matter what. Even if the team wasn't working together they are going to be playing in the same ball park because of the amount of oil on the lanes.
Yes you can flood the lanes front to back such that the ball will never move even with a team effort. Then it will be a matter or rolling the ball straight at the pocket and hoping for carry with little deflection.
It would be much easier to go the other direction and make the oil pattern as light as possible.
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The lanes will break down now matter what. Even if the team wasn't working together they are going to be playing in the same ball park because of the amount of oil on the lanes.
Yes you can flood the lanes front to back such that the ball will never move even with a team effort. Then it will be a matter or rolling the ball straight at the pocket and hoping for carry with little deflection.
It would be much easier to go the other direction and make the oil pattern as light as possible.
+1
Or the industry develops a product that protects the heads from damage from the impact of the bowling ball (the original intent of lane conditioner, BTW) and make the oil so it never moves, disintegrates, dissipates, etc. Obviously, it will be made by a magic genie that will guarantee to fill every bowling center with bowlers as well.
Give up, folks. Bowling will disappear completely long before this discussion is over.
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Why?
Why wouldn't or couldn't the industry ever create some sort of substance that may be oil based or some other substance that does not stick to the coverstock of a bowling ball and thus cannot be manipulated once applied as a pattern on a lane?
Wouldn't that ultimately solve a lot of problems in today's bowling world if that solution could be found?
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Why?
Why wouldn't or couldn't the industry ever create some sort of substance that may be oil based or some other substance that does not stick to the coverstock of a bowling ball and thus cannot be manipulated once applied as a pattern on a lane?
Wouldn't that ultimately solve a lot of problems in today's bowling world if that solution could be found?
Oh look... It's the reincarnation of Bill Taylor...
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"Or the industry develops a product that protects the heads from damage from the impact of the bowling ball (the original intent of lane conditioner, BTW) and make the oil so it never moves, disintegrates, dissipates, etc."
Aren't the new Fire and Ice oils designed to be a step closer to just this? Obviously, there is a ways to go to formulate a conditioner that maintains its integrity in spite of oil sucking balls being thrown on it, but it seems that at least Kegel is working towards this goal.
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If lanes never break down you lose a key element of the game. Transition and the ability to adapt to it. The lanes dont always break down evenly or consistantly. This will also apply to THS shots. You will make the game easier by taking away some of the difficulty many struggle with.
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I just don't get it. It's not like 5 chops get together with their 180 grit balls, blow open the pattern and shoot 3500. The teams that win at the USBC are never a fluke. Great bowlers that bowl well together as a team win at the USBC's.
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I think the real issue (in my opinion) is most people are jealous of these teams that actually "gamplan" and ultimately execute said plan. I've seen numerous threads where people were mad about wrecking the "shim"
I totally agree that the people who win eagles are not your average THS guy, these guys are simply that good. It wouldn't matter what the scoring condition is, the cream will always rise to the top. Look at the numbers in another thread about the average scores from the Open, tom dick & harry are averaging sub 160.
I just don't get it. It's not like 5 chops get together with their 180 grit balls, blow open the pattern and shoot 3500. The teams that win at the USBC are never a fluke. Great bowlers that bowl well together as a team win at the USBC's.
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Slight correction: 10 bowlers get together, not 5. Just having a team isn't good enough.
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I don't quite understand why the USBC or bowling center would have to change anything to deal with this. Why do people seem to have an issue with just adjusting to the condition by either moving positions or changing equipment?
I'm by no means a pro, but I have always believed that it was incumbent upon me to make the necessary adjustments to deal with any changes in the oil pattern. So, if that means changing where I stand, changing ball speed, changing axis tilt, etc., I just have to do it. Some people are just better than others at making adjustments sooner than later.
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Hypothethically speaking of course...
A bowler bowling in small town america due to work reasons, or family reasons who may be one of the most talented bowlers in the country would be at a distinct disadvantage because yes, he will not find 8-9 bowlers with the proper talent to win what is considered the "most prestigious eagle".
To me, that is a problem.
Also, if the lanes never transitioned, then the left handed vs right handed argument that has been debated for years goes away too. No advantage for either side.
Nothing to bitch about. It's just your skill. Not help from your team mates. Not you got a bad cross. Not someone played them wrong.
What did you do against the pattern with your skillset. PERIOD!
I think the real issue (in my opinion) is most people are jealous of these teams that actually "gamplan" and ultimately execute said plan. I've seen numerous threads where people were mad about wrecking the "shim"
I totally agree that the people who win eagles are not your average THS guy, these guys are simply that good. It wouldn't matter what the scoring condition is, the cream will always rise to the top. Look at the numbers in another thread about the average scores from the Open, tom dick & harry are averaging sub 160.
I just don't get it. It's not like 5 chops get together with their 180 grit balls, blow open the pattern and shoot 3500. The teams that win at the USBC are never a fluke. Great bowlers that bowl well together as a team win at the USBC's.
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The teams that win aren't because they have a talented bowler. They have 5. The team that won this year is 5 superstars.
They shot their highest game the first game. They shot lower each game. If the pattern manipulation was the answer they would have gone up each game.
Sometimes credit needs to be given for the bowler's ability.
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The teams that win aren't because they have a talented bowler. They have 5. The team that won this year is 5 superstars.
They shot their highest game the first game. They shot lower each game. If the pattern manipulation was the answer they would have gone up each game.
Sometimes credit needs to be given for the bowler's ability.
Correction: they had 10. If you're going to give credit, give it to everyone invloved.
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The guys that won could have won crossing with 5 old ladies. The same teams will win if you draw for lanes at the beginning of every squad. It's not a coincidence that the same teams contend every year.
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Thank you for making my point. A super star bowler in small town america, is not going to have much success finding 4 other superstars to bowl and practice with.
That makes it a disadvantage for that bowler.
It is what it is. But that is what it takes to win now.
Is that fair to all bowlers? I do not think so.
If one year, they decided to shut out the right side and make the left side a house shot. The right handers would complain like crazy. "IT WASN'T FAIR"
Well there are bowlers now that are saying it isn't fair because based on where they live puts them at a disadvantage.
You could probably take anyone in the top 500 of all events in the open and put them on Riggs team and Riggs team probably would not suffer any. The talent is there but they don't have the 9 other guys that Riggs gets to bowl with. That's my point.
I believe the gentleman's name is Andy Morton. He posts on here some times. He lives and works in Alaska I believe. He's always in the top 100 of all events and singles. His teams rarely crack the top 100 standing page. Why because there is not 9 other talented bowlers in the city where he bowls that want to pay the expense of traveling to Reno etc. To me, he is at a big disadvantage because of the current team rules.
He might find 4 other's to bowl with him. But 9 in small town Alaska? See the issue?
The teams that win aren't because they have a talented bowler. They have 5. The team that won this year is 5 superstars.
They shot their highest game the first game. They shot lower each game. If the pattern manipulation was the answer they would have gone up each game.
Sometimes credit needs to be given for the bowler's ability.
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Who says you have to live in the same town as your team? There's some teams out there that only see each other during the Open. Would they get to practice numerous times before the actual tournament, NO, but they could use the showcase lanes to build a strategy. Since you mentioned Riggs, i'm pretty sure he said that his whole team didn't practice together. See these guys are really talented and trust each other's judgement on how to attack the lanes.
Making the shot never transition, wouldn't be the answer. Isn't that part of being good, knowing how and when to move?
Thank you for making my point. A super star bowler in small town america, is not going to have much success finding 4 other superstars to bowl and practice with.
That makes it a disadvantage for that bowler.
It is what it is. But that is what it takes to win now.
Is that fair to all bowlers? I do not think so.
If one year, they decided to shut out the right side and make the left side a house shot. The right handers would complain like crazy. "IT WASN'T FAIR"
Well there are bowlers now that are saying it isn't fair because based on where they live puts them at a disadvantage.
You could probably take anyone in the top 500 of all events in the open and put them on Riggs team and Riggs team probably would not suffer any. The talent is there but they don't have the 9 other guys that Riggs gets to bowl with. That's my point.
I believe the gentleman's name is Andy Morton. He posts on here some times. He lives and works in Alaska I believe. He's always in the top 100 of all events and singles. His teams rarely crack the top 100 standing page. Why because there is not 9 other talented bowlers in the city where he bowls that want to pay the expense of traveling to Reno etc. To me, he is at a big disadvantage because of the current team rules.
He might find 4 other's to bowl with him. But 9 in small town Alaska? See the issue?
The teams that win aren't because they have a talented bowler. They have 5. The team that won this year is 5 superstars.
They shot their highest game the first game. They shot lower each game. If the pattern manipulation was the answer they would have gone up each game.
Sometimes credit needs to be given for the bowler's ability.
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This isn't youth soccer. Everyone doesn't get a trophy.
If the guy is that good he should have no problem finding a group of guys of equal talent to field a competitive team. He may just have to broaden his search.
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chris forry from buddies proshop sponsors and helps run a youth tournament every august and he does the exact thing the OP was talking about. he wants it to be about shot making not having the kids blow open the lane in a few games. he usually puts out a long pattern that forces you to play an exxtreme angle and enough volume that takes 4-5 games to show transition and a full 8-10 to "blow open" and by that i mean give you 3-4 boards of room down lane....even with the super covers on todays strong stuff. the format is 2-6 game block no reoil with usually 6 kids on a pair and lat year he put out 47' i think but forced you to play the twig. if you played up 4 you were getting 3, if you played 2-3 you were hitting pock and if you played way in like the bear pattern most of the kids were 2-8-10ing or flat 10ing. the higher rev kids could get it to work but up 2-3 with a lot of surface and little axis rotation was the way to go.
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Let me add to this topic:
1) making a conditioner or oil that doesn't move or doesn't break down is impossible, and the reason it is impossible is one word: PHYSICS. Simple as that.
2) The talented bowler ideal - if this bowler is really that talented, he will be asked to join a team of other talented bowlers. A lot of the top teams have people on them from all over the country. Personally I bowl with guys from 2 different states and 2 different countries. So this hypothetical bowler has no excuses or no reason to bowl with people he doesn't want to. There are many very talented bowlers who want to bowl with their friends and family, and that's great. They also know that they probably won't contend for an Eagle and they are ok with that. That is one of the things that makes this tournament special, you can have a mix of top bowlers bowling together and some bowling with friends/family.
3) The 5 vs 10 arguement. This one is a bit more complicated, but I still don't see the major issue. Teams have always bowled together with a companion team, usually. Most teams don't come out as just 5 guys, they have 10 so they can all bowl together and make doubles pairings. This isn't something that just started. Even if they held a blind draw for lanes before a squad, the teams that have the most talented bowlers, who can make the best shots, will still contend for and win Eagles. All your are going to do with this though, is drive away more of the "average" bowlers because now they can't even bowl with their friends since they have drawn a pair at the other end of the house. If your goal is to kill the tournament, then go ahead and implement this. Teams of 10 have worked together for years and years.....only now it becomes an issue because of the new balls that can change a pattern quicker than older equipment. And it gives people another reason to complain that isn't real.
The bottom-line is the "average" bowler will never win this tournament. They bowl on nothing but THS and think their 200+ average is an accurate accounting of their skill level. They can't repeat their mechanics, they can't repeat their shots, and that means they won't be winning. Why is this an issue? This tournament is supposed to showcase the best bowlers in the USBC. We should see them winning and near the top of the leaderboard every year. If the "average" bowler wants to contend, they need to dedicate themselves to the game like these bowlers do....practicing week in and week out, getting top level coaching to fix the flaws in their game, bowling on tougher patterns even if that means driving a distance away from their home center, bowling tournaments on tougher patterns to learn how to handle pressure and the competition aspect, etc.. But no, everyone thinks they can bowl 3 games a week on THS and then come and bowl well at the USBC Open. Why? Why is bowling the only sport that people think this way? The local duffer who goes out and shoots 80-85 on relatively easy local course doesn't think they can cotend do that on a PGA Tour caliber course. The local softball player who may be "king" of his beer league doesn't think he can make it a Professional Baseball player, even in the minors. People need to smarten up and realize that today's easy lane conditions and today's new bowling balls have elevated their scores, while keeping their talent the same or even diminishing it. I am tired of hearing about these type of topics.....people complaining about the overall average at the USBC Open, people complaining about teams working together.....this is all just people complaining to hear themselves complain....or it is people making excuses for their own lack of talent....or in the case of one smelly, fishy poster, a personal vendetta against the USBC (and ABC before them).
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Hi Jorge,
Care to expand on the physics part? The reason I ask is I bowled a tournament in Kansas once where after running the lanes they soaked a towel in STP and layed it 15 to 15 and pushed it out with a wooden contraption they had built to hold down the towel (they had down this before). You could not miss the pocket and the shot never changed. It was a 10 game marathon and you never moved. Cross lane was a bit tricky and your ball would not hook across the STP portion of the lane.
Scores were ridiculously high. Like 260+ avg to win.
So to stay it is impossible may be overstating.
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Let me add to this topic:
1) making a conditioner or oil that doesn't move or doesn't break down is impossible, and the reason it is impossible is one word: PHYSICS. Simple as that.
2) The talented bowler ideal - if this bowler is really that talented, he will be asked to join a team of other talented bowlers. A lot of the top teams have people on them from all over the country. Personally I bowl with guys from 2 different states and 2 different countries. So this hypothetical bowler has no excuses or no reason to bowl with people he doesn't want to. There are many very talented bowlers who want to bowl with their friends and family, and that's great. They also know that they probably won't contend for an Eagle and they are ok with that. That is one of the things that makes this tournament special, you can have a mix of top bowlers bowling together and some bowling with friends/family.
3) The 5 vs 10 arguement. This one is a bit more complicated, but I still don't see the major issue. Teams have always bowled together with a companion team, usually. Most teams don't come out as just 5 guys, they have 10 so they can all bowl together and make doubles pairings. This isn't something that just started. Even if they held a blind draw for lanes before a squad, the teams that have the most talented bowlers, who can make the best shots, will still contend for and win Eagles. All your are going to do with this though, is drive away more of the "average" bowlers because now they can't even bowl with their friends since they have drawn a pair at the other end of the house. If your goal is to kill the tournament, then go ahead and implement this. Teams of 10 have worked together for years and years.....only now it becomes an issue because of the new balls that can change a pattern quicker than older equipment. And it gives people another reason to complain that isn't real.
The bottom-line is the "average" bowler will never win this tournament. They bowl on nothing but THS and think their 200+ average is an accurate accounting of their skill level. They can't repeat their mechanics, they can't repeat their shots, and that means they won't be winning. Why is this an issue? This tournament is supposed to showcase the best bowlers in the USBC. We should see them winning and near the top of the leaderboard every year. If the "average" bowler wants to contend, they need to dedicate themselves to the game like these bowlers do....practicing week in and week out, getting top level coaching to fix the flaws in their game, bowling on tougher patterns even if that means driving a distance away from their home center, bowling tournaments on tougher patterns to learn how to handle pressure and the competition aspect, etc.. But no, everyone thinks they can bowl 3 games a week on THS and then come and bowl well at the USBC Open. Why? Why is bowling the only sport that people think this way? The local duffer who goes out and shoots 80-85 on relatively easy local course doesn't think they can cotend do that on a PGA Tour caliber course. The local softball player who may be "king" of his beer league doesn't think he can make it a Professional Baseball player, even in the minors. People need to smarten up and realize that today's easy lane conditions and today's new bowling balls have elevated their scores, while keeping their talent the same or even diminishing it. I am tired of hearing about these type of topics.....people complaining about the overall average at the USBC Open, people complaining about teams working together.....this is all just people complaining to hear themselves complain....or it is people making excuses for their own lack of talent....or in the case of one smelly, fishy poster, a personal vendetta against the USBC (and ABC before them).
Well stated. I could not have said this any better. If a person is not willing to pay the price and put in the work to get better at anything they do, why complain and make excuses?
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I am not looking for ways for an average bowler to win an eagle.
All I was after was a discussion on ways to remove advantages that some bowlers have over other bowlers.
I live 20 minutes from the ITRC training center in Arlington TX. I can go practice on the shot all I want from when the pattern is released in Feb/March until I bowl.
That is an advantage I have that someone living in Alaska or Maine does not have.
And from what I have read and seen. Most if not all of the teams that win eagles, practice together, multiple times on the conditions to get the right ball layouts and seen how each others equipment will transition together.
So a bowler living in Alaska bowling with 9 other bowlers across the country are at a disadvantage from a team of 10 bowlers in the DFW area who can go practice together multiple times. I don't care how you spin it.
So to say if you want an eagle you should just up-route your family or change jobs so you can bowl with some better bowlers is quite un-realistic in real life.
Look at the top teams, I will be, most (not always all) are from the same general area (driving distance) and can get a good group together and practice.
But if lane carving wasn't required, then Jorge's theory is correct. Any good bowler could bowl with any other 4 good bowlers and win because it wouldn't matter where you played on the lanes. If the 5 of you executed the best against the pattern as it should be, you'd win.
Another example: Riggs team this year was too precise. Too good. That's from his own report. They were too accurate. They hit their marks better and got penalized for it.
One final thought, the bowling reboot...the most shot repeating machine there is....has never shot 300. Because it burns up it's own line.
I would think technology one day could fix that. That's all my original post was after. yes it will remove adjustments from bowling. but it also equals the left vs right argument. Something lost, something gained.
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This has nothing to do with balls or lane patterns, but I think the biggest problem with the open is that it's held in Nevada 80-90% of the time, giving those in the east little opportunity to compete without blowing lots of money. Because of this, many of the top finishers are the same people.
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Txbowler,
You have one object rolling over another object, neither is 100% smooth. This creates friction. Friction creates heat. Heat will make the lubricant (oil) dissipate. Also, since the ball surface is not smooth, it will move the oil as it rolls, and lastly the new balls absorb the oil as the roll down the lane. That is Physics.
If this STP thing is the solution, why isn't it being used everywhere?!? What impact does it have on the bowling lanes themselves? What is it's long term effects on the lanes, balls, machinery? This isn't one time thing, the USBC would have to apply it 6 times a day every day for 180 days. I am sure people could find lots of things that make this happen, that long term damage the lane, damage the equipment and damage the bowling balls. You get away with it on a one time usage like your tournament, but not when it comes to something like the USBC Open.
And lastly, bowlers will always have advantages over other bowlers. Whether it be god given skill, the resources to practice more (dollars, time, lane availability), the resources to get the best equipment (balls, shoes), etc.. What can anyone do to make something like that even for all bowlers? This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. It will never be equal, ever. You can have 10 amazing bowlers, living in the same area, and they are at the same disadvantage as the team separated by thousands of miles. Or you can have that team separated who practice separately, share video, share information who have more of an advantage than the team of 10 living close together because those 10 don't have the time or money to practice together. You can go on and on with every scenario under the sun....bottom-line is the better bowlers and better teams will always be at the top. They have the resources and the drive to be the best and they use those to the best of their abilities. Teams like that will always have an advantage, even if they don't all live in the same area, and nothing will ever change that. And nothing should change that. These bowlers dedicate themselves to being the best, they practice, get coaching, and bowl in tournaments on the toughest of conditions against the best competition in order to be the best. Why should everyone else use lane condition tricks to try to bring them down (or themselves up) to the same level as the THS bowler who bowls 3 games a week and thinks he is a good as his 200+ average???
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And now we get the "it's in Reno too much" crowd as well....what next?!? How about the "where is my check" thread? About time for that yearly farce as well.
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I think the sooner people accept that it isn't meant to be fair, the sooner things can change for the better.
The reality is that we really have (at least) 2 different tourneys going on. One for the guys realistically competing for an Eagle (maybe 200 teams) and the rest of us. The smart thing to do would be just to separate the Eagle division out or let people opt into that division. But that's not going to happen because they don't want to lose out on taking all the 180 - 200 bowlers' money in addition to the title. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "but we deserve it for putting in all the work" as though putting in work is all it takes to be elite.
The tournament is not about being fair. It never has been - well, not fair to everybody. The recent oil changes were really made to be fair to the good teams. They wanted to compete on "equal" ground to other good teams in S&D. That doesn't put the rest of the teams on even ground, but they aren't concerned with that. The problem with the word "fair" is that fair is only a point of view.
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Now that you mention it, Where IS my check? ;D
And now we get the "it's in Reno too much" crowd as well....what next?!? How about the "where is my check" thread? About time for that yearly farce as well.
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This years Eagle winners and their companion team happen to be spread out across most of the eastern time zone. I am personal friends and teammares with one of them and I can tell you he never practiced on the pattern or with his teammates.
Oh....and they set the all time record. Kinda shoots that idea all to hell. But some of them did practice together and refined the layouts to use and I am sure it helped. But you have to make shots....which is what they did....to win an Eagle.
The lone bowler scenario is what it is. He can also come on here or other bowling sites and advertise an attempt to build an elite team. I would sign up with someone if that was their attempt.
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Joe Cool-
What would make the USBC Open Championship more fair than it is now? Open being the key word.
It's bad enough there is a classified division and they restrict the top 50 and winners from the PBA. Open Championship. It should be any member can pay the entry and come shoe up. If you can't compete against the best, stay home.
There is fresh oil every squad. You are no longer at the mercy of the people bowling before you. This is as good as it gets short of everyone bowling at the same time.
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Joe Cool,
What tournament is ever fair to your thinking? Is your local association tournament fair....would it be "fair" if Chris Barnes lived there and bowled your association tournament? What about your State Tournament is that fair? Is it fair for those who live in Texas to have all the new bowlers from the USBC that moved to Arlington bowling in it the last few years? Show me please a tournament that is "fair" to you?
You want fair, play tindlelywinks....bowling is a sport and sports are never fair. There are always people more talented, more dedicated, have more resources available or a combination of all three. Do you only bowl against people you can bear Joe Cool? Do you not have a desire to compete against the best out there or do you only want to win so you only bowl against people less skilled than you? Why would you want to seperate the divisions further? I, for one, would never vote for that, even though I am not on the same level as a Riggs, or the team that won this year. Why would I do that, because that is where I aspire to be....I always want to bowl against the best. I want to test myself against the best bowlers around and see where I stand. I have made some money at the USBC Open in the past, and I have donated some years, it happens. Why would you want to deprive yourself and others of this by segregating it further...so you can win the best of the also-rans? The best of the better than classified but not quite good division?
To borrow a line from ESPN....C'Mon Man!
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Milo,
I don't know where it is, but I sure know where you can put it!! :o :P
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Sounds like sour grapes to me. You should learn to carve the lanes better. ;D ;D
Milo,
I don't know where it is, but I sure know where you can put it!! :o :P
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If it is an "Open" tournament then why do the restrict some PBA members from the tournament and the number of PBA members that can be on a given team or doubles together?
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To give everyone else a chance?
It doesn't make sense. They pay dues just like everyone else.
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Pinbuster,
Cause too many people with the mentality of Joe Cool whined and complained. It should be an "open" tournament, open to any current member of the USBC regardless of their PBA status.
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To go with the OP's topic.
I don't know if modern lane machines could apply that much conditioner or not. I'm pretty sure the old wick machines would not have been able to without multiple applications.
Also I believe there could be issues with that much lane conditioner with the ball returns.
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Another question?
I do not know of a rule that prohibits a bowler from taking a towel can removing lane conditioner from portions of the lane.
While this would probably be considered unethical, would it be illegal?
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Almost every house I have been to has a sign posted about not going past the foul line. So unless you have really long arms... ;D
Another question?
I do not know of a rule that prohibits a bowler from taking a towel can removing lane conditioner from portions of the lane.
While this would probably be considered unethical, would it be illegal?
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The towel to the lane would probably fall under rule 17a or 17b. Unfair tactics/improper conduct.
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Why do we have to stop? Why don't you start trying it?
Every bowler has to play somewhere on the lane. You want a rule that states that only 2 guys can play on each arrow?
Why is lane carving such a big deal all of a sudden? Bowl your game, don't worry about what others are doing
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Another question?
I do not know of a rule that prohibits a bowler from taking a towel can removing lane conditioner from portions of the lane.
While this would probably be considered unethical, would it be illegal?
Let's see these might cover removing lane oil with a towel :
c. Any stripping (cleaning) of dressing from the lanes must be uniform from edge
board to edge board and at least from the headpin to the distance to which
dressing has been applied.
2. The lane surfaces shall not be altered or conditioned to create a ball path or otherwise
affect the course of the ball or pinfall by use of abrasives, dressings or any other
materials or methods. (For example, and without intending any limitation of the rule,
the resurfaces, owner, manager and maintenance personnel are specifically prohibited
from creating grooves or tracks in the lane to form a continuous ball path even through
within allowable tolerances.)
E. Penalty for Noncompliance
Anyone who attempts or directs another to alter lanes to create a ball path or otherwise affect
the course of the ball or pinfall, or permits any of the foregoing to occur, is liable for suspension
of membership. A nonmember found to have taken or permitted such actions may be denied
membership until his/her application is approved by USBC Headquarter.
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Pinbuster,
Cause too many people with the mentality of Joe Cool whined and complained. It should be an "open" tournament, open to any current member of the USBC regardless of their PBA status.
See, you have me all wrong. I'm all for anybody participating. I'm not telling you what I want, I'm telling you what the average bowler wants.
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Here's a link to the pattern used this year in Team Event: http://www.kegel.net/V3/PatternLibraryPattern.aspx?ID=798
Doubles/Singles used a 39' pattern and the team event was 41'.
The ratio was around 2-1/2 to 1 compared to house shots that are more like 7 to 1.
Here's the link for Doubles/Singles for this year: http://www.kegel.net/V3/PatternLibraryPattern.aspx?ID=799
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Joe Cool-
What would make the USBC Open Championship more fair than it is now? Open being the key word.
It's bad enough there is a classified division and they restrict the top 50 and winners from the PBA. Open Championship. It should be any member can pay the entry and come shoe up. If you can't compete against the best, stay home.
There is fresh oil every squad. You are no longer at the mercy of the people bowling before you. This is as good as it gets short of everyone bowling at the same time.
Stay home. Lets see how long it lasts if people actually take the smart advice and lets see how quickly people like you start begging them to come back.
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Why do the guys that don't want to open a lane up want to screw everyone else on the pair?
Why make a difficult shot harder? I better not hear anyone whine about tough conditions if you are not willing to do something relatively simple to make the condition easier.
Winning teams open up the lanes, teams that don't shot 2500. Isn't it obvious?
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Joe Cool-
I know how talented the guys that win are. I could hang with them 10 years ago. I stay home now. I know my place.
I went to nationals for 18 years. I can say I never went for the money. There would still be a very large turnout even if there were no prize money. I't the only place you can win an Eagle.
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Joe Cool-
I know how talented the guys that win are. I could hang with them 10 years ago. I stay home now. I know my place.
I went to nationals for 18 years. I can say I never went for the money. There would still be a very large turnout even if there were no prize money. I't the only place you can win an Eagle.
If everybody that didn't have a chance to win an Eagle stayed home, there'd be nowhere to win an Eagle.
That's all I'm getting at. You can't just make rules considering one group when everyone is needed for the tourney to exist much less be as successful financially as USBC needs it to be. The tourney isn't what it used to be. We need to get past that and start looking at the entire picture, not just the top of it.
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Why do the guys that don't want to open a lane up want to screw everyone else on the pair?
Why make a difficult shot harder? I better not hear anyone whine about tough conditions if you are not willing to do something relatively simple to make the condition easier.
Winning teams open up the lanes, teams that don't shot 2500. Isn't it obvious?
So being the better shotmaker is not the key...10 people working together to create an easier shot is? I know the answer, I just want to hear someone actually say it. I know, I know, you need to be a shotmaker to open up the lanes properly. I just want it simplified down to the lowest common denominator.
You have zero chance of winning the team event Eagle without 10 people working together (or 5 people with no team bowling against them). Say it.
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Why do the guys that don't want to open a lane up want to screw everyone else on the pair?
Why make a difficult shot harder? I better not hear anyone whine about tough conditions if you are not willing to do something relatively simple to make the condition easier.
Winning teams open up the lanes, teams that don't shot 2500. Isn't it obvious?
+1
Either you can, or you complain.
What group do you belong to?
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Question:
WHY does everyone seem to think bowling should be made "fair"?
Bowling is a sport/game based on ones physical abilities to compete, correct?
Since there are MILLIONS of bowlers, each with his or her own ability level, how do you propose to make it "fair" for everyone?
Question:
Can you name me ANYTHING in life that is truly "fair"?
The answer is NO, you cannot. From the simplest thing, to the most complex, there will ALWAYS be those who have greater innate abilities towards an end than others will have.
Usain Bolt is the fastest, Zydrunas Savickas is the strongest. Others have trained just as long, and just as hard, yet these two stand out because of their natural abilities.
ANY attempt to make ANYTHING "fair" is to ARTIFICIALLY change either the requirements, or the conditions of, said activity.
Lane "carving" as it is called, is a by product of the modern game and the modern equipment. Modern equipment is a by product of people wanting something they didn't learn/earn.
I could go on this subject for a long time, but I won't. Just suffice it to say that there is NO WAY to ever make a sport "fair", and ANY attempt at doing so is just an exercise in futility.
YOU CANNOT MAKE ANYTHING "FAIR"! Please stop trying.
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This topic line reminds me why I do not bowl Nationals any longer. I shot my fair share of scores that I was proud of, but I am not versatile nor rich enough to set myself up to cover 5 boards or 50 boards with equipment changes and the like. My best zone is between 5 and 15 and sadly, I do not have the time, the money or the interest to try to develop my game further that that.
I have said for years that I realize my limitations within the realm of the Nationals and the game it requires, and I will not go again unless I am the worst guy on the team. I hated the last few years, where I go with 9 others and get told "We are attacking them this way" and out bowl everyone because I end up the only one who can play them to score.
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Question:
WHY does everyone seem to think bowling should be made "fair"?
Bowling is a sport/game based on ones physical abilities to compete, correct?
Since there are MILLIONS of bowlers, each with his or her own ability level, how do you propose to make it "fair" for everyone?
Question:
Can you name me ANYTHING in life that is truly "fair"?
The answer is NO, you cannot. From the simplest thing, to the most complex, there will ALWAYS be those who have greater innate abilities towards an end than others will have.
Usain Bolt is the fastest, Zydrunas Savickas is the strongest. Others have trained just as long, and just as hard, yet these two stand out because of their natural abilities.
ANY attempt to make ANYTHING "fair" is to ARTIFICIALLY change either the requirements, or the conditions of, said activity.
Lane "carving" as it is called, is a by product of the modern game and the modern equipment. Modern equipment is a by product of people wanting something they didn't learn/earn.
I could go on this subject for a long time, but I won't. Just suffice it to say that there is NO WAY to ever make a sport "fair", and ANY attempt at doing so is just an exercise in futility.
YOU CANNOT MAKE ANYTHING "FAIR"! Please stop trying.
Sure. Tell that to the people that wanted fresh oil on all squads. Tell that to the people mad that the team a couple years ago did so well bowling unopposed. Make sure you tell all of the 180 - 200 bowlers that it's just unfortunate that they have no chance at anything more than a meal money check because it's just not supposed to be fair.
Fair is a word people use when it works in their favor. Or when it doesn't. Either way, it's just a point of view.
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+100 to Juggernaut.
No matter what you do to the lanes, the bowler(s) who forms a strategy puts in the hours and practice will always come home with the Eagle, as they should.
Maybe the USBC should give out participation eagles to all the "average bowlers" who just show up and think they should win.
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+100 to Juggernaut.
No matter what you do to the lanes, the bowler(s) who forms a strategy puts in the hours and practice will always come home with the Eagle, as they should.
Maybe the USBC should give out participation eagles to all the "average bowlers" who just show up and think they should win.
You, like most "elite" bowlers completely miss the point. Nobody is asking for average bowlers to be able to win. Well, nobody that I've seen. The biggest complaint I've seen is that the 180 - 200 bowler has little to no chance of even getting a small check in return for their $185 entry fee. They don't want to win. They know they can't win. What they want is a chance to be rewarded for performing well compared to people of their skill level. Their skill level isn't the guys winning the Eagle. Why they have to compete against them is a mystery. Well, not really. Follow the money...
I am not a 180 - 200 bowler in case someone assumes this is self-serving.
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The fairness angle is absolute BS as well. What's next? We all get to Nationals, where we all drill the same ball with the same layout and the same cover? But after that, what will be next?
He has more revs than me...NOT FAIR
He has more ball speed than me...NOT FAIR
He can split hairs at his lay down and I could not hit a dinner plate from 22 feet away...NOT FAIR
He misses spares once a decade and I can't pick up the 5 pin...NOT FAIR
He is a morning person and I only bowl good at night...NOT FAIR
Fair? Really?
Just shut up and bowl...If Nationals is unfair to you, go back home to your THS and leave the tournament bowling to those who understand it.
Or you can keep bowling Nationals and just accept your position as a PFB...
Prize Fund Booster
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Joe Cool,
The better bowler(s) should win the majority of the time. If you are 180-200 average bowler, you are NOT the better bowler, so your chances of winning are going to be a lot less. As they should be.
Name another sport where the "average" player has an equal advantage as the advanced player? That doesn't make sence.
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Sure. Tell that to the people that wanted fresh oil on all squads. Tell that to the people mad that the team a couple years ago did so well bowling unopposed. Make sure you tell all of the 180 - 200 bowlers that it's just unfortunate that they have no chance at anything more than a meal money check because it's just not supposed to be fair.
Fair is a word people use when it works in their favor. Or when it doesn't. Either way, it's just a point of view.
Sure, be glad to.
I don't imagine they would listen, but I would be glad to tell them. They should all be grown ups and realize the truth. SADLY, they would not.
That is a big part of the problem.
Your last sentence is absolute genius. Fair is only a point of view, and people always want what THEY think is fair.
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The "nothing is fair" rallying cry will stick around until the top bowlers want to change something else, then suddenly "fair" will be important that one time; then it will be back to "life isn't fair" for the rallying cry.
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Joe Cool,
In your case, I could see making an argument for more divisions. Of coarse, that opens the doors a little more for sandbaggers. I don't know.
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+100 to Juggernaut.
No matter what you do to the lanes, the bowler(s) who forms a strategy puts in the hours and practice will always come home with the Eagle, as they should.
Maybe the USBC should give out participation eagles to all the "average bowlers" who just show up and think they should win.
You, like most "elite" bowlers completely miss the point. Nobody is asking for average bowlers to be able to win. Well, nobody that I've seen. The biggest complaint I've seen is that the 180 - 200 bowler has little to no chance of even getting a small check in return for their $185 entry fee. They don't want to win. They know they can't win. What they want is a chance to be rewarded for performing well compared to people of their skill level. Their skill level isn't the guys winning the Eagle. Why they have to compete against them is a mystery. Well, not really. Follow the money...
I am not a 180 - 200 bowler in case someone assumes this is self-serving.
Rewarded for performing well compared to people of their skill level?
So now a bowler is being encouraged to bag all year to get myself to 180-200, then go shoot 2150 at Nationals so they can rake? What would the rest of his skill level have to say then?
How many damn divisions would we need to make you happy?
Still would never make it fair, BTW...
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Joe Cool,
The better bowler(s) should win the majority of the time. If you are 180-200 average bowler, you are NOT the better bowler, so your chances of winning are going to be a lot less. As they should be.
Name another sport where the "average" player has an equal advantage as the advanced player? That doesn't make sence.
Clearly you're missing the point. I never said anything about winning. You guys keep throwing out winning because you can't touch the actual point.
Name another sport where average players compete against elite players? Is poker a sport? That might be the only one.
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Only in bowling on a wall does someone of less skill have a chance.
It's the USBC Open Championship. 180's sign up knowing what they are getting into. If they want fair they will stay home and bowl the Thursday Mixers. Most bowlers have no chance to cash, never mind win. But they go anyway.
The main reason entries are on the decline is Reno has worn out it's welcome. People will accept it every 3 years, but 3 of 4 and next year 4 of 5, is a bit much.
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If USBC would keep up with tournament averages, they could eliminate "some" of the bagging.
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Okay, so we are going to bury our heads in the sand because someone is going to game the system? People are gaming the system anyway. It's happening, and it's real. It's widespread.
I don't know that more divisions is the answer...not in the way you're thinking at least. I don't know what the answer is or I'd just lay it out. I'm trying to get some honest discussion instead of bickering back and forth. Maybe it's another division. Maybe it's just pulling out the Eagle competitors and opening that group up to anyone (including PBA). I don't know.
Here's what I do know...if we keep doing what we're doing, we all end up losing. So instead of fighting for a broken system because it favors you, why not come up with ways to improve the system to help others.
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Only in bowling on a wall does someone of less skill have a chance.
It's the USBC Open Championship. 180's sign up knowing what they are getting into. If they want fair they will stay home and bowl the Thursday Mixers. Most bowlers have no chance to cash, never mind win. But they go anyway.
The main reason entries are on the decline is Reno has worn out it's welcome. People will accept it every 3 years, but 3 of 4 and next year 4 of 5, is a bit much.
It's been on the decline for a long time. Reno is people burying their heads and looking for an easy excuse.
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In my opinion, the top tier talent of the open have a yearly ATM machine that gives them free money (brackets).
99% of them will not do anything that takes that ATM machine away or lowers the amount it pays. I can't blame them.
But they will gladly fight for anything that will aid in helping them adding to the amount the ATM pays. Fresh oil for minors made it equal starting for all. No one had an advantage of a good team setting them up ahead of them vs a classified team shim wrecking a minors pair costing thousands in brackets.
Brackets has become the motivation for the majority of "non eagle" competitors in the open. They know they are not at the level of the top teams unless they catch lightning in a bottle. But they have several top tier bowlers that can make several thousand dollars over 2 days. And they are hoping that when they walk into the squad room, they don't recognize anyone vs walking into the squad room and seeing Team USA support or Riggs group ready to bowl.
Because then you know, getting money from that ATM, just got a little tougher.
Here's what I do know...if we keep doing what we're doing, we all end up losing. So instead of fighting for a broken system because it favors you, why not come up with ways to improve the system to help others.
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Entries peaked in 2009 and it's been in Reno 3/4 since then. Considering there have been 110 tournaments I don't consider that a long time.
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Entries peaked in 2009 and it's been in Reno 3/4 since then. Considering there have been 110 tournaments I don't consider that a long time.
Think bigger picture, not blips on the radar. Take out Vegas. Take out when people actually liked going to Reno. I guess you're not going to believe anything until El Paso. People see what they want to see and forget how many times the extended registration or offered deals to locals to get the number to where it was...
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Fair is a word people use when it works in their favor. Or when it doesn't. Either way, it's just a point of view.
Your last sentence is absolute genius. Fair is only a point of view, and people always want what THEY think is fair.
Thank you. Every once in a while I luck into something intelligent.
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I skipped several pages, as it was all the same thing being said over and over. the TL;DR I got from the first page and a half was this.
Random Superstar Bowler (RSB for short) that lives in the middle of alaska has a DISadvantage at USBC Open because the 4 other Joe Schmo Bowlers that come with him do not have the ability to throw sanded bowling balls down a lane to attempt to break it down favorably (or as favorably as 10 Superstar Bowlers from Dallas TX). The solution to make it (more) fair by creating a pattern that does not break down.
I did not read enough to see if this point has been made, but the groups of superstar bowlers are not going to win just because they are smart enough to try and use a strategy to break down a lane together, but because they are GOOD enough to repeat shots in the right area often enough with the right ball motion to strike. There are plenty of cases where you can find a ball, release, alignment that gives you room to make mistakes and still get to the pocket, but this may not always be the best line to play to have the best chance to carry when you do hit the pocket.
In a world with transition, the 10 superstar bowlers spend a good 7 minutes of practice throwing shots that are not on their intended line, but are just to break down the pattern. They spend maybe their last 2 shots of practice actually getting lined up. Even here, the spot they choose to break down is a compromise of what is best for the majority of the team. Team members having different (yet just as good) games involving different speeds, rev rates, axis rotations than the majority, may not be as lined up, but you do it for the good of the team, and even then its a guessing game. They may play completely differently than you saw in practice, and you may not have the right balls and surfaces in your bag to play where you broke them down.
In a world with no transition, each superstar bowler gets to spend the entire 10 minutes of practice finding the line that will let them strike the most. They are gonna hit that line more than any other bowlers in the building. Say they throw one a little off line, it goes high, and they 4 pin. There's nothing at this point keeping them from trying a different line, ball, etc that will allow them to trip the 4 on that same tugged shot. So by the end of practice, these superstar bowlers will be lined up in spots that suit their individual games to allow them to strike a ton.
My question is do you want to have to bowl against the same caliber of bowlers that are in the running every year where they do not have to move or change anything for 9 games? Figure it out once and you're set for the weekend, turn the brain off, and cruise. I'd rather we both have to move and adjust to transition than neither of us.
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Joe Cool is exactly right!!! "Fair" is a point of view. No matter what USBC does with the format, somebody is going to say it's not fair or it is fair. You can't please everybody.
Regardless, you know the format before you pay your money and make the trip.
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Isn't it possible that if USBC or lane maintenance really wanted to stop teams/bowlers from blowing open patterns, they could simply increase the oil volumes to an extreme amount?
If you put 300 units on a lane, doesn't that in essence make it impossible to blow open in a 3 game set?
So now it becomes who can throw a straight ball and carry. Doesn't sound like bowling. Why do people get upset when a team has a strategy? It's a game/sport. I thought that was the point.
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A lot of people go in having a strategy. People are jealous of the teams that are talented enough to execute their strategy. The best teams win. The only thing that has changed over the years is the winning score goes up.
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Several random points. Bowling is like life, it isn't fair. Having said that, I only know the winning team from this years tournament by reputation, none personally. By reputation, they seem totally deserving of winning an eagle.
The purpose of lane oil was originally to protect the lane surface. I think it is a useful tool to control the scoring environment in bowling, just as the lawn mower controls the scoring environment in golf. However, lane surface protection is still an important role. The only problem I have with the modern balls is that they make protection of the lane surface extremely difficult. When synthetic surfaces were introduced, nobody thought they would have a life of less than 15 years, but that is typically what we see with the high friction balls that first dissipate the oil too quickly, then really wear on the surface. There are several reasons why applying mega volumes of oil will simply not work. One is that even very high volumes will be dissipated quickly in the heads, leaving a soupy unplayable mess on the rest of the lane. Carry down would become unimaginably bad. I think there is some room to improve the ability of oils to hold up, but without some limitations on surface altering of balls they will be of no avail. If every ball was required to be buffed to 4000 at the factory and no surface alteration allowed it would help, but I am not sure how much.
I don't think a surface that never transitions, would be good for the game. Part of the necessary complexity of bowling that makes it a challenge is gradual lane transitions. Emphasis on gradual.
I am not an anti technology guy when I say this. I think the game would be much better at every level if balls were limited to polished non resin urethane, or non scuffed polyester. With the modern lane machines ability to calibrate and apply oil, people would be surprised how decent scoring could be even with polyester balls and a volume of oil half what we are using today. One reason I think the game would be better is that bowlers would be forced to play the shot the way the lane is set up, rather than carve out the swing area simply by blowing up the pattern as is the case today.
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All good points avabob!
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The ANSWER is to replace oil and lane machines with a semi-permanent, durable, low-friction film that rolls out across the entire lane in desired lengths (ex: 35, 40, and 45 feet), that cannot be carved, and is replaced before any track develops.
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Where is the prototype we can try?
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Along with cost vs regular oil.
The easiest solution is less oil. Bowlers complain about dry lanes all the time and how to play them because ball A, B, and C hook too much.
Less oil, lower expense, lower scores.
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The answer to this question is simple......eliminate reactive resin bowling balls.
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If I remember correctly, the ABC several years ago did some analysis and found that heavily sanded urethane was just as abrasive and damaging to lane surfaces as particle and resin balls.
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If I remember correctly, the ABC several years ago did some analysis and found that heavily sanded urethane was just as abrasive and damaging to lane surfaces as particle and resin balls.
I'm sure 500 grit plastic/polyester is just as bad for the lane surface. I'd bet it was just the abrasive level and not the type of coverstock.