win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?  (Read 4731 times)

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« on: June 26, 2013, 12:44:44 PM »
I'm putting the finishing touches on my seminar, and it's been created based on my experience with what causes the biggest problems for bowlers and pro shops alike when it comes to interacting with each other.  However, I do want to put more emphasis on the bigger problems, and make absolutely for certain that they are resolved within the seminar. 

So when it comes to making a ball choice or interacting with your pro shop, what is the hardest or most confusing part of it?  Understanding the numbers, like rg and diff?  Understanding layouts?  Surfaces?  Proper fitting?  How to make sure your pro shop knows what they're doing?  I'll be making and uploading videos section by section, and hope to make it into a presentation I can at least locally present at centers. 

There's such a rift between bowlers and pro shops right now, and it's creating some rather drastic problems.  Things in the industry have changed so much, and there's a lot that has done a 180, fitting or drilling techniques that were "right" 20 years ago no longer apply and are in fact wrong.  Some bowlers don't understand this and think the pro shop guys don't know what they're doing, and vice versa.  A lot of camps and seminars focus on what to do once you actually get on the lanes, but I haven't seen one yet that goes into much detail about the stuff off the lanes. 

The point of this is to help people educate themselves enough to know when they should and shouldn't argue with their pro shop over something, or to give them enough information to be able to protect themselves from "bad" pro shops, and at the same time explain to them why we do some of the things we do.  Basically help the bowler and pro shop help each other or get them on the same page. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 01:08:53 PM »

There's such a rift between bowlers and pro shops right now, and it's creating some rather drastic problems. 


Interesting. I didn't know the tension was that thick. What are the 'drastic' problems you've experienced??

storm making it rain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 01:12:55 PM »

I'm assuming it's because the bowlers are constantly coming up to the pro shop guys asking them questions while they're trying to focus on bowling. 
Interesting. I didn't know the tension was that thick. What are the 'drastic' problems you've experienced??
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 01:18:13 PM by storm making it rain »

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 02:42:21 PM »
Yeah, I probably deserved that . . but to answer the question, if you're a bowler that either trusts your pro shop or is happy with the work they do, then I doubt you would even notice it.  This is something that's not really a problem with the higher level or more experienced bowler, because most likely you know what works for you, and you know what you're looking for.  This is for the bowler that comes in and says that they're having trouble getting out of the ball, and that we need to put more reverse in their thumbhole, or that they want the biggest hooking ball we have, in their mind picturing a ball that goes 40 feet and turns left, and doesn't understand why a ball that hooks a ton won't turn left at the end of a pattern.  For the bowler who says, "I want layout C" on the drill sheet that comes with the ball, and then when they get the ball and the fingerholes aren't in the same place as it is on the layout sheet because their pap is different. 

All pro shops figure out after a while how to figure out what people are after despite what questions they ask, but sometimes someone asks for a service, and then doesn't get what they were expecting, and when it's explained to them, they think the pro shop is just covering their ass or trying to talk their way out of their "screw up."  When people learned things 20 years ago, they keep those "facts" or ideas with them, and when they come in to get a ball drilled and they have 1/8th forward in their fingers and 1/2 reverse in their thumb and are complaining about having to go down in weight because their hand is hurting, and we go to adjust their fit, they argue with us.  "Well I still want to get something on the ball and be able to let go of it, I don't want to go with it."  Or when they say they want a hook monster drilled "stacked leverage," for a dry pattern and we try to talk them out of it, they don't understand.  Very often we don't have the time it requires to really teach instead of just supplying information.  The point of this is to really teach someone why having forward pitch in your fingers and excessive reverse in their thumb is actually causing the problems they think it's fixing. 

Plus some people are just curious about what all goes into putting holes in the ball or plugging one, resurfacing, etc.  If you don't know much about rg or diff, all the numbers on the balls are confusing, they don't know what pin length and top weight on the box means, or why it looks like a Cyclone hooks more on a dry pattern than a Defiant.  Stuff like this is received a lot better by people coming to a class on their own than coming into a shop with preconceived ideas and being told what they think isn't actually the case.  If someone comes in and says, "my friend (who averages 150 and bowls once a week) says I shouldn't get a ball drilled pin down because it's a bad drilling, so drill mine pin up," we're kind of required to explain things, but it's difficult sometimes to tell someone that they're wrong or their friend is wrong. 

This isn't just something local that happens in my little shop that I'm coming up with to go on a crusade or something, it happens in tons of pro shops across the country, and with bowling in general.  A lot of things surrounding the pro shop aspect of bowling, and subsequently some coaching techniques which applies to us as well have completely changed.  20 years ago, you wanted your shoulders parallel to the line, you wanted your elbow straight and your wrist slightly cupped.  That's not the case anymore.  20 years ago with plastic and urethane, you provided the hook, now the balls rev and hook themselves, or they do the work, so instead of trying to get them to roll early, you need to get out of the ball cleanly so it will clear the heads and transition properly to retain energy.  This 180 flip of certain things is what causes the rift.  Somebody comes in and you tell them something different from what they know, they go somewhere else to somebody "old school," who gives them what they think they want, and their problems never get fixed.  When they finally break down and decide to try it your way, it could be months or years and possible physical problems later.  Drastic problems meaning that people have had to have surgery or have developed tendonitis, carpal tunnel, cramping, loss of feeling, all because of a bad fit.  So I'm not a primadonna on a power trip trying to educate the world, I'm honestly trying to correct some basic issues that come up, nothing revolutionary, but just some things that have honestly been causing a lot of people a lot of problems, and that's why I'm asking the questions, just trying to get all the information and feedback that I can. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2017
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 03:35:23 PM »
Any customer that won't listen to what you have to say in the pro shop sure isn't going to go to a seminar.

There are basically 3 types of customers.  The ones who don't know anything and think whatever you do is the correct way.  Then there are the ones that think they know but when you explain why something isn't the way you would do it, will listen and let you do it the correct way.  Then there are the people think they know more than the guy in the shop.  No matter what you tell them they will always be right.

A good businessman will qualify his customer, educate those who will listen, and service the rest.

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 04:03:45 PM »
Any customer that won't listen to what you have to say in the pro shop sure isn't going to go to a seminar.

There are basically 3 types of customers.  The ones who don't know anything and think whatever you do is the correct way.  Then there are the ones that think they know but when you explain why something isn't the way you would do it, will listen and let you do it the correct way.  Then there are the people think they know more than the guy in the shop.  No matter what you tell them they will always be right.

A good businessman will qualify his customer, educate those who will listen, and service the rest.

Yeah, you're right, I know it's not going to magically solve problems and that people are going to flock out and just soak up everything we say.  It's basically a chance to get those that want to listen and learn some real focused time outside of what we can offer them in the shop when the lights are on and we have things going on.  However, I think there's a small percentage that if given the proper amount of time and attention may get on the right page.  With some people either we don't have the time or they don't have the time for a couple hour discussion about things.  I really appreciate the input, any other suggestions or comments?  Presentation with this is really important. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2017
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 04:27:44 PM »
I have found that if you want people to listen or be re-educated, never tell them that they, their ball, or what ever, is wrong.  As soon as you tell them it's wrong they get defensive.  You tell them it isn't how you would do it.  Then they will want to know how you would do it.  You can then explain to them how and why you would change something.  10 minutes tops.

I think your time would be better spent putting together a video for youtube or a power point/video on cd you could give to people.

I applaud your enthusiasm, but the percentage of customers that will be interested in something like this is minimal at best.

Armourboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 06:03:32 PM »
It just really depend on your area imo. If you think it would help a number of people than go for it. However if you think one or two people would show up I agree with some of the others, you may be better off doing a video to hand out.

As far as wanting to know stuff, I'll be honest, I'm one of those people that just hopes my Pro Shop guy knows what the hell he is doing. However, if I were to go to something like this ( and I probably would) I would want to see a step by step process of why things are the way they are.

How do I know I'm being properly fitted?
How do I know whether my Pro Shop guy is drilling the ball to match what I'm looking for?
How does changing surfaces work?
What difference do different grips and thumb slugs make?

Yeah on here  it may be things that almost everyone knows, but you would be surprised how many bowler have zero clue what is going on, and are simply too scared to ask because they don't want to look stupid.

For instance, I've been bowling since the late 90's and still can't tell you what purpose a thumb slug serves over just a regular thumb hole. Might be a good question for the noob forums  ;)

kidlost2000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5789
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 06:13:24 PM »
The problem has been bowlers hear something from one person and from then on believe it to be a stone cold fact and when the pro shop says otherwise your problems are born. Now with the internet that has furthered. Too much information is now available with a lack of knowledge for understanding context and relevance.

We see it all the time on here. Many proshops also dont know or understand a lot of these things and continue to give wrong information.

Bowling balls have come a long way. If the manufacture says a ball is made for heavy oil, don't sweat the core numbers because it is all factored in to the design.

It can be manipulated by the layout and x-hole locations but it isn't usually necessary. Surface is the next big adjustment to consider.

To me this point is very valid when you watch demo days. The bowling balls aren't drilled for a specific bowler just letting the ball do what it was intended for based on its design.

I think a lof of this has to do with too much information and people over thinking the basics. It really isn't as complicated as it is made out to be. (ive been guilty of this before)
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

dR3w

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 10:25:43 PM »
I think a lof of this has to do with too much information and people over thinking the basics. It really isn't as complicated as it is made out to be. (ive been guilty of this before)

Just to expand on this, how many drilling techniques have been created, modified, and changed?   How many concepts are argued over?

Example, Hammer tries to make things easier.  They create a symbol on the ball that isn't the mass bias, but looks like a mass bias.  It is explained on their drilling sheet for a certain ball.  Then they see it was confusing, so they change it. 

There are topics that bowlers continue to fight over.  The argument over Carry-Down as a myth.  For a while there was pin up vs pin down.  Dual angle.  There is the Storm pin buffer.  And on and on.  Everyone is trying to make their own system.  Arguments over whether CG matters.  People argue on this site that Blueprint is false.  Topics that even the bowling "experts" can't agree upon. 

I am not trying to argue these points, just that there are a lot of conflicting ideas and systems out there.  It is difficult for the people who actually spend the time to learn, let alone the average Joe who bowls 3 games a week.

The guy in our area asks the customers, do you want it to hook early or late.  Then he puts the pin where he thinks that will do that.  He doesn't try to find PAP, rev rate, tilt or anything like that.  He will go off the drill sheet if you pick one from that.   And even with that simplistic, perhaps even archaic system, he has a loyal following ... along with his share of detractors of course. 

Anyone agree?

Backwards

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2013, 12:02:28 AM »
I do not run a shop, but I am probably one of the more difficult customers!  I always have a plan for a ball that I buy - reaction shape, likely conditions for use, release type, etc.  I usually have a layout and final surface in mind, as well.

A few years back, I told my driller the reaction I was hoping to buy.  We agreed on a ball (but not layout) and he ordered it.  It was already drilled when I went in to get it.  I was annoyed, but I bet most people expect the ball to be ready to roll when they pick it up.  I do not use this driller any longer.

My current shop guy solved me quickly - mark the ball with a layout, discuss alternatives, make me approve before drilling.  I always leave happy with the service I purchased, even if the ball doesn't work well for me.  After all, I made the choices and received what I ordered.

Thinking about it from a different angle - You walk into a restaurant and order a cheeseburger and fries.  The server looks at you and suggests that a salad might be a better option, based on his observations of you.  You thank him for the advice, but do not change your order.  There will be "tension" when he puts a salad in front of you, although the server may actually be correct about the best choice.

Armourboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2013, 01:44:40 AM »
Difference is though you know exactly what the Cheeseburger tastes like and salad tastes like, you may not always know what the ball can, should or will do.

I see it more like walking in and telling a chef how to cook your meal. Sure you can tell him how you like it, but you aren't going to tell him how long to sear it, when to flip, or even what method to use.

I view Pro Shop guys the same way, I may know what kind of ball I want, and how I like  it done, but at the end of the day he's the guy searing it and flipping it so to speak.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:49:20 AM by Armourboy »

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2013, 08:16:24 AM »
The problem has been bowlers hear something from one person and from then on believe it to be a stone cold fact and when the pro shop says otherwise your problems are born. Now with the internet that has furthered. Too much information is now available with a lack of knowledge for understanding context and relevance.

We see it all the time on here. Many proshops also dont know or understand a lot of these things and continue to give wrong information.

Bowling balls have come a long way. If the manufacture says a ball is made for heavy oil, don't sweat the core numbers because it is all factored in to the design.

It can be manipulated by the layout and x-hole locations but it isn't usually necessary. Surface is the next big adjustment to consider.

To me this point is very valid when you watch demo days. The bowling balls aren't drilled for a specific bowler just letting the ball do what it was intended for based on its design.

I think a lof of this has to do with too much information and people over thinking the basics. It really isn't as complicated as it is made out to be. (ive been guilty of this before)

The first sentence sums it up pretty well.  The demo days comment is pretty relevant too.  We are just trying to boil it down, strip away the needless stuff, correct some ideas and thought processes, and spend the time we don't have during shop hours for the people that want it.  Yeah, I don't think it's going to be something people will flock to, and it will be primarily aimed at adults, but we have a really good youth bowling program here, and I'm guessing most of the attendees will be youth bowlers, which in my mind is just as good.  If we can get them off on the right foot, we prevent them from being the average adult bowler that gets bad information and passes it around.

And I do plan to make youtube videos, it will have to be split into several sections.  It's basic stuff and not a whole lot of information, but we want to really focus on conceptual understanding. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 08:17:39 AM »
I think a lof of this has to do with too much information and people over thinking the basics. It really isn't as complicated as it is made out to be. (ive been guilty of this before)

Just to expand on this, how many drilling techniques have been created, modified, and changed?   How many concepts are argued over?

Example, Hammer tries to make things easier.  They create a symbol on the ball that isn't the mass bias, but looks like a mass bias.  It is explained on their drilling sheet for a certain ball.  Then they see it was confusing, so they change it. 

There are topics that bowlers continue to fight over.  The argument over Carry-Down as a myth.  For a while there was pin up vs pin down.  Dual angle.  There is the Storm pin buffer.  And on and on.  Everyone is trying to make their own system.  Arguments over whether CG matters.  People argue on this site that Blueprint is false.  Topics that even the bowling "experts" can't agree upon. 

I am not trying to argue these points, just that there are a lot of conflicting ideas and systems out there.  It is difficult for the people who actually spend the time to learn, let alone the average Joe who bowls 3 games a week.

The guy in our area asks the customers, do you want it to hook early or late.  Then he puts the pin where he thinks that will do that.  He doesn't try to find PAP, rev rate, tilt or anything like that.  He will go off the drill sheet if you pick one from that.   And even with that simplistic, perhaps even archaic system, he has a loyal following ... along with his share of detractors of course. 

Anyone agree?

YES.  This explains it really well, and is in fact one of the opening lines in my seminar.  Technology has exploded, and it evolves so fast that it's hard for even the people that are in the industry full time to keep up with.  Another reason for the seminar. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Long Gone Daddy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5471
Re: Survey: Biggest source of confusion?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 09:00:32 AM »

There's such a rift between bowlers and pro shops right now, and it's creating some rather drastic problems. 


Interesting. I didn't know the tension was that thick. What are the 'drastic' problems you've experienced??

No, there is not a rift between most bowlers and their pro shop right now.  That is your diagnosis.  This is coming from a guy who just said he joined assholes anonymous and admits he is having problems relating to the game, the people that participate in the game, and the centers.  Actually, most advanced bowlers know what they want, know what the driller is talking about.  I have a feeling that where the rift comes into play is when an intermediate or beginner bowler shows up, says he wants a big hook or the ball to go long and snap, and you feeling that you so knowledgable and know everything don't want to take the time to explain the nuances or if you do, that bowler has no idea what you're talking about and doesn't care.  He gets pissed, you get pissed.  Same thing when a hack bowler dares come up to you while you're bowling and asks advice.  Dude, the problem is yours and yours alone.  You don't relate with other people very well.
       
Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

Mainzer