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Author Topic: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP  (Read 1501 times)

da Shiv

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Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« on: February 04, 2004, 03:23:13 AM »
Since my minor attempt to veer the "Post Your Axis" post off course failed, I'm starting my own post.  So there.

My axis coordinates are 5 1/16 over by 1 1/8 up.  That up coordinate is somewhat unusual, although I noticed that seadrive and Goof1073 have an even higher up coordinate.

I'd like to ask king of the mill and any other experienced ball drillers what that high up coordinate tells them.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of that figure, if any?  Does it suggest anything that a bowler with a PAP like that may need to work on?  Is it good, bad, or essentially meaningless as far as how one might approach the game?  Are there drillings that take advantage of such a PAP, or that are detrimental?  Seadrive mentions that his first flare ring almost clips the thumbhole, which makes sense when one has such a high up coordinate.  I guess the main thing I'm interested in is how does such a PAP effect your game, and are there any particular ways to take advantage of it?

Thanks,
Shiv
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bamaster

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2004, 09:55:40 PM »
I don't know exactly, but my instincts tell me that it doesn't say much other than they way you release the ball.  Flexibility of your thumb and your pitches may contribute to this, however I am not sure what that exactly translates to in terms of benefits/issues.

Maybe you could post this question in the Drilling & Layous forum.

Tony
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da Shiv

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 10:06:35 PM »
quote:
Maybe you could post this question in the Drilling & Layous forum.


Yeah, that occurred to me, but I figured this forum gets the most traffic--not that you could tell by the response to this post so far.  Thanks for jumping in.  It's interesting that you mentioned the issue of thumb flexibility.  I, in fact, have quite an inflexible thumb and that figures strongly into my layouts.  I bowled for years (okay, decades) before I finally encountered a competent pro shop operator who took note of that and made the proper adjustments.  Thumb release is still a major issue in my game and something that I struggle with constantly--due to years of bad fit and unfortunate muscle memory.  Ron Clifton's Magic Carpets have been a major help to me with it.

Shiv
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mumzie

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2004, 12:16:13 PM »
I, too, am curious. Mine (with my standard release) is 1 1/8 up as well.
4 1/4 X 1 1/8 to be exact.

I would love to understand the significance of that.
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T-GOD

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2004, 12:54:22 PM »
da shiv, when your axis coordinate is up 1 1/8", this means that that you have a lot of tilt and/or are spinning the ball slightly. The higher up the number is, the more you're spinning/tilting the ball and the more the ball will slide before it hooks.

So, you should tend to bowl better when the lanes are drier. =:^D

Goof1073

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2004, 01:03:29 PM »
Shiv...

T-God's answer is pretty much what I have been told by some other folks.  Ofcourse any one person's ability to handle drier conditions is still dependant on the amount of turn, speed, ball, etc...but everything being equal we "higher ups" are supposed to be able to get the ball down the lane easier.
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da Shiv

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2004, 01:38:36 PM »
Oh, boy.  Dry lanes have actually been my nemesis.  A couple months ago, I bought a Sonic X for dry lanes, and the first few times I tried to use it, it went like an arrow--the lanes weren't dry enough for it.  I considered this good, because I had bought it for dry lanes and I liked knowing that if the lanes got any worse I'd have something to handle it.  Well, for the last few weeks, I've been using the Sonic X and getting quite a bit of movement out of it.  Being at the bottom of my lineup of resin balls (top being heavy oil equipment and bottom being for dry) got me worried that I had nowhere left to go equipment-wise if the lanes continued to deteriorate, so last week I picked up a Slate Blue Gargoyle, scheduled for it's debut tomorrow when I'll go in early before league to try it out and compare it's reaction to my drier lane resin stuff.

It appears that what I need to work on next is a speed increase.  My major accomplishment this season has been to start getting a cleaner thumb release, which has increased my revs.  I accomplish this best at a bit slower speed than I used to use.  When I start to go with a higher pushaway and a higher backswing to increase my speed, I tend to start clenching my thumb again.  I think I'm afraid I'll lose the ball if I don't grip it tighter.  I used to throw a high speed spinner, but with a clenched thumb and late release.  My ball speed way overmatched my limited revs.  Then, dry lanes were my friend.  Now, with a cleaner release and more revs, I'm afraid that it has come to the point where my revs somewhat overmatch my speed.  Clearly, I have to work on getting my speed up while maintaining a relaxed thumb.

When I threw the clenched thumb high speed spinner, my PAP (which fluctuated somewhat) averaged out to be around 4 1/4 over by 1/2 up.  Now, with my cleaner release, my PAP has changed to a pretty consistent 5 1/16 over by 1 1/8 up.  The over part makes sense to me, and seems in line with most bowlers.  That up coordinate, though, is somewhat unusual and I still wonder where it came from.

Thanks for the responses.  I'm still hoping to hear more from king of the mill as well.  Even if this topic has little practical use, I still like to understand these things.

Shiv
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Berreez

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2004, 01:45:01 PM »
How about any of the touring pro's PAP's? Does anyone know theirs? It would be interesting to compare theirs to the members on here.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2004, 02:06:59 PM »
I know a couple of the local national touring pro’s axis and they are nothing remarkable.

Both are 5 ¼ to 5 ½ over and ½ inch or less up.

I also know some of the better bowlers in town axis and they are all pretty much in the same range.

The best bowler around here (who is now retired) threw a spinner. I believe his axis was 4 1/8  and 3/16 up.

I’m not sure much can be made about ability from knowing a PAP.

northface28

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2004, 02:16:11 PM »
I remember reading that Jason Couch's pap was 4 in over.
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Goof1073

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2004, 02:47:39 PM »
These are what I could find looking quickly:

Robert Smith:  5-1/4" over & 5/8" up
Chris Barnes:  5" over & 1/4" up
Jason Couch:  4-2/8" over & 3/8" up
Mika Koivuniemi:  5-7/8" straight over
Walter Ray Williams Jr.:  5-7/8" over & 1/4" up
Norm Duke:  5-3/4" straight over

da Shiv

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Re: Significance of a high "up" coordinate on PAP
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2004, 07:40:53 AM »
Thanks, king of the mill.  I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with your diagram, but I think I follow the text.  Are you saying that a high up coordinate can come from releasing the ball with fingers more underneath the ball than on the side?  I mean, I release the ball with my hand on the side of it to get axis rotation, but as the ball comes off my thumb, my fingers don't so much wrap around the side of the ball as curl through it, if that way of putting it makes sense.  I have not seen myself on videotape since I've achieved my cleaner thumb release, but I think my release is sort of a kindergarten version of what Patrick Healey does.

I'm sure that some of the other issues you mention come into play as well.  I'm big and fairly strong, but I have small hands for my size.  Not only is my thumb quite inflexible, but the last knuckles on my bowling fingers suffer from a bit of arthritis from years of poorly fitted bowling balls.  They don't hurt, but they lack flexibility and I have to use reverse pitch or else they do hurt.  I also have very fair skin which gets quite dry in the wintertime.  By nighttime my fingers are frequently like teflon--so lacking in any kind of tackiness that it's difficult to pick up small objects unless I can get my fingers around them.  I've NEVER needed to use those hand drier fans built into most ball returns.  My problem is the opposite.  I always find myself momentarily surprised when I slap someone's hand after they have delivered a good shot and find that their hand is sweaty.  That just never happens to me.  

Anyway, thanks to all for their contributions.  I guess the bottom line is that there is no particular advantage or disadvantage to be derived from a high up coordinate.

Shiv

P.S.  Hey, king of the mill--I just noticed the time of your reply...1:50 a.m?  Must be keeping late hours at that pro shop, eh?
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Edited on 2/6/2004 8:39 AM
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top