Author Topic: Team Handicap Max ?? (Read 9936 times)

THIRTYSIXRED · « **on:** April 25, 2010, 08:20:56 AM »

We are a struggling league, and allowed a couple teams who although have improved during the season are still well below the skill level of many of the top teams.

Too many top tier teams are threatening to quit the league if a Team Cap for handicap is not enacted. Right now handicap is set at 90% of 230 (with no team or individual max).

Anyone ever have to set rules to try and keep all parties happy. If the league loses just a couple more teams it will most likely dissolve before next season. Thanks.

Atochabsh · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2010, 02:08:35 AM »

quote:
As long as you are not 100%, the higher average will always win if both bowlers hit their average exactly.

No this is not so. It just doesn't happen that everyone hits their average exactly every game. That's a fairy tale land.

In handicap leagues the IMPROVING bowler has the edge, not the high or the low average bowler. Only the improving bowler. If you have a couple improving bowlers on your league and they can take instruction and improve, then you are a shoe in.

Wein

Atochabsh · « **Reply #32 on:** April 29, 2010, 02:13:04 AM »

quote:
In most cases the higher average teams win.

This is not true, IMO.

Only when you are playing recreational teams and social teams that don't care to improve don't care to practice may it be true. And even then not that often if you are calculating handicap of 90%.

I guarantee that if there is a habitually dominating team in a mixed handicap league that there is some other loop hole that gives them a different edge.

Erin

Atochabsh · « **Reply #33 on:** April 29, 2010, 02:24:08 AM »

quote:
Tuff competition??? I like how higher average bowlers know everything about someone with a low average.

1. Only bowl 3 games a week: Maybe they have a family to take care of and they can only bowl 1 night a week. Maybe they have a job that is very demanding. Maybe they have school.

2. Never get coaching: Maybe they don't have the time. Maybe they don't have the money for it.

3. Have a ball that is 10+ years old: Again maybe they can't afford it. Not everyone can go out and buy 5 - 6 bowling balls a year.

Based on you statement, I wouldn't want to bowl in your league. You all seem like a bunch of little whiny elitists.

You are so scared of the bowler with the 165 average or lower that you make sure he has no chance against you. Because if he has that one or two nights that he beats you with his handicap...you all cry like little babies saying how unfair it is for him to beat you.

You want tough competition...make your league scratch.

So what part of this don't you agree with? You basically touched on everything that holds back people from improving in this game. And its not their fault, just their point of view.

Now tell me if I bowl two leagues a week, I get coaching every two weeks or every month, and I practice two days a week (in addition to the leagues...that's bowling 4 out of 7 days a week) and I read articles, magazines, books and various internet sites..........why shouldn't I have a better chance at scoring higher? I'm putting much more into this sport then the others you are intimating should be made equal by handicap. Why in the he...ck shouldn't I have an advantage?

Now sure the non effort bowler is going to have some career nights. There's nothing you can do about that. And they will win some games. If you have an entire team of such bowlers then they will win

If you don't want competition then just collect prize fund and split it evenly at the end of league. Don't bother to keep score, don't bother to count wins and loses. I mean it!!! why even keep score if you are going to eliminate the benefit of "effort" from the game?

Erin

shelley · « **Reply #34 on:** April 29, 2010, 06:56:23 AM »

quote:
But what you might suggest is a difference in point system. We do 90% of the difference between the two teams. That seems to even things out.

This is mathematically equivalent, up to roundoff error, of individual handicap, if the base for handicap is set higher than the highest average in the league. If you have no one in the league averaging higher than 220, this is the same as 90% of the difference to 225 or 230 or even 300.

What the high average bowler doesn't see when the base is set high is that while he's giving more pins to his opponent, he's getting an equal number of pins. It's a wash for every pin above the league high average.

SH

SH

trash heap · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2010, 09:03:03 AM »

quote:
Why in the he...ck shouldn''t I have an advantage?

You do have an advantage. You are the better bowler even if the handicap was at 100%. You are consistent from week to week. Your game is better.

Now lets take the 165 average person (495 = 3 game series). This person obviously doesn''t bowl as well as you. This person may have two nights out of the entire season and shoots a good 600 series. For those career nights, that bowler has nights shooting 420 - 450 series.

Now lets compare with someone with 220 average.

1. 80% of 230

- 220 Average person will have handicap of 8
- 165 average person will have handicap of 52

- If they bowl their average, the 220 average bowler wins 228 to 217. That is a difference of 11 in one game. A whole mark. 33 for 3 game series. If you have 5 bowlers for 3 games it comes out to 165 for a series. Is that fair?

Now before anyone starts with this garbage about bowling your average doesn''t happen, think about it, out of the two bowlers who is going to hit their average consistently every week.

- To me this percentage is way to much of an advantage for the higher average bowler. They are already a better bowler, why do they need any more help.

2. 90% of 230

- 220 Average person will have handicap of 9
- 165 average person will have handicap of 58

- If they bowl their average, the 220 average bowler wins 229 to 223. Difference of 6.

3. 100% of 210 (This is for those who think the base is too high)

- 220 Average person will have handicap of 0
- 165 average person will have handicap of 35

- If they bowl their average, the 220 average bowler wins 220 to 200. Now the difference is 20.

If you have issues with people sandbagging then that''s a whole different problem.

Most low average bowlers are genuine and try their best. Handicap leagues are what they are designed for. To even out the competition (different levels competing). It should not be automatic win for the higher average team. They got to earn it.

Edited on 4/29/2010 9:28 AM

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2010, 12:07:26 PM »

Theres one thing this thread has shown. That there is no handicap system
that everyone will say is fair and agree upon.

No handicap system can take in account someone having a good night or

improving. If there was one, it would defeat the purpose of handicap in

the first place.

The high average bowlers will never be happy with any handicap system that

doesnt guarantee they will win, when bowling against lower average

players.

And if you have a handicap system that favors higher averages. The lower

average bowlers will get tired of always losing with a system that doesn't

even give them a chance to win, even when they bowl good or improve.

Then when they start leaving, the league will shrink, the prize money will

dry up, the high average bowlers will complain about it and move to

another bigger handicap league. Then the whole process start over again.

It use to be there were scratch leagues for the better bowlers and

handicap leagues for the lower averages.

But as handicap leagues grew, the prize money went up. The bowlers that

improved and became higher average bowlers on the handicap leagues, stayed

on them and didn't go to the scratch leagues.

They figured they would dominate the handicap league and they did. The

scratch leagues seen their leagues shrink and what was going on over in

the handicap leagues $$$$$, so they went there and the scratch leagues

died.

Then the handicap changes started, trying to compensate for all the high

averages to keep it fair.

So now here we are.

They always say "If you don't like handicap, go bowl scratch" but lets

face it no one will.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2010, 12:32:42 PM »

Heres a thought, don''t worry about changing handicap.

Put a low cap on team averages. That way youll have teams with similar averages and handicaps going against each other.

That way you wont have teams loaded up with 4 or 5, 220, 230 average bowlers and no handicap. Going against teams with just 150-160 averages and a lot of handicap.

(Now I know that would never happen, that loaded teams would never go for it. They know in the long run they win more than they lose.)

Edited on 4/29/2010 12:33 PM

gsback · « **Reply #38 on:** April 30, 2010, 07:47:56 AM »

quote:
Theres one thing this thread has shown. That there is no handicap system that everyone will say is fair and agree upon.

Amen to that....and I said the exact same thing. Someone is always going to feel they are getting the shaft.

A cap on team averages, while helping to a point, will still end up with the same results. You are still going to get teams that sit at the top that are going to be above others. The number may be smaller, yes, but it's still going to be there.

One thing that plays heavily into this is the type of point system. My team has 5 bowlers. We have a 228 average, 204 average, high 195 average, 185 average and then our 'handicap', a 145 average. As I said in prior post.....I have only one a little over 1/2 of my points since we do 20 point system and go head to head with person bowling against. I 689 2 weeks ago....and my 2 215 games lost to a 140+ average bowler because he shot some 20 pins over average for the 2 games. So for those that sit there and preach that high average wins.....it's not always the case. And a career night is not needed!!

As good as higher average bowlers may be....changes to the lanes may also affect them more than the 165 average bowler.
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!

g thing is back....with a vengeance!!

www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 30, 2010, 09:06:36 AM »

quote:
So for those that sit there and preach that high average wins.....it's not always the case. And a career night is not needed!!

Its not that the higher average/more skilled bowlers/teams always win. Its that in the long run, regardless of the handicap they win more often than they lose.

Higher average/more skilled bowlers/teams I think a lot of the time, Just see their losses against the lower average/higher handicap bowlers/teams .

They dont think of all times they won against the lower average/higher handicap bowlers/teams. Or the times they lost to them just because they didnt bowl good.

Plus they dont see all the times, the lower average/higher handicap bowlers/teams lost.

It just seems sometimes in the discussion about handicap, that the better bowlers. Are wanting to penalize lower average bowlers for having a good night or for improving their skills (which eveyone is supposed to be trying to do).

Crash7189 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 30, 2010, 09:18:26 AM »

This is to Trash heap. There is a least 20 guy's in the league that have a better ave then me. I love to bowl against them. makes me want to get better. When I started in that league I was a 185 bowler, I am now 224. so If I can do it they also can get better. I did practice, got coaching and then became a coach. The part about coaching, I am a Silver level coach and have offered my service's to any one that would like my help. Only 2 people have asked for it. We have also worked a deal with our pro shop any one in our league who trades in there very old ball will get a nice discount. We want our league to get better and our bowlers to get better. By the way I am not sacred to bowl any one. IF I lose, I lose If I win, I win. I was just saying the lower ave Bowlers do want to get any better but always want more handicap. If there was any effort to try I do not think any one would object in our league for more handicap, but most do not try. I know some people no matter what they do, will only be as good as there talent will allow them to be. But until you try how will you know. Trash Heap I do agree we do have some whiners. And those guy's are the most fun to beat. The ones who think every time they get near the pocket it should be a strike. We have some great bowlers one of our best has 5 regional and 1 national pba title. And if you want real competition I bowl in a sport league with guy's who have won a USBC eagle and 1 guy who has 7 PBA National titles and I never complain that I can not beat them because of handicap I just work to get better every year. It is hard to Find a sport league in our area, I have to travel 54 miles for real competition. House ave 224 Sport ave 206. I could have ripped on you they way you tried to rip me. Until you know all the facts I would ask for details next time before you open your mouth. I just want people to have fun and bowl better so our sport will grow and be around. Weekly league is to come and have fun. and if you learn the game bowl better you can have more fun. Every year we have a clinic with Fred Borden and Ron Hatfield in our center It is very hard to get the lower ave bowlers to this clinic we make it very affordable the house breaks even on the Clinic we want people to get better so maybe they might join more leagues ETC.

That All Folks

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 30, 2010, 09:48:36 AM »

while informative, interesting and surprisingly relevant what shelley wrote still and will never change my mind. I have a problem with a league setting the bar too high and makes even less sense placing the percentage at 90% or more. 200 average+ bowlers shouldnâ€™t get handicap, 150 bowlers shouldnâ€™t get 80 pins handicap either. What is so unfair about 90% of 210? .

ccrider · « **Reply #42 on:** April 30, 2010, 12:50:44 PM »

There is a lot of truth in what Auto says. Right now I am very hard to beat because I have improved, primarily in my spare shooting, and as a result, bowl 10 to 15 pins over my average almost every game. We have another member on our team that has made greater improvement and as a result, is 20+ over most games. We are hard to beat, but ended up losing to a team with more pins then our team, with similar improved players. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

In the end, the best bowler for that night wins. Strap up and bowl.

quote:
quote:
As long as you are not 100%, the higher average will always win if both bowlers hit their average exactly.

No this is not so. It just doesn't happen that everyone hits their average exactly every game. That's a fairy tale land.

In handicap leagues the IMPROVING bowler has the edge, not the high or the low average bowler. Only the improving bowler. If you have a couple improving bowlers on your league and they can take instruction and improve, then you are a shoe in.

Wein

--------------------
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.

Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.

shelley · « **Reply #43 on:** April 30, 2010, 07:58:03 PM »

quote:
while informative, interesting and surprisingly relevant what shelley wrote still and will never change my mind. I have a problem with a league setting the bar too high and makes even less sense placing the percentage at 90% or more. 200 average+ bowlers shouldnâ€™t get handicap, 150 bowlers shouldnâ€™t get 80 pins handicap either. What is so unfair about 90% of 210? .

Trust me, if "par" were 220 back in the '60s and '70s, you'd be claiming that 220-average bowlers just shouldn't get handicap.

Your argument is historical and, frankly, stupid. But you know that, I know that, and everyone else knows that. Next year, I'll have another legitimate, interesting, and relevant explanation for why handicap is fair and you'll have the same "but 200-average bowlers shouldn't get handicap" argument you've always had. And the year after that, we'll do it again. I'll see you then.

SH

THSOWL · « **Reply #44 on:** April 30, 2010, 10:11:30 PM »

I believe handicap should be based on the highest league average or better yet 90 percent of the difference between team averages. Consider two teams with a handicap base of 220 and handicap of 90%.

First team avg. HDCP Second team Avg. HDCP
First bowler 230 0 First bowler 220 0
2nd 200 18 2nd 210 9
3rd 190 27 3rd 190 27
4th 190 27 4th 190 27
5th 200 18 5th 200 18
Total 1010 90 Total 1010 81

So how is it fair that two teams with the exact same average could have a 9 pin handicap difference.

Plus what no one has mentioned but which I also believe to be true is that in the last two frames the better bowler, regardless of level, is more likely to perform at our above his level leading to more wins. I don't begrudge this advantage but I hate that two teams with exact same average could have differing handicaps. Over the course of a 35 week season the team with the 230 average bowler has a distinct advantage even though as a team they have the same total average. In the above example handicap based on 230 would give both teams equal handicap.

gsback · « **Reply #45 on:** May 03, 2010, 05:20:21 AM »

quote:
I believe handicap should be based on the highest league average or better yet 90 percent of the difference between team averages. Consider two teams with a handicap base of 220 and handicap of 90%.

First team avg. HDCP Second team Avg. HDCP
First bowler 230 0 First bowler 220 0
2nd 200 18 2nd 210 9
3rd 190 27 3rd 190 27
4th 190 27 4th 190 27
5th 200 18 5th 200 18
Total 1010 90 Total 1010 81

So how is it fair that two teams with the exact same average could have a 9 pin handicap difference.

Plus what no one has mentioned but which I also believe to be true is that in the last two frames the better bowler, regardless of level, is more likely to perform at our above his level leading to more wins. I don't begrudge this advantage but I hate that two teams with exact same average could have differing handicaps. Over the course of a 35 week season the team with the 230 average bowler has a distinct advantage even though as a team they have the same total average. In the above example handicap based on 230 would give both teams equal handicap.

Depending on where you bowl, the first team should have a -9 handicap for the 230 average bowler which puts both teams on par with one another.

We use what you have above and I've already complained about it. I average 224 in the Youth/Adult league and they do 90% of 210 and they don't use negative averages. I wasn't there for the meeting and couldn't vote on it, but I've voted for the negative average in my Monday night league where we do 90% of 230. And yes, I've had negative this year as well.

And last....my opinion for handicap is to make it close....not to completely level out the playing field. There's no way to make it so that everyone equals out. Even a 100% handicap doesn't do that because of the variable that go into bowling. Again.....I've won 59% of my points, and that's a little high only because I've been throwing well and have been winning 2 out of 3. But the other high average bowlers....not always the same!!
--------------------
BR.com.....going down the toilet one nugget at a time!!

g thing is back....with a vengeance!!

www.visionarybowling.com - Accept no substitute for the very best there is!!

Author Topic: Team Handicap Max ?? (Read 9936 times)

THIRTYSIXRED

Team Handicap Max ??

Atochabsh

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Atochabsh

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Atochabsh

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

shelley

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

trash heap

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Aloarjr810

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Aloarjr810

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

gsback

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Aloarjr810

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

Crash7189

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

BrianCRX90

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

ccrider

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

shelley

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

THSOWL

Re: Team Handicap Max ??

gsback

Re: Team Handicap Max ??