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Author Topic: The end result of league problems  (Read 6746 times)

12XSECH

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The end result of league problems
« on: January 06, 2016, 07:04:39 AM »
After talking to the USBC we knew our rights as a team to leave a league without forfeiting prize money... The league also got the same answer that we did when they called (not in their favor) so...we decided to stay and finish the year... Last night before the league started there was a "meeting"...They voted on "can a team leave the league"... As a team captain, I didnt vote...But since this rule wasnt in the league rules, which we never got anyway, they decided to vote on it. The vote was that only a medical reason or work reason a team can leave. This alone is nonsense but we didnt vote because at seasons end we are done with this league. Week 19 and we still dont have a copy of league rules.

 

itsallaboutme

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 07:13:23 AM »
You've already stated that you leave work an hour early to be able to make it to league on time.  If you really wanted out you could have just played their game and told them you were no longer able to leave work early.  Problem solved.

12XSECH

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 07:31:07 AM »
I could have done that...And still can if work gets crazy and I cant leave. But I never quit a league but was so close to doing it. I have a lot of friends in the league and thought sticking it out would be the best choice. The league isnt run right but...I got my point across to them to what they can and cant do.

Bowler19525

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 07:54:21 AM »
Work schedule is the primary reason why I no longer bowl Fall/33 week leagues.  For the shorter 17 week summer leagues, I am able to negotiate a different work schedule for bowling day (8:00-4:30 with a 30 min lunch, as opposed to 8:30-5:30 with a 1hr lunch the other 4 days.)

I have only ever quit 1 league, and it was due to medical.  However, I did not receive any prize/point money.  I paid 2 weeks and walked away.  The OP's league did the right thing by voting on the issue and adding it to the rules.  What they need to do now is simply distribute an updated version of the league rules to each team captain.  With only 8 teams, how hard could that possibly be?

The USBC Rules pretty much told them what they were within the guidelines to do based on "sufficient reason".  The vote simply clarified and made official what is "sufficient reason" to leave that particular league.

t1buck

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 09:41:44 AM »
Just a FYI if you did not vote on the rule change. THey cannot change it during mid season. It takes a 100% vote to change or add any rule during the season. If the league contact USBC they will be told the same thing.

trash heap

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 11:48:25 AM »
Just a FYI if you did not vote on the rule change. THey cannot change it during mid season. It takes a 100% vote to change or add any rule during the season. If the league contact USBC they will be told the same thing.

Excellent Point.

Quote
Rule 122 - Meetings
League meetings are conducted under the following requirements:
a. The secretary shall notify the members or team captains of all league meetings.
b. To conduct business, a quorum must be in attendance. In youth leagues, the league supervisor or official must also be in attendance.
c. Absentee and proxy votes are not acceptable. Only members present are eligible to vote.

Rules shall be adopted at a meeting prior to the start of the league schedule by the board of directors, unless the league elects to have its rules adopted by the membership. After the league schedule begins, a change in the league rules and approved prize list can be made only with the written consent of every team captain or designated representative.

Thought I share the rule.


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Bowler19525

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 12:54:56 PM »
No sanctioned league that I have ever been on has followed Rule 122 once the league begins.  They have done just as the OP's league did.  They gather everyone together before or after bowling, propose the new or revised rule, ask for the "yeas or nays", and count the votes.  If there are more yeas than nays, the rule or change is approved.  If there are more nays, the proposal is rejected and everyone goes along their merry way.

This is where the USBC starts to fall apart.  They establish a 100 page rule book that establishes the minutia of the game, yet they use ambiguous language such as "sufficient reason" and wonder why everyone has a different interpretation of the rule.  Then they try to condense a typical league rules sheet to 2 pages (based on the sample in the 45 page League Operations Handbook.)  Leagues have a hard enough time abiding by the 2 page league rule sheet, let alone the full 100 page rule book.  No wonder leagues are dropping the sanctioning and just wanting to bowl for "fun".

12XSECH

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 04:46:00 PM »
Thanks for the rules...I appreciate that!

trash heap

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 05:47:35 PM »
No sanctioned league that I have ever been on has followed Rule 122 once the league begins.  They have done just as the OP's league did.  They gather everyone together before or after bowling, propose the new or revised rule, ask for the "yeas or nays", and count the votes.  If there are more yeas than nays, the rule or change is approved.  If there are more nays, the proposal is rejected and everyone goes along their merry way.

This is where the USBC starts to fall apart.  They establish a 100 page rule book that establishes the minutia of the game, yet they use ambiguous language such as "sufficient reason" and wonder why everyone has a different interpretation of the rule.  Then they try to condense a typical league rules sheet to 2 pages (based on the sample in the 45 page League Operations Handbook.)  Leagues have a hard enough time abiding by the 2 page league rule sheet, let alone the full 100 page rule book.  No wonder leagues are dropping the sanctioning and just wanting to bowl for "fun".

Have you ever been part of a league when a vote was done to redistribute the prize money differently half way through the season?

Rules like 122 are necessary so things don't change, unless agreed by everyone 100%. 

Some of the worst leagues I played in were non-sanction leagues. So much sandbagging and cheating. One league lived up to phrase "If you're not cheating. you're not winning!"

No rules sounds like a good idea, until you have a dispute and there is money on the line.

I will give an incident that happened last year in a so call "FUN MIXED LEAGUE".  A bowler comes into the center to pre-bowl early in the week, because he is going to be working late on league night. Shoots his pre-bowl games. Finds out at the last minute he is not working late.  He decides to go bowl and "HAVE FUN" with his team.

League Secretary has no idea of the rules. Let's the guy bowl with his team. Apparently bowls much better than his pre-bowl scores. Captain of other team is ticked off. Thinks this guy came in purposely to bowl better than his sucky pre-bowl scores.

What should happen? (They are there to have "FUN!"  Who cares what his pre-bowl scores were.)
 
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Bowler19525

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 08:07:55 AM »

Have you ever been part of a league when a vote was done to redistribute the prize money differently half way through the season?

Rules like 122 are necessary so things don't change, unless agreed by everyone 100%. 

Some of the worst leagues I played in were non-sanction leagues. So much sandbagging and cheating. One league lived up to phrase "If you're not cheating. you're not winning!"

No rules sounds like a good idea, until you have a dispute and there is money on the line.

I will give an incident that happened last year in a so call "FUN MIXED LEAGUE".  A bowler comes into the center to pre-bowl early in the week, because he is going to be working late on league night. Shoots his pre-bowl games. Finds out at the last minute he is not working late.  He decides to go bowl and "HAVE FUN" with his team.

League Secretary has no idea of the rules. Let's the guy bowl with his team. Apparently bowls much better than his pre-bowl scores. Captain of other team is ticked off. Thinks this guy came in purposely to bowl better than his sucky pre-bowl scores.

What should happen? (They are there to have "FUN!"  Who cares what his pre-bowl scores were.)
 

Pre-bowling is yet another rule by which the USBC has created ambiguity left open for interpretation.  In Rule 111 they state that individual unopposed pre-bowling is prohibited in adult leagues...unless the league rules state otherwise.  Then they go on to state in 111b that leagues cannot pass a rule that specifically prohibits pre-bowling by teams in the event of, among other things, "sufficient cause" or an "emergency situation".  The USBC loves to throw "sufficient cause" in wherever they can.

They further state in the rule book : "An emergency is defined as an unforeseen combination of circumstances, making it impossible for a team to field a legal lineup. The reasons for not being able to bowl would not have to be catastrophic; just beyond the control of the team members."  That's just brilliant.

In the case of an individual who is allowed to pre-bowl, it is more common sense than anything that when you pre-bowl those are your official scores.  People thinking they can then show up during the session for which they pre-bowled, bowl, and use potentially better scores instead are just delusional.  Regardless of whether the league is sanctioned or not, the league Secretary and President in this case simply say "hey, you pre-bowled.  Feel free to stay and hang out with us, but you already paid and your scores are already recorded."  If for some strange reason, the Secretary doesn't know the rules and lets the person bowl, they need a new Secretary.

trash heap

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 10:46:18 AM »
Quote
They further state in the rule book : "An emergency is defined as an unforeseen combination of circumstances, making it impossible for a team to field a legal lineup. The reasons for not being able to bowl would not have to be catastrophic; just beyond the control of the team members."  That's just brilliant.

Yeah kind of agree, the wording could be a little bit better on this, especially the last statement. 

In the end we know that people are just going to give the acceptable excuse (truth or lie) for their reason not to bowl. It would be pretty stupid for someone to tell the league their reason for not showing up that night was "I just didn't feel like it!".

In my local association this issue is split between members. There are some very diehard bowlers that strongly believe you should only bowl the night you are scheduled, and others that look at league night "not as important" versus other things in their life. If they can't make it to the scheduled night, just bowl on another night. No big deal.

Maybe the USBC leaves things open ended in this instance to accommodate everyone.

In my opinion this rule should be clearly defined for every league. It should be voted and discussed within each league every year. The main and biggest reason for this is because it affects the bowling center.

Issues with Pre/Post bowling occur when a league has no rules on this and everyone looks to USBC rules. That first statement causes an uproar, because most pre/post bowling  is "Individual unopposed".
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spmcgivern

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 11:32:34 AM »
In the end we know that people are just going to give the acceptable excuse (truth or lie) for their reason not to bowl. It would be pretty stupid for someone to tell the league their reason for not showing up that night was "I just didn't feel like it!".

In my local association this issue is split between members. There are some very diehard bowlers that strongly believe you should only bowl the night you are scheduled, and others that look at league night "not as important" versus other things in their life. If they can't make it to the scheduled night, just bowl on another night. No big deal.

Here in Houston, it is considered by a LOT of people that tickets to the rodeo justify the "unforeseen" reason and constitute a justifiable reason to pre/post bowl.

Bowler19525

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 12:03:17 PM »
Similar in this area...deer/turkey/bear/bow hunting season. 

AMF300bowler

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 11:38:02 AM »
I would LOVE to see pre and post bowling eliminated entirely. You signed up to bowl 33 weeks at 7:00pm on Tuesday. If you can't bowl, you forfeit.

You can't pre or past play a baseball, football, basketball or hockey game. If you can't play on that scheduled day, you forfeit.

So much simpler. No arguments.
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txbowler

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Re: The end result of league problems
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 01:58:57 PM »
I would LOVE to see pre and post bowling eliminated entirely. You signed up to bowl 33 weeks at 7:00pm on Tuesday. If you can't bowl, you forfeit.

You can't pre or past play a baseball, football, basketball or hockey game. If you can't play on that scheduled day, you forfeit.

So much simpler. No arguments.

If only the world and life was so simple.  Maybe when you signed up you had no idea on week 20 that your daughter's state basketball finals game would be played on Tuesday or on week 27, the computer system at work for which you're responsible for will crash and you will work late to fix it.  But life does happen and I remember a time when I thought "bowling" should come first always.  Then i matured a little.  It's league.  Chill