I agree there is an issue with this....but I will just say this to keep in mind...

You never know what someone is going through.  I only say this because back in October I had 2 nights where I had a pretty massive meltdown.  I didn't do it in front of other bowlers, but I went in the shop and "moved furniture around" quite a bit.

To an onlooker I would have looked like a small child throwing a temper tantrum....and I was....but I was also trying to deal with a cancer diagnosis of my 3 year old son.  I wasn't able to leave it at the door and when things went bad I wasn't able to keep my emotions in control.

I'm not excusing his behavior....but just remember that sometimes there may be something else going on.

The sport is turning people into self entitled little brats. Oh, the ball isn't moving the way you want? People wrecking "your" line? The ball you bought that you haven't changed the surface on is "crap"? Fry about it. No point in getting better. The balls are supposed to do that, aren't they?

There's a method of thinking that says nowadays, if you don't practice, you will still be as good as you used to be. So wrong. You can't think that way, ever.

If his heart is in it, he'll be back next week. If not, he won't.

This could be paired with my letter to USBC regarding the type of bowler it's creating, and something I may have overlooked, the effect house shots have on CHANGING bowlers.  Last night we bowled some good friends, guys I've gone to Nationals with for the better part of the last decade.  A decade ago, people used to practice, people used to bowl 3 or 4 leagues a week.  Now, it doesn't take any practice to shoot 700, it's just looked at as something to avoid wasting time on.  One of my friends on the other team is 60ish, been bowling since the plastic and rubber era, before telescorers and lane machines, actually used to be a pinsetter in his younger days I believe.  Well, we are all higher level bowlers, and we can destroy a shot rather quickly just by ourselves, let alone having both our teams on the same pair, but as it would go, the shot actually held up better last night than it normally does when we bowl each other. 

Anyway, the guy in question has had several 300s and 800s, and despite some of those coming in this high scoring era, he's a guy that has bowled well, has known HOW to bowl, has known how to adjust, has had a solid mental game.  Well he had a rough game his first one, had all 3 in the 10th for 170.  Gets into the second game, clearly confused, pitches one out to 5, it doesn't come back, starts getting tight and completely yanks one, never gets right of 20, picks off the 3 on the left.  After that, he starts drinking faster (he usually has a 2 drink start before he gets there).  By frame 5 of the second game, he's completely lost and just gives up.  Next frame he gets up, starts just flipping the ball out there and turning around.  Frame after that, he trips and takes a couple steps out onto the lane, naturally tracking all the oil on his shoes back through the middle of the approach.  Takes a ball off the rack, brings it back to his bag, opens the bag, raises the ball as high above his head as he can, and slams it into his bag, after which he throws things at his back and kicks his bag.  This is all after knocking a trash can over for the first time of the night on his way back to his bag.  He finishes that game with a 115 to have 285 going in. 

Next game he actually starts with 3 consecutive marks, following which he again falls apart.  The trash can would get knocked over twice more, once emptying completely and needing a floor mat to cover the ice and water spillage right in the middle of one pathway from the seating area to the approaches, he would rev the ball up and throw it super slow, or dump it straight into the gutter, and at the end of the game he even would walk to the 2nd row of dots on the approach, put the ball down, and kick it at the pins.  So after having 55 or 56 in the 3rd frame, he finishes with a 112 for a 397 series. 

After this, he quietly packs his things up, after screaming and cussing about how he's never bowling again, shakes everyone's hands, apologizes, and says they'll never see him inside a bowling alley again, and walks out.  This team was in 2nd place in the league, and we swept them, mostly because of him, but also partly because most of their team doesn't practice and really don't concentrate, because in bowling today, you really don't have to any more unless you find yourself in one of these situations.  A decade ago, we would have had a tight, strategic match, instead of the blowout it ended up being. 

I was going to finish up with a few deeper points, but I really don't want to name drop, and I'll just leave it at saying that there were a couple nationally and professionally successful guys bowling last night with us on that guys team, and they just bowl for fun now, but they don't practice, though they can still turn it back on if they decide to, they're too good and experienced to forget it all.  Just hard to watch the sport falling apart one guy at a time.

In your prior life here and now, you're posts just ooze an air of superiority coupled with a condescending attitude to bowling that, quite frankly, is hard to stomach.  Are you a pro bowler?  No?  Than where is it written that you get to decide how much one needs to practice to be proficient?  What is your lifestyle that permits you to bowl all this practice to be so good and God's answer to bowling?

Anybody who has bowled for a long time or participated in any sport for a long time will retain 85% of their skill at said game, practice or not.  A month of solid practice will get them honed in and at 95%.  For a lot of non-pros, that's enough.  But then we get a guy like you.  You hold yourself up on a pedestal for all of us mere mortals to behold.  You seem to think you're doing everybody a favor by lowering yourself to bowling in a mere house shot league.  You begrudge a 17 year old a 300 game and an 800 series because 1. you don't think his game deserves it and 2. like with all young people he let it go to his head.  Got news for you, he bowled them.  Get over it.  Will he come back down to earth and realize his game still has work to do on it.  Yes.  Get over that also. Who the hell are you to judge?  I have a 69 Camaro that I have rebuilt totally.  I can tear a 350 Chevy apart and put it back together blindfolded.  So?  Does that mean I am going to turn my nose up at some guy at a car show who bolted some chrome to his engine and thinks he's badass?  No, because I know better.  My ego doesn't require me to come on to a website, crow about how good I am, how bad everybody else is, and then claim I know what is wrong with something when there is no definitive proof it is broken.   

Tell you what?  Post a video of yourself bowling in that forum on this site.  Let's see your award winning game.  Feel free to post your USBC ID # so we can all look up your achievements.  Until you do that, I'll dismiss you as the typical "tourney hack" who thinks he's something special on the lanes because he says so.       

Quote from: Gizmo823 on March 08, 2013, 08:56:47 AM

This could be paired with my letter to USBC regarding the type of bowler it's creating, and something I may have overlooked, the effect house shots have on CHANGING bowlers.  Last night we bowled some good friends, guys I've gone to Nationals with for the better part of the last decade.  A decade ago, people used to practice, people used to bowl 3 or 4 leagues a week.  Now, it doesn't take any practice to shoot 700, it's just looked at as something to avoid wasting time on.  One of my friends on the other team is 60ish, been bowling since the plastic and rubber era, before telescorers and lane machines, actually used to be a pinsetter in his younger days I believe.  Well, we are all higher level bowlers, and we can destroy a shot rather quickly just by ourselves, let alone having both our teams on the same pair, but as it would go, the shot actually held up better last night than it normally does when we bowl each other. 

Anyway, the guy in question has had several 300s and 800s, and despite some of those coming in this high scoring era, he's a guy that has bowled well, has known HOW to bowl, has known how to adjust, has had a solid mental game.  Well he had a rough game his first one, had all 3 in the 10th for 170.  Gets into the second game, clearly confused, pitches one out to 5, it doesn't come back, starts getting tight and completely yanks one, never gets right of 20, picks off the 3 on the left.  After that, he starts drinking faster (he usually has a 2 drink start before he gets there).  By frame 5 of the second game, he's completely lost and just gives up.  Next frame he gets up, starts just flipping the ball out there and turning around.  Frame after that, he trips and takes a couple steps out onto the lane, naturally tracking all the oil on his shoes back through the middle of the approach.  Takes a ball off the rack, brings it back to his bag, opens the bag, raises the ball as high above his head as he can, and slams it into his bag, after which he throws things at his back and kicks his bag.  This is all after knocking a trash can over for the first time of the night on his way back to his bag.  He finishes that game with a 115 to have 285 going in. 

Next game he actually starts with 3 consecutive marks, following which he again falls apart.  The trash can would get knocked over twice more, once emptying completely and needing a floor mat to cover the ice and water spillage right in the middle of one pathway from the seating area to the approaches, he would rev the ball up and throw it super slow, or dump it straight into the gutter, and at the end of the game he even would walk to the 2nd row of dots on the approach, put the ball down, and kick it at the pins.  So after having 55 or 56 in the 3rd frame, he finishes with a 112 for a 397 series. 

After this, he quietly packs his things up, after screaming and cussing about how he's never bowling again, shakes everyone's hands, apologizes, and says they'll never see him inside a bowling alley again, and walks out.  This team was in 2nd place in the league, and we swept them, mostly because of him, but also partly because most of their team doesn't practice and really don't concentrate, because in bowling today, you really don't have to any more unless you find yourself in one of these situations.  A decade ago, we would have had a tight, strategic match, instead of the blowout it ended up being. 

I was going to finish up with a few deeper points, but I really don't want to name drop, and I'll just leave it at saying that there were a couple nationally and professionally successful guys bowling last night with us on that guys team, and they just bowl for fun now, but they don't practice, though they can still turn it back on if they decide to, they're too good and experienced to forget it all.  Just hard to watch the sport falling apart one guy at a time.

In your prior life here and now, you're posts just ooze an air of superiority coupled with a condescending attitude to bowling that, quite frankly, is hard to stomach.  Are you a pro bowler?  No?  Than where is it written that you get to decide how much one needs to practice to be proficient?  What is your lifestyle that permits you to bowl all this practice to be so good and God's answer to bowling?

Anybody who has bowled for a long time or participated in any sport for a long time will retain 85% of their skill at said game, practice or not.  A month of solid practice will get them honed in and at 95%.  For a lot of non-pros, that's enough.  But then we get a guy like you.  You hold yourself up on a pedestal for all of us mere mortals to behold.  You seem to think you're doing everybody a favor by lowering yourself to bowling in a mere house shot league.  You begrudge a 17 year old a 300 game and an 800 series because 1. you don't think his game deserves it and 2. like with all young people he let it go to his head.  Got news for you, he bowled them.  Get over it.  Will he come back down to earth and realize his game still has work to do on it.  Yes.  Get over that also. Who the hell are you to judge?  I have a 69 Camaro that I have rebuilt totally.  I can tear a 350 Chevy apart and put it back together blindfolded.  So?  Does that mean I am going to turn my nose up at some guy at a car show who bolted some chrome to his engine and thinks he's badass?  No, because I know better.  My ego doesn't require me to come on to a website, crow about how good I am, how bad everybody else is, and then claim I know what is wrong with something when there is no definitive proof it is broken.   

Tell you what?  Post a video of yourself bowling in that forum on this site.  Let's see your award winning game.  Feel free to post your USBC ID # so we can all look up your achievements.  Until you do that, I'll dismiss you as the typical "tourney hack" who thinks he's something special on the lanes because he says so.       

So where did I say I was good?  I said I NEVER practice, this is solely about attitude and integrity, you don't have to be good to have a positive attitude and keep the challenge in the game.  I believe I look at things the right way, I have the right attitude about it, and I put a lot of time and effort into learning and paying attention.  Form also has nothing to do with skill.  Some of the ugliest, most traditionally wrong forms have produced hall of fame careers.  I also have a problem with putting so much effort into doing something correctly that when someone who has no clue who also has to potential to affect my business in the pro shop gets to running their mouth, yeah, that's a problem.  If I want competition, I can go to tournaments, I can put the money in, I can put the practice in, but when people affect my bottom line, that's where I start to get huffy.  If you are that good with cars, cool.  If there are other "hacks" that don't have the skills you do and you're ok with that, cool, but if somebody comes to that car show and starts sabotaging you and your skills, you might have a different opinion. 

I don't get where you get the air of superiority, but I put a lot of work and effort into stuff behind the scenes, I have a lot of industry experience, and have seen firsthand the problems things have caused, so my actual bowling has nothing to do with it, my heavy involvement with it does.  But I don't want to be perceived as someone who talks big and then when pressed clams up, so my USBC member number is 5900-1840.  I bowl ambidextrously, and some of the averages listed have that reflected, some do not, but if you're objective about all the information listed, you should be able to tell which averages not designated lefthanded should be.  Feel free to look up my USBC Open performances too.  Some are decent, some are not, have gone every year since 2007.  None of my numbers are special, or especially impressive, but that's kind of my point.  With all these scores all over the place, there's no way to tell who is truly talented and who isn't.  If I'm really a 170 average bowler, I'd rather shoot 170s, my scores don't mean a thing because it's all inflated.  I'll even provide a link below.  Be nice if someone could be objective about something instead of assuming whatever negativity you have to create to get on here and bash everyone.  But of course, no one could ever perceive you having an air of superiority or an inflated ego, even though your only point on this site is to look around for someone to tell off. 

I have been HEAVILY involved in bowling for quite a long time now, and because it's been my job for a number of years, both part and full time, part of trying to increase business and serve the customer better is understanding the relevant parts of the industry and the customers themselves.  Criticizing others lack of proficiency doesn't automatically mean I'm championing my own.  Pointing out and addressing the problems in the industry, the way the trends are going, what is causing them, and how to fix them is part of my job.  I can see nowhere in my post where I lauded myself or put myself on a pedastal, can anyone else? 

And as far as the person himself, his tradition for years has been to drink a few before coming out.  He's retired, and generally a happy person, his problems have been directly linked to his performances, and it's not a result of his health, he's in great health and great shape.  This has happened to several younger bowlers in their prime, a buddy of mine with too many big scores to count quit last year at 35.  He got so used to standing left and pitching the ball right that when we would go out of town, he would be lost, and it frustrated him because he used to be a lot better out of town.  He told me it's no fun to come out and be disappointed unless he shot an honor score, so he quit.  What other information am I supposed to glean from that and how else am I supposed to say it that doesn't make me sound like an elitist?  Dr. Phil writes books based all the information he's gathered and what he knows, the point of which is to teach other people, not try to show how smart he is and make it about him. 

So how am I supposed to share all the information I've gained, gathered, and learned without sounding, in your opinion, "superior and condescending?" 

You posted the link.  I'm not going to look at it.  You already prefaced it with various reasons one could walk away less than impressed.   What you need to do is re-read your posts, maybe you'll see what is wrong with them.

Uh, oh.  I just did what you do in your posts.  I judged that they were wrong and told you that you need to adjust your thinking and methods.  Did you like that?  Did it strike you the right way?  If you didn't like it and it struck the way, congratulations are in order.  Now you know how your posts can be and usually percieved.

You posted the link.  I'm not going to look at it.  You already prefaced it with various reasons one could walk away less than impressed.   What you need to do is re-read your posts, maybe you'll see what is wrong with them.

Uh, oh.  I just did what you do in your posts.  I judged that they were wrong and told you that you need to adjust your thinking and methods.  Did you like that?  Did it strike you the right way?  If you didn't like it and it struck the way, congratulations are in order.  Now you know how your posts can be and usually percieved.

So now instead of looking at the information I posted that you asked for, you're going to try to trick me into figjamming so you can get back on here and blast me for that?  And if you're convinced there's not a lot there, go look and blast me for that too.  You asked for the information, I provided it, case closed, look or don't look, I don't care, because as I said before, my personal scores have nothing to do with the angle I'm coming from.  Whatever scores I have or don't have, they're inflated.  Whether you average 150 or 250, on a house shot, the numbers are too high across the board.  We have put in the work, and the evidence points to the inflation in scores being a major cause of the problems the sport is suffering.  Maybe not the only one, but a significant factor.  You said you can tear down a car and rebuild it, and I believe it, but I don't need to ask you to list all your Nascar victories as proof you know what you're talking about.  You can make sense and offer good points, but every single post you make, you're pushing your own agenda, putting someone else down, and you're not even polite about it.  You flat call people idiots and insult them, no one can possibly be any more arrogant or condescending than you.  I've put in the work, and yes I'm trying to push the matter because I think it's important.  I don't want bowling to end up where it seems to be going, and if no one is going to talk about it, if no one is going to do anything about it, then nothing will happen.  I'm giving examples and trying to spur some good conversation, and we've had some good conversation.  If people make good points, then great, but where would anything be if somebody didn't push and fight for it?  You're basically calling anyone that pushes for something arrogant and condescending.  If someone got on here and posted something about cars that you thought was wrong, you'd jump down their throat and out their ass, but that would be ok . .

This post is nothing new. I've witnessed these things in league and I've also done these things myself as well.I used garbage cans to dispose of a few balls, only to get them out a few minutes later when i came to my senses. I find it interesting that you'd said, he likes to "warm-up" with a couple of drinks before he gets on the lanes. Alcohol has been my crutch especially on a particular BAD night. I once "tossed" a 97 game and on a roll-off night to boot, and the kicker is we only lost the game by 11 pins!!! We wound up losing series by 32 pins and this team was giving us almost 200 pins a game.Talk about low points in my bowling life... Im sure if this individual is anything like me or any other league bowler, he has got to understand, as I' ve learned; you are not as good as your average in league would indicate. Feel fortunate if your teammates dont kick you off the team.It's one thing to be frustrated, it's another to quit on your teammates. Do I blame the USBC? Do I blame "house" shots? Do I blame myself for being a self-centered, childish tool?   No,No and Yes!!!!

Can't disagree with that . . I think that the USBC and house shots are contributing to people never realizing this, they shoot 300 a couple times and that justifies them in blaming the lanes or carrydown or the ball instead of themselves, but at the end of the day, you're right, people are people, and responsible for their own actions no matter what the reason.