BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: suhoney24 on October 06, 2013, 01:05:03 AM
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so i showed up to a local tournament today to bowl and was promptly dq'ed because i don't use my thumb and have a balance hole...there can't be 2 unused holes drilled in your ball...and now i guess this lady is going to contact our regional manager (i bowl with him on tuesday nights and he has never said a word to me about it) to get my achievements taken because i bowled them this way...umm this might just be the stupidest thing i have ever heard...im sorry but there is no way you can tell me this makes sense... ???
since it will probably be asked i use a balance hole because i only weigh about 145 and since you can only go down to 14 pounds before the core changes with most balls i always get one drilled to spare me a tiny bit more weight...
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http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3074 (http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3074)
Not sure about the rules but there's a pic of Osku Palermaa's balls on this page and no thumb hole there...
Also found this , scroll down and you'll see that Jason Belmonte has an offset thumbhole in his ball and a balance hole...
http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3070 (http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3070)
One quick note – as you may or may not have noticed in the past, Belmo more often than not uses an offset thumbhole placement in a large majority of his balls. This is more of a safety measure more than anything. Due to his ability to change his axis tilt from 90 degrees like Pete Weber, to straight up the back at about 20 degrees; his high rev rate causes some cores to spin up faster than others. Therefore it’s safer for him to use the one inch offset and then not have to worry on which release he wants to use. The offset gives him more versatility.
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that is saying safety wise...i did find this so i guess it's true? what a stupid silly rule...
Question
hey russ hopefully you can settle a debate as there is no info on pba webpage..i throw a hook with no thumb in hole just two fingers. is that legal under all bowling rules. leagues? and pro tour? thanks
Answer
There was a guy Mike Miller on the PBA that won several titles in the early 90's.Chuck Lande in the regional PBA also bowled without a thumb.Here in south Texas, many bowl without a thumb. It is legal to bowl without putting your thumb in as long as you don't have a hole for your thumb & an extra hole like an axis hole.If no thumb hole, you can have 1 extra hole like the axis hole.
IT IS LEGAL IN ALL PHASES OF BOWLING AS LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THE ONLY 1 EXTRA HOLE RULE. ALSO, THROWING THE BALL LIKE THAT SHORTENS YOUR BOWLING CAREER BY PUTTING WAY TOO MUCH STRESS ON YOUR ARM.
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http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3074 (http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3074)
Not sure about the rules but there's a pic of Osku Palermaa's balls on this page and no thumb hole there...
Also found this , scroll down and you'll see that Jason Belmonte has an offset thumbhole in his ball and a balance hole...
http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3070 (http://www.stormbowling.com/news/2010/03/3070)
One quick note – as you may or may not have noticed in the past, Belmo more often than not uses an offset thumbhole placement in a large majority of his balls. This is more of a safety measure more than anything. Due to his ability to change his axis tilt from 90 degrees like Pete Weber, to straight up the back at about 20 degrees; his high rev rate causes some cores to spin up faster than others. Therefore it’s safer for him to use the one inch offset and then not have to worry on which release he wants to use. The offset gives him more versatility.
PBA rules don't always mirror those found at the USBC level... Tournament rules can also trump USBC rules in some areas...
For the USBC I thought as long as you can show that you can use the thumb hole to grip the ball you could have a balance hole as well. What is NOT allowed is deliver a ball like that without some portion of your hand covering the unused thumb hole...
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf)
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#1 this lady is an idiot and full of herself if she thinks she is going to be able to take away any of your achievements. She has no idea what bowling ball you used to shoot any honor scores. Who's to say that whatever ball you used at the time didn't have any balance holes.
#2 You can use a no thumb release with a thumb hole and balance hole if you can show that at least part of your thumb goes into the ball. Meaning that you need a thumb hole large enough that at least the tip of your thumb goes into it. Now that doesn't mean you must use it as a thumb hole, you just have to demonstrate that part of your thumb can enter it.
#3 In regards to number #2, you also have to have some part of your hand covering the un-used thumb hole. This would be considered as thumb being used as long as the hole is covered up. Technically the entire hole must be covered but there is some leeway on this and if you cover up a portion of the hole it's considered ok.
#4 what this all means if you do 2 and 3 you are allowed to have a extra hole in your ball for static weights. Once you demonstrate usage of the thumb hole all other rules regarding extra holes will be in effect.
Laugh at her, while everyone else laughs at her. If you have any other issues just keep going higher up the association ladder until you have to get the rules department of the USBC involved.
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Here is the exact text from the equipment specifications. You could probably fill a book with all of the misgivings and pure ignorance people have about the rules:
Holes or indentations for gripping purposes shall not exceed five and shall be limited to one for each finger and one for the thumb, all for the same hand. The player is not required to use all the holes in any specific delivery, but they must be able to demonstrate, with the same hand, that each hole can be used simultaneously for gripping purposes. Any hole that cannot be reasonably shown to be used with a single hand would be classified as a balance hole.
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#1 this lady is an idiot and full of herself if she thinks she is going to be able to take away any of your achievements. She has no idea what bowling ball you used to shoot any honor scores. Who's to say that whatever ball you used at the time didn't have any balance holes.
#2 You can use a no thumb release with a thumb hole and balance hole if you can show that at least part of your thumb goes into the ball. Meaning that you need a thumb hole large enough that at least the tip of your thumb goes into it. Now that doesn't mean you must use it as a thumb hole, you just have to demonstrate that part of your thumb can enter it.
#3 In regards to number #2, you also have to have some part of your hand covering the un-used thumb hole. This would be considered as thumb being used as long as the hole is covered up. Technically the entire hole must be covered but there is some leeway on this and if you cover up a portion of the hole it's considered ok.
#4 what this all means if you do 2 and 3 you are allowed to have a extra hole in your ball for static weights. Once you demonstrate usage of the thumb hole all other rules regarding extra holes will be in effect.
Laugh at her, while everyone else laughs at her. If you have any other issues just keep going higher up the association ladder until you have to get the rules department of the USBC involved.
thanks for the tips and encouragement...i always drill my thumb hole almost right below my finger holes so the palm of my hand covers it...i just took her serious because in the 80's early 90's she was on tv with the pba and figured she knew her stuff but i had a college bowling coach drill a few of my balls (knowing i don't use my thumb) and he never said anything about it...ant my old center the guy who did the balls followed the pba senior tour and never said a word about it...
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Sounds to me like she just has a vendetta against someone not using the "correct" form/technique
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I'd probably name drop her publicly.
If she's:
A) Got a personal vendetta (which it sounds like)
B) Doesn't know the rules according to the book (according to the rules you should NOT have been DQ'd) and now you suffer.
C) Well, simply b/c she's an idiot.
If she's going to be an uneducated jackass, she should be publicly shown as one........b/c............"thats what she is". Not unfair, only accurate....
So, who is she?
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Easy, go to your local superstore, Target, Walmart, etc. Buy 3 boxes of tampons. Next time you see her, give them to her.
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Don't forget the midol
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I guess I am just as confused... USBC allows up to 7 holes in a ball to be drilled. One for each finger, a balance hole and a vent hole. Now for those that use a balance hole and a vent hole... is that not the same concept of not using two holes in a ball?!? I know this is stretching the idea of two non used holes but still....
Personally these bowling balls are so advanced anyways that I feel we should void out the Static weights and let bowlers bowl with whatever they feel is going to work. Still need to make good shots with whatever your using and however you are throwing the ball. Just my 2 cents
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I guess I am just as confused... USBC allows up to 7 holes in a ball to be drilled. One for each finger, a balance hole and a vent hole. Now for those that use a balance hole and a vent hole... is that not the same concept of not using two holes in a ball?!? I know this is stretching the idea of two non used holes but still....
Personally these bowling balls are so advanced anyways that I feel we should void out the Static weights and let bowlers bowl with whatever they feel is going to work. Still need to make good shots with whatever your using and however you are throwing the ball. Just my 2 cents
The USBC allows 12 holes, 5 holes for gripping, 5 vent holes, a balance hole and a mill hole.
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Question: What is a mill hole? Where would that be placed?
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I guess I am just as confused... USBC allows up to 7 holes in a ball to be drilled. One for each finger, a balance hole and a vent hole. Now for those that use a balance hole and a vent hole... is that not the same concept of not using two holes in a ball?!? I know this is stretching the idea of two non used holes but still....
Personally these bowling balls are so advanced anyways that I feel we should void out the Static weights and let bowlers bowl with whatever they feel is going to work. Still need to make good shots with whatever your using and however you are throwing the ball. Just my 2 cents
The USBC allows 12 holes, 5 holes for gripping, 5 vent holes, a balance hole and a mill hole.
So with that being said, is that not along the same principles of not using holes in the bowling ball? Like I said, it may be stretching the idea some.
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To clarify, when you say that your thumb hole is usually drilled right below your fingers, do you mean in line with the your fingers, or do you literally mean right underneath, meaning that there really isn't a span of any sort? I ask because that will determine whether or not your ball is legal.
As others have said, as long as you show that you can reasonably use the drilled thumb hole to grip the ball, you are good. If it's drilled at a reasonable span length beneath the finger holes, you obviously would be able to put your thumb in it and attempt to throw a shot if you wanted to. If it's directly underneath the finger holes, you wouldn't be able to do so, and, as she stated, the ball would be illegal.
If it were drilled illegally, I can see the reasoning for the DQ; however, I don't really understand going so far as to say she's going to try to have your achievements taken off the books. That part sounds a bit strange to me. The whole reason for these rules is to try to keep up with keeping the playing field fair now that we've got a lot of no-thumbers and two-handers in the mix. As some of you may have remembered, I bowled two-handed as part of a USBC research study a few years back. Personally, I think they should either make people designate one-handed or two-handed, thumb in or no thumb the way they designate RH or LH, or they should just let you throw the ball any damned way you can as long as the ball is drilled legally. I've always thought that if I'm good enough to switch hands, why shouldn't I have an advantage?
But back to the point, I don't see any possible way she can have your achievements taken away. As for the tournament DQ, if you can prove that your can reasonably use that drilled thumb hole as a gripping hole, you got screwed over on that too. Sorry to hear it.
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OP, if it isn't too much of a hassle, could you mention WHERE this tournament took place? Doesn't have to be the alley, just the city. If this lady was on the LPBT/PWBA in the 80s/90s, I would be very shocked that she would do something like this. Being at the pinnacle of the bowling world puts a lot of her credibility on the line, especially for wanting to take away previous achievements she obviously knows nothing about.
I'm guessing that we could probably figure out who said this without mentioning name. With ladies on that tour, location would say a lot about who it was and where this took place.
BL.
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Question: What is a mill hole? Where would that be placed?
A mill hole aka a mill mark is a hole they use for inspection purposes, you seen them mostly on Balls used by bowlers in the Pba. But you hardly ever saw them in league, unless someone was in the pba or got the ball from someone in it.I haven't seen one around here in a long time.
They usually placed it right above the fingerholes.
"4. One mill hole for inspection purposes not to exceed 5/8 inch in diameter and 1/8 inch in depth"
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I thought the mill hole came about because of the PBA players that were soaking the plastic balls back in the 70's with MEK or other solvents. They used the mill hole to test the hardness below the surface of the ball with a durometer.
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OP, if it isn't too much of a hassle, could you mention WHERE this tournament took place?
dubois, pa.....
...just look up the pro shop owner
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I thought the mill hole came about because of the PBA players that were soaking the plastic balls back in the 70's with MEK or other solvents. They used the mill hole to test the hardness below the surface of the ball with a durometer.
It might have, testing for hardness is the only thing I ever heard it was used for.
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Let me add my $.02,
A friend of mine, when I was in college, tried to bowl no thumb one summer. He went to the high roller that year, and while he could hit his mark like no one else, being more of a stroker/tweener, he was beaten by guys who had big revs but couldn't hit the same mark to save their lives. So he wanted to try a no thumb release to increase his rpms. He had this exact issue. He drilled a Purple Rhino Pro (dates me a little, lol) and had two finger holes and a balance hole drilled, but no thumb hole because of this exact rule.
Now the USBC does allow 12 holes, but it also dictates the size/depth of the holes. So the vent holes are very very small diameters, the mill hole (as seen in another post) has specific dimesions as well. A thumb hole that isn't covered at least partially while not being used, is the same as a balance hole and there can only be one of them. So hence the ball is illegal.
I know there are multiple ways around this. The USBC will allow it if you cover the hole with your hand/thumb completely or even partially. If you haven't changed the orientation of your finger holes/grips, and you don't have an offset thumb hole (offset to the right), this shouldn't be an issue as you would be satisifying this rule with your normal grip wouldn't you? If not, then an easy fix is just plug the thumb on the ball. This way it can be redrilled if you ever go back to using your thumb and won't be an issue no thumb. It looks like, by Gene's post, the USBC is trying to accomodate the newer styles by working around this rule, which has been in place for many many years.
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The PBA used to have the rule that you had to cover any unused gripping hole with your hand. It looks like they did away with it. Probably too hard to enforce.
PBA rule-11.5.4 No Thumb and Two Hand Delivery. The bowler is not required to use the thumb hole in any specific delivery, but must be able to demonstrate, with the same hand, that each hole can be used simultaneously for gripping purposes. Any hole that cannot be reasonably shown to be used with a single hand shall be classified as a balance hole. The ball must be within weight specification as the ball rests in the bowler’s hand but all holes do not need to be used for gripping purposes during a delivery.
USBC rule- Holes or indentations for gripping purposes shall not exceed five and shall be limited to one for each finger and one for the thumb, all for the same hand. The player is not required to use all the holes in any specific delivery, but they must be able to demonstrate, with the same hand, that each hole can be used simultaneously for gripping purposes. Any hole that cannot be reasonably shown to be used with a single hand would be classified as a balance hole.
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A thumb hole that isn't covered at least partially while not being used, is the same as a balance hole and there can only be one of them. So hence the ball is illegal.
Just wondering, What specific USBC rule actually says the hole has to be covered?
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A thumb hole that isn't covered at least partially while not being used, is the same as a balance hole and there can only be one of them. So hence the ball is illegal.
Just wondering, What specific USBC rule actually says the hole has to be covered?
It doesn't. The thumbhole only has to be able to be used by the same hand if requested. It doesn't have to be covered when not in use.
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A thumb hole that isn't covered at least partially while not being used, is the same as a balance hole and there can only be one of them. So hence the ball is illegal.
Just wondering, What specific USBC rule actually says the hole has to be covered?
It doesn't. The thumbhole only has to be able to be used by the same hand if requested. It doesn't have to be covered when not in use.
Yes it does... at least in the regard that a bowler not using their thumb can't flip the ball 180° and effectively change the layout... IF there is a thumb hole and balance hole.
Reference page 9 of the following - http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf)
We've been focusing on whether or not the hole has to be covered, but this might end up being an illegal ball due to static weights since the grip center changes if a bowler flips a ball 180° as seen in figure 10 and 12.
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Yes it does... at least in the regard that a bowler not using their thumb can't flip the ball 180° and effectively change the layout... IF there is a thumb hole and balance hole.
Reference page 9 of the following - http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/2012-equip-and-specs-manual.pdf)
We've been focusing on whether or not the hole has to be covered, but this might end up being an illegal ball due to static weights since the grip center changes if a bowler flips a ball 180° as seen in figure 10 and 12.
I will agree it matters when determining the grip center for static purposes. But no where does it state the hole has to be "covered" when being delivered for it to be legal.
Holes
The following limitations shall govern the drilling of holes in the ball:
1. Holes or indentations for gripping purposes shall not exceed five and shall be limited to one for each finger and one for the thumb, all for the same hand. The player is not required to use all the holes in any specific delivery, but they must be able to demonstrate, with the same hand, that each hole can be used simultaneously for gripping purposes. Any hole that cannot be reasonably shown to be used with a single hand would be classified as a balance hole.
2. One hole for balance purposes not to exceed 1¼ inches in diameter. This hole may not exceed 1¼ inches at any point through the depth of the hole.
3. No more than one vent hole to each finger and/or thumb hole not to exceed ¼ inch in diameter. USBC considers a vent hole to be any non-gripping hole that intersects with a gripping hole at any depth. Any hole intended for use as a balance hole that intersects with a gripping hole will instantly be considered a vent hole. This hole may not exceed ¼ inch at any point throughout the depth of the hole.
4. One mill hole for inspection purposes not to exceed 5/8 inch in diameter and 1/8 inch in depth.
As long as you can grip the ball with all holes the bowler states are for "gripping" and make a delivery using those holes, then they are considered gripping holes. Any additional hole would be considered a balance hole (except for vent holes and mill hole). Plain and simple.