Post by: mumzie on September 13, 2008, 06:30:26 AM
I used to have incredible carry. Yes, some people would call it stupid lucky carry - but it scored well. REALLY well. Tournament conditions, league conditions,didn't matter.
Now, since I changed release and ball roll, I don't have carry. Period. To give you an example - last year I won a no-tap pro am at one of the local regionals. I got 33 "strikes" - 18 of them no tap - all but one of those a corner pin!!!
I was talking with a teammate that I haven't bowled with in several years - and phrased it as - the pocket used to be THIS BIG, now it's only this big.
Does this make sense? Can any one help me now??? I need to make the pocket bigger again!
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Post by: JoshY on September 13, 2008, 02:42:47 PM
I don't know how you changed your release but maybe this might help.
Post by: J_Mac on September 13, 2008, 02:49:33 PM
Why did you change your game?
Did this change happen before you dropped to 14# equipment?
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
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Post by: slashrr69 on September 13, 2008, 02:52:36 PM
Post by: mumzie on September 13, 2008, 03:09:55 PM
Let me give you a little background, first. 4 years ago I was in the top 3 women in the state. Bowling was the most important thing to me, other than my family. I used to practice once or twice a week with a good friend, who is a great power player. He would work with me to get more power, and I would work with him to be more accurate. He and I (and a couple of coaches) agreed that if I could get my rev rate up, I could be the TOP woman in the state, if not the whole northwest... It turns out, it was the wrong choice.
Now I'd be embarrassed to bowl in a scratch tournament.
About 4 years ago I was constantly told to put more on the ball - that my rev rate was too low. That's why I changed everything. PAP went from 4 1/8 and 1" down to 5 3/8 and 1 1/4 up.
Now I'm told I have too many revs for my ball speed. Rev rate has gone up about 20%.
3 years ago I had fair to ok ball speed.
Now it's slow to ok.
3 years ago I didn't care who's equipment I used - I used whatever worked, but preferred Brunswick.
Now I can't use Brunswick - their stuff rolls way too early. In this case, I don't know if it's the equipment, my game, or both.
3 years ago I had a pain free right shoulder.
Now I have a shoulder that can sometimes get really sore after bowling.
3 years ago I was using a reverse pitch in my thumbhole.
Then I went to 5/16 forward.
I just changed to 3/16 forward, and I like the change.
3 years ago I used 15 pound equipment.
2 years ago I dropped to 14 (see shoulder issue, above)
3 years ago I worked for someone else. I was able to practice a lot.
Now I own my own business, and don't have time to practice.
4 years ago I was 48. Now I'm 52. It sounds funny, but that has seemed to make a MAJOR difference in how I feel...
It's really frustrating to know I can still hit my target - I can still be accurate within a board or so - not spraying the lane - and I just can't carry!!! I move up, I move back. I move left, I move right. I change hand positions. I change speed. I try different parts of the lane. My overall carry percentage on pocket hits is below 50%. It's driving me NUTS!!! Ring 10. Weak 10. Stone 7. Solid 8. Sometimes even a 9 pin. GRRRRRRR.....
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Post by: RevZiLLa on September 13, 2008, 03:48:31 PM
1 1/4 up is a whole lot of tilt...leaving a lot of 10 pins?
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RevZ=======================
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Post by: slashrr69 on September 13, 2008, 04:02:32 PM
Post by: J_Mac on September 13, 2008, 04:10:26 PM
I'll just say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Post by: on September 13, 2008, 04:21:02 PM
When the pocket seems to shrink for me it's usually because I'm not managing lane friction properly. For me the solution is a tiny move outside to where I don't feel like I need to make the ball hook, but just LET IT HOOK.
As you probably know when you hit friction earlier, too many revs can be a problem, so just relax and feed the ball down the lane.
Everything you've done to change your game isn't wasted effort. It's another arrow in your quiver for more demanding conditions. For house shots the rule really should be "less is more" so don't worry about the revs as much as managing friction and repeating shots.
Friction too soon and the ball hits like a marshmallow, friction too late and it's easy to lose the pocket entirely, but at least lose the proper entry angle to carry corners.
If I can give any specific help regarding a Brunswick ball (or any others for that matter) send me a PM and I will do my best to help. I hope I am understanding the problem correctly. Good luck.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
Post by: dicnic on September 13, 2008, 04:37:35 PM
Good luck on figuring out what has happened!
By the way, during the past month I have left more pocket 7 - 10s than I have my entire life, (and I have been bowling for a long, long time. Sounds like somewhat the same problem and no, I have not figured out what I am doing incorrectly.
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Never take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
Post by: Moon57 on September 13, 2008, 06:19:14 PM
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Moon
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So many questions, so little time but I'm having fun.
Post by: APheLion on September 13, 2008, 11:12:27 PM
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When a house bowler misses the mark, misses the break point and strike, for many ppl its called a wallshot. When a pro does that its call adjustment
When a house bowler gets his finger stuck in the ball and fall on the lanes, for many ppl its called lame bowler. When a pro does that its called the Machuga flop! ha i like this one.
Post by: tdub36tjt on September 14, 2008, 12:43:05 AM
quote:
The easiest solution is to try to increase your ball speed if possible. You don't want to do it by muscling the ball, but rather using your legs effectively to balance a higher backswing. Also, I wonder if your changed release is getting more revs by hitting up too much on the ball. Your loss in ball speed suggest that this is the case. When I went to the so called more is less release, I actually increased my rev rate consderably, without sacrificing ball speed. You may need to make yet another change in your release, rather than go back to your old release
Post by: KingofKings696 on September 14, 2008, 02:50:20 AM
Quote
Wouldn't switching to a weaker bowling ball also help if this is the case?? She should be able to go to something like a Jazz, Neptune, or Tropical and take a step right and play a lot straighter. Or I would say she probably needs more axis tilt....but that would probably be a harder fix.
I am sorry but what you say would not help her problem over all she is complaining of shoulder pain and a weaker ball will not cure this the only way you are going to get shoulder pain is throwing incorrectly or possibly an improperly fit ball(grabbing and such) or too heavy of equipment. Lastly with todays lane conditions you dont really need that much revs throw down and in and you sould do wonderful. I mean just look at WRW there is a reason he has won so many titles remeber K.I.S.S.
Post by: dizzyfugu on September 14, 2008, 03:40:26 AM
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Post by: KingofKings696 on September 14, 2008, 04:19:38 AM
Post by: mumzie on September 14, 2008, 06:30:39 PM
Just so you all know - I don't know if I can GET a weaker ball...
Here's the current (and complete) arsenal - I don't have much any more...
Storm Domination (strongest in the bag - by far)
Tropical Storm (my game must be cover stock dominant, because this one is pretty strong in my hands)
Ebonite Clash - brand new ball - maybe 10 games - too strong on wood - pretty good (but corner leaves) on synthetic
Bruns. Rampage - lots of games - goes really long.
Roto Grip Saturn
Black Hammer Urethane
Columbia Blue Dot
Thats it. As you can see, I have weaker stuff. The stronger stuff is a total waste of money for me - the Domination has been out of the bag maybe 5 times in a year and a half.
The shoulder pain isn't just when I'm bowling. Seems that overuse of the arm using the computer is the cause of most of the damage. So - I'm gonna be in pain while bowling or not - so I'd rather bowl.
My coach has an old CATS video from several years ago with my "old" game. I'm going to meet with him tomorrow to see what we can do about bringing it back.
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Post by: J_Mac on September 14, 2008, 06:57:38 PM
The Blue/Yellow Clash is pretty strong as well, but if you have a Purple/Turquoise Clash it should be one of the weaker balls you have.
A sure sign that your equipment is finishing weak or has rolled out is where the ball is as it rolls through the back row of pins. Ideally it should be finishing between the 8/9 and not too far towards one or the other.
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Post by: 1MechEng on September 14, 2008, 07:35:14 PM
Do you still have any of your old equipment with the old drillings? If you do, how do they "feel" nowadays? I wonder if something as simple as a grip change/pitch change would make a big difference in your game?
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
Post by: John D Davis on September 14, 2008, 08:26:22 PM
Most every review you will read will be something good towards the ball. Not every Manufactory can have reviews like this. The two main things people like about a ball such as LM is Longevity and Pin Carry! Its just obvious if you take the time to read what the people say. Visionary is the same way. When people talk, they talk mainly about how good these "two" aspects are in these bowling balls.
The thing that makes LM balls stand out is most of their balls have really high RG's. I have some friends that know they shouldnt buy a LM because they will tend to shoot the ball through the breakpoint. This being said, with your slower ball speed this may be something that you really need to try. I would suggest you getting a Terminator drilled with the pin 5" or more from you Pin to Pap. This ball will probably rank up there in being as strong as the Domination but it may have a better carry%. You can find these balls right now at a very good price so it isnt like you will pay 270$ trying to get into one of these things.
I realize you may not like what I had to say and thats quiet ok. I just wated to help in any way. Looks like you are already a pretty advanced player so I dont think it would take anything to get that pain to go away from your shoulder. In the back of your mind you probably already know what to do that would help it and maybe dont want to try, I dont know. One thing tha may even help is to go a little more Forward with your thumb pitch. This way you can completely free up your armswing. I have tried many different pitches and have found 1/2" and 5/8" Forward is what most people need to be at to find a "ZERO" GRIP PRESSURE. Only the most advanced bowlers can accomplish this kind of pitch in a short time. I was at around 1/2" Reverse and now I am at 1/2" Forward. And since I wasnt as most as advanced as some people, it took me quiet a while to finally get comfortable with it. The good thing is that you are already going the right direction with your thumb you just maybe need to keep going until you cant. I would bet anything that if you have a relaxed span you cant swing the ball back with no grip pressure and not drop it... Sure you can half way do this and keep it on your hand, but I am talking about holding the ball like a new born baby. 98% of people that try this, will in fact drop their bowling ball backwards. Very Very Few people, can say in this world that they have zero grip pressure. At times I still feel I may have a little, but most of the time I dont.
My points in telling you this is because I recently switched to storm and my carry isnt near as good. I have only been throwing storm for 4-5 days now, so it may get better once I learn the roll of the balls a little better. Most people would say thats BS but its obvious in my game... Also, the reason I said so much about Forward pitch is because if you can get a zero grip pressure, your ball speed will automatically come up. 95% of the Bowling world doesnt have the proper ball fit, and if you feel your ball is perfect then disregard what I have had to say. If you have a free armswing then in most cases your revs will be balanced with your speed. People that find they are rev "dominate" are players that do some grabbing, jerking, or anything other than just being smooth and letting gravity do all the work. But anyways, sorry this was so long. Hope you liked what I had to say. John
Post by: mainzer on September 14, 2008, 11:31:51 PM
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MainzerPower
Edited on 9/14/2008 11:33 PM
Post by: another300 on September 15, 2008, 11:26:30 AM
quote:
Now I can't use Brunswick - their stuff rolls way too early. In this case, I don't know if it's the equipment, my game, or both.
3 years ago I had a pain free right shoulder.
Now I have a shoulder that can sometimes get really sore after bowling.
3 years ago I was using a reverse pitch in my thumbhole.
Then I went to 5/16 forward.
I just changed to 3/16 forward, and I like the change.
3 years ago I used 15 pound equipment.
2 years ago I dropped to 14 (see shoulder issue, above)
3 years ago I worked for someone else. I was able to practice a lot.
Now I own my own business, and don't have time to practice.
4 years ago I was 48. Now I'm 52. It sounds funny, but that has seemed to make a MAJOR difference in how I feel...
You pretty much answered your own question. You changed your game, entry angle is different, lighter ball, shoulder pain, less practice.
Changing ball manufactures is probably also contributing to it. I seem to bowl best and carry best using Columbia balls. I have tried different ball manufacturers, but for example. My best game with the Total NV has been 268. That is because I always seem to leave a corner pin, 8 pin, 7, 4 pin. I have to be very accurate with it and carry is not that great with this ball.
With my Resurgence I carry light hits, half pocket hits, high hits. In practice I have been able to string 12 for 300. Only the last 11 for 290 in league.
Oh and the shoulder pain is causing you issues too. When my slide knee is hurting or my right hamstring/lower back it tight. I throw the ball a little different, carry suffers.
Post by: JohnP on September 15, 2008, 11:34:07 AM
quote:
1 1/4 up is a whole lot of tilt...leaving a lot of 10 pins?
Axis tilt and its cause are misunderstood by many. The vertical component of the PAP location has absolutely nothing to do with tilt. Tilt is completely dependent on the diameter of the initial track ring, the smaller this diameter, the larger the axis tilt. The vertical component is dependent on the distances of the initial track ring from the grip centerline at the fingers and thumb. Mumzie -- sorry, I don't have anything to add to helping your problem, but I hate to see a false statement that many (including RevZiLLa, I'm sure) may believe. -- JohnP
Post by: JoeBowler on September 15, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
Bodies dictate what you can do and the conditions you learn on will drive you to a style that you can score best with.
Then we change trying to match someone elses image of what is right and proper.
If walter ray had done that me might not have 10 titles.
Post by: mumzie on September 15, 2008, 08:22:20 PM
I met with the coach today - and I think we made some progress.
Here's a few of his conclusions, after a lot of dialog:
1. Yes - ball speed is hurting me (or lack thereof) - it was probably ill advised to make the changes I did make several years ago, but ... Hindsight is truly 20/20.
2. He said that the release I walked in the door with is absolute textbook, strong, beautiful - IF I had 2 MPH more, OR more oil. Around here, things aren't the sahara, but they're not an oilfield, either. Keep said release as the "B" game, but work on the "new" release as the A game.
3. We worked on "weakening" the release a little bit - it's amazing how hard that is to do! We're probably 50% of where I need to be, but it's definitely rolling better (or at least with fewer corner pins). We're getting back together in about 10 days to see what other things we can tweak.
I don't know that we solved it, but we certainly did change it. I'll let everyone know after league tomorrow!
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Post by: mumzie on September 18, 2008, 12:26:02 PM
I used my "new" release Tuesday night in league.
I will say that the ball was definitely driving harder, and hitting the pocket much, much, much harder.
So the rollout theory is correct.
However, my night was full of ring tens, solid 8s, slammed 7s, and several 9 pins. My carry percentage wasn't 30% (again..., or still)
I'm much happier with the ball roll - so I guess we'll see what comes next.
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We Know What Bowlers Want
Home of the HAMBONE shirt!
Post by: janderson on September 18, 2008, 01:55:21 PM
quote:
My coach has an old CATS video from several years ago with my "old" game. I'm going to meet with him tomorrow to see what we can do about bringing it back.
What does your coach say is hurting your carry?
Entry angle is important, but means nothing if you're over-deflecting. For an extreme example to illustrate the point, hit the pins with the perfect entry angle with a four pound ball. What is your carry like? Bad!
Over-deflection off the head pin causes a right-hander to punch the 3-pin in the face causing the six-pin to wrap around the ten-pin on what is otherwise a good pocket hit. Over-deflection can be caused a number of different things but most often by a ball that is still skidding when it hits the pins or a ball that is rolled out.
The hardest thing to understand is that a ball that is still hooking is still skidding. A hooking ball is a ball trying to change direction from its current path of travel (hopefully, the perfect entry angle). Think of it as a car that is spinning its tires, burning rubber, but has the steering wheel turned. The car will tend to deflect off of anything it hits. Consider the same situation where the car tires are not in a turn. The car will try to drive through whatever it hits, without deflecting much to the left or right.
So there is a magic time between when a ball stops hooking/starts rolling and when the ball rolls out. Many bowlers have a hard time understanding the difference between "hook out" and "roll out" because the term "roll out" is too often used in place of "hook out". Think of the car example again. There is a difference between a car that is going straight and coasting and a car that is going straight and burning rubber (like a dragster at the beginning of a race). Coasting is the roll out. The dragster still has driving power to help minimize that deflection, but isn't changing direction (isn't hooking).
Mumzie - I worked with coaches Rolf Gauger and Ron Clifton on this. Rolf was instrumental on getting me to understand the concept and being able to visually see the difference (hook out vs. roll out). It isn't always easy - an empty pin deck is your friend. Ron has been instrumental on helping me get the necessary ball reaction which is a combination of the correct release, speed, and lane play.
The best example I can give to people that is readily available: Catch a re-run of Tommy Jones from the 2007 Masters. All he needed to do was hit the head pin. Discerning viewers will notice that his ball stopped hooking just before it made contact with the pins.
When you can get it right, pin carry is simply unbelievable and your pocket gets big again.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Edited on 9/18/2008 1:58 PM
Post by: another300 on September 18, 2008, 03:15:24 PM
How about a flat 10? Or when the 6 pin just lays in the gutter? what causes that?
Sorry to side track your thread mumzie.
Post by: janderson on September 26, 2008, 01:31:36 PM
Flat-10 leaves are caused by the 3 pin being hit in the face by the ball, throwing the 3-pin almost straight back. It catches just enough of the 6-pin on its way back to push it in front of the 10-pin and into the gutter.
Ringing-10 leaves are caused by the 3 pin being hit by the ball on its left side, but not enough to send the 6 into the ten. Think about a 3-10 leave and hitting the 3 pin on the left side so that it just misses the 10 pin on the left on its way into the pit. If the 6-pin were in there, as in a 3-6-10 leave, with the same hit, the 3-pin hits the 6-pin around the 10-pin.
Flat-10's are usually the result of a ball that is rolled out or over-deflects because of poor entry angle. Even more deflection than with ringing-10's. Anything causing more than normal deflection is a good candidate for leaving soft/flat 10's. Poor entry angle or roll out are simply two of the most common.
Ringing-10's will usually happen when we're closer to the right entry angle, but the ball either over deflects because it is skidding when it hits the head pin, or the ball hits the head pin and the 3-pin at the same time. (The ball should always hit the headpin first). Sometimes you'll hear people say they hit "behind" the head pin. Too much entry angle can cause this as well.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: headwest on September 26, 2008, 03:21:53 PM