Post by: charlest on February 09, 2012, 02:05:15 PM
Just saw Buddies post the new Ebonite Pursuits for $169.95, joining the ranks of Lane#1 balls as the most expensive balls on the internet (excepting for Bowlers Paradise's Elite line at $249 which I assume virtually no one in their right mind buys).
Pretty soon BTV's Quantum $300 balls from the late1990s are going to look cheap.
And all in the midst of a depression! Fascinating!!
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited by charlest on 2/9/2012 at 11:08 PM
Post by: northface28 on February 09, 2012, 10:41:51 PM
”Im a really good bowler, ask Ron”
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 09, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
I knew this was going to start to happen once they made the balls 159.99 as the bottom floor price. Every new release was going to be $5 to $10 more than the last one. Truthfully they can keep all of these balls at these prices, they will discontinue them faster than you can blink an eye and then you can buy them for $80.00. Nobody is fooled anymore when it comes to the performance of the bowling ball. The ball that is 6 months old is just as good as the one that came out today.
Shop the close out racks, and save money.
If I was in business, I couldn't even afford to bring these in at the distributor prices anymore for "stock". The distributor price on some of these balls is $130 to $140. I don't see how any of these helped the pro shop. I think it's costing more money instead.
For instance the new Global 900 Train is $140.00 to $145.00, tack on shipping and it's the same as internet price. I would tell everyone to go buy balls on the internet and bring them in. Saves me the haste of ordering, stocking and having to put out cash to cover the cost of the ball.
How can you make a profit on these things if you are putting almost $150 into them. High preformance around here is $199.99 to $209.99 drilled/inserts.
Some areas your just not going to get $250 for a bowling ball.
This floor price is now costing the customers even more money. I thought the idea was to level the playing field so the pro shop could make the sale over the internet shop, without sticking it to the customer.
The way I see it, the customer is getting gouged with insane prices, and the pro shop is starting to get gouged as well. The balls didn't become cheaper for the pro shop, they are going up as well!!
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 0:33 AM
Post by: billdozer on February 09, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
I think the joke is on the consumer...both should be called oxymoron, and the oxymoron-s. They put a recycling logo on the ball (which tells me the cover is not new, its recycled) yet they mention that its all new materials, aaaaaaand its the most expensive ball we have ever produced. The video is terrible as well..I understand everything has been done before...but I know just every other company is making some exciting stuff right now! I was one of the unlucky consumers that bought some of the garbage before the missions...like idk "the striking motion" perhaps LOL, and both of these balls look like they took a step backwards. I know I sound real negative, but I hope theyre both great equipment. Id almost rather see them keep the mission around to be honest, that line has much consumer confidence in it.
Don't throw strikes, throw BOLTS!
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 09, 2012, 11:38:31 PM
I don't know where people use these new "super" bowling balls. The proprietor doesn't put anymore oil out than he has been putting out for the last 3 years. The proprietor doesn't keep up on bowling ball technology. It's the same THS that hooks.
It's still only 60ft and 10 pins you got to knock down. It's still THS bowling.
Nobody bowls tournaments, to use the $250 bowling balls. Nobody bowls sport leagues to use them as well.
Who exactly uses all this new technology.
It's still a bowling ball, that rolls 60ft and knocks down pins. The ball only contacts the lane for a few seconds.
I should know, I am in charge of the up keep of a bowling center. I put out the max capacity of oil that I can now, without it being to difficult of a lane condition. There is no more oil that can be put in places where there is oil.
It's now out of hand.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 0:42 AM
Post by: billdozer on February 09, 2012, 11:45:41 PM
You are making some vaild points here....All of the manufacturers agreed on this minimum pricing strategy and it looks likes theyre getting more money per ball at the release date, and if they release more and more equipment the ball whores will buy more & more...its a great strategy to make money. Too bad it was "supposed" to help proshops..
Businesses are in business to make money, unfortunately for us bowlers/consumers its all about the $ and not about bowling.
Idk about you but im waiting for the $174.95 balls to come out...you know there will 3 of those, and you have to buy all three! the $cam, The $cam-$, and the Scam-$$ LOL.
Idk about you but im waiting for the $174.95 balls to come out...you know there will 3 of those, and you have to buy all three! the $cam, The $cam-$, and the Scam-$$ LOL.
Don't throw strikes, throw BOLTS!
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 09, 2012, 11:52:02 PM
I talked to almost all of the pro shops in my area, and every single one of them is struggling to sell bowling balls. It's a combination of the prices of equipment due to the economy and the lack of oil on the lanes. I know a few pro shops that no longer stock Ebonite brand balls because its just too many bowling balls anymore and people in my general area are just not buying.
Some of these companies are raising prices and their equipment doesn't sell well to begin with. That makes zero sense to me. As somebody who was once around the pro shop industry, I wouldn't stock much anymore. To get stuck with some of this inventory really hurts your shop.
To me the whole thing was to floor price and give the pro shop a break, so they could make more money. The pro shop isn't getting a break unless they are high volume.
The only way the pro shop makes money is if they put in a large order, and get free shipping and then pay it with prompt pay. There is alot of IFs involved there. Any ball today for me to order through a distributor is the same price in the end as Buddies Pro Shop.
I wouldn't stock a single high end.
The way I see it, only the manufacturer is making out here. Exactly the reason why they did this in the first place.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 0:58 AM
Post by: Balldoctor on February 10, 2012, 12:07:28 AM
Remember, ALL BOWLING IS LOCAL!
Post by: dizzyfugu on February 10, 2012, 12:46:13 AM
That's a good and probably true point: as anyone knows and experiences, ball "life cycles" are getting shorter and shorter. Remember the times when a high end ball like the Inferno stayed around for years, had its role in the manufacturer's arsenal and also somehow was a kind of flagship item. And that was just a couple of years ago.
Right now, things have gone IMHO much more generic, and equipment without any proper profile (except for "hooks more than ever", "we did years of research" and the like) is pumped out, at a ridiculous rate. Buy a ball and it is last generation - at least when you look at the marketing blah. Additionally, due to the ever faster life cycles, money HAS to be made much quicker, so it is no wonder that prices soar. But IMHO this money is, from a customer's point of view, not justified are results in any added value or premium which makes the xtra bucks worthwhile. The only thing WE can do is not to buy any new crap, esp. the high end stuff. Not only does the "last generation" suffice, with so many new generations coming you can even "have fun" with older stuff. I find the development alarming, from various perspectives. It's a bubble that will burst.
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section
Post by: Shaggy on February 10, 2012, 06:43:22 AM
The Elite Platinum is selling for $299 shipped. Buy two Elite Plantinum bowling balls and get a free microfiber towel 
You will not see me on the PBA Tour, but I love the game!!!
Edited by Shaggy on 2/10/2012 at 8:45 PM
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 10, 2012, 07:30:01 AM
Don't have a pro shop that is a business. My opinion is purely hypothetical if I was going to open up a business that had a pro shop in it. I'm a bowling center mechanic/lane man these days, thus I get to see the whole complex problem from alot of different sides.
Post by: ImBackInTheGame on February 10, 2012, 08:01:59 AM
Post by: Pinbuster on February 10, 2012, 08:21:45 AM
When a bowler throws a big score what is generally one of the first questions asked? What ball were you using?!
As long as bowlers continue with that mentality that is is the ball more than the bowler then ball prices will continue to go up and new models continuously introduced.
Since many maufacutures of bowling balls have gone bankrupt over the last few years (FAB/Hammer, Columbia, AMF, Track, plus many other small manfuctures I'm sure) I doubt profit margins are very high.
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 10, 2012, 08:53:36 AM
All of this gives me a BIG LAUGH ..
I hope you all remember I'm that CHEAP GUY ..
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 10, 2012, 08:56:19 AM
I was in favor of the floor pricing and it helping pro shops. Now it just seems like it's starting to steer off into a new direction. If the price floor stayed fixed for a while, that was fine. Now that it seems to be creeping higher and higher with every release. This to me is a bit alarming. If the floor price prices would stabilize for the pro shop, that would be helpful, but if the new releases are going to be more money even for the pro shop to get in, how does this help at all?
The consumer is paying all time record prices. The pro shop is paying all time record prices. The ball company is making all time record sales. I still do not see this influx of ball whores that everyone talks about, that keep the pro shop open and justify the price increases. I bowl in a few centers in some good leagues, and I don't see any ball whores. I see a lot of 2-3 year old equipment, with a mix of new every now and then.
Not many pro shops these days have $10,000 laying around for inventory and to get the price breaks.
I find it comical that the price war is the prices going up against each ball release, instead of the prices going down to entice customers to buy or try their product. A price war of increasing prices.....hmm.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 10:09 AM
Post by: charlest on February 10, 2012, 09:36:08 AM
I sense you're an optimistic and compassionate person, but do you really believe that the minimum price setting was meant to help the brick and mortar pro shop? You want to believe that and, you know what? So do I, but reality is a far different scenario.
Corporations, be they private or public, have ONE concern and one concern only: their bottom line. If it helps or hinders anyone along the way, that is just "coincidental damage" or coincidental help. It makes no difference to them, as far as I have been able to see.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited by charlest on 2/10/2012 at 10:37 AM
Post by: completebowler on February 10, 2012, 09:55:56 AM
The pricing does help shops. The frequency of releases does not. I am disappointed with EBI in that they said they were going to reign it in...especially on the high end stuff. But, since Oct 18....4 months...they have released 2 Taboos, Mission X, 811, Dark Encounter, and now these. The original Encounter was in September.
That said, smart shops are not paying $130-$140. Yes that's the range at wholesale, but every release usually comes with a promotional price that is much cheaper. Then we also have programs from all the major manufacturers that allow us to get inventory cheaper.
Most everything on my shelf is priced at MSRP. For top end that usually is $229.99...evrything included except removable thumb set-ups. From there, it is our philosophy to give discounts. League bowlers get 10%. Friends, teammates, frequent loyal customers get a deeper cut.
I've said it before...internet pricing is just coming back to where it always should have been. $169 is starting to get steep I agree, but previous pricing was in line with what should be acceptable imo.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 10, 2012, 10:10:53 AM
Are you going to raise your prices when then $179 or $189 prices come out, and it costs you $150 to get a ball in? Your $229 out the door will not cut it anymore, you then have to raise your prices and hope people pay.
I do not see the logic in this economy to keep raising prices $10 to $15 every 3 or 4 months.
When balls were about $120 to get in, they were sold for $209.99. Now balls are almost $150 to get in and they still have to be sold for $209.99. There is no way in this economy in some areas you can get $230 to $250 for a bowling ball.
This is my gripe with the price fixing. The difference between the internet price and the pro shop price hasn't changed much at all. The difference now is all balls cost $20 to $30 more than they did before this price fixing.
It's smoke and mirrors now in my opinion.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 11:14 AM
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 10, 2012, 10:13:57 AM
The words echo in my ears .. "it's only $10" .. "everything is going up" , "old guys are just cheap" .. looks like I now have some company! 
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 10, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
Joe, some of the problem is because the ball companies didn't take a slow progressive step to raising prices. They just decided to up the ante right away. I think we all pretty much agree we expected a price change, within a x amount of range, but the range is quickly rising faster than expected.
Ebonite is the villain here. They want to be $10 to $15 higher than any of the other brands (excluding Lane #1 and some of the other smaller ones)
What has Ebonite done to really warrant this? Heck Storm balls are cheaper, and their performance are better, and they have a much better "super cover".
I'm starting to think Ebonite is simply about greed and talking out of both sides of their mouth to everyone.
Let's "Save Bowling" but produce so many bowling balls that it's impossible to even keep up with what is going on. Let's "Save Bowling" but we want to be able to produce more and more bowling balls, that in some peoples opinion are part of the problem that needs to be "Saved"
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/10/2012 at 11:37 AM
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 10, 2012, 10:36:39 AM
That's what they were doing right from the start! Looks like what Ebonite did to the On-Line shops they are now doing to the B/M guys .. putting it where it HURTS! 
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 10, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
The B/Ms can still get good deals at the introductory price, and at the prompt pay price but if your a B/M that needs a ball for a customer tomorrow and you don't have it in stock, your not getting a price break. It's going to cost as much as the on line places once you factor in the shipping costs.
The B/Ms that can buy in volume at the intro price, and can prompt pay can save money. The smaller pro shops that go from ball to ball, or only order 1 or 2 at the intro price end up spending $ too.
Post by: charlest on February 10, 2012, 12:12:30 PM
I wouldn't blame Ebonite alone. They're just keeping up with the Joneses.
Remember the human condition (or the American affliction): if it costs more, it must be better.
Storm started it with the Virtual Gravity and now, the Nano. These were/are 2 of the most popular balls of the 21st century. And STorm kept raising their prices more and more with each new release.
How, in all honesty,can the other manufacturers charge less than Storm and expect the gullible American public to buy their balls instead of Storm's???
Ebonite's pricing of the Pursuits is right up there in Marketing 101 and Psychology 101. Do you have any idea how people will buy them just because they are more expensive?
A LOT!!
Certainly not I nor Joe Falco, but a whole lot of people will.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited by charlest on 2/10/2012 at 4:31 PM
Post by: completebowler on February 10, 2012, 01:26:30 PM
Well I would agree with you if your numbers were accurate but they are not. HP balls for me have gone up about $8-$12 in the last 5 years. It is only the internet prices that have seen this jump. Here is a ball from 3 years ago. Notice the MSRP? Difference is, that ball was selling for about $8-$10 more than I could get it for...around $129-$131.
Mission X is selling for $159.99 now. I can get it for $134.99. Prices for me have only gone up $5 in three years in this comparison. That is extremely reasonable in my book. Now if the Pursuit line comes out to me at $145 or so then Ebonite will most likely get an email from me. That said, I doubt very highly that it will. It will probably be $138 or so.
The prices have been static for most of the last decade. Top end has been near $229 for that long. Internet pricing has had some effect on this but you won't see huge spikes at your local shop. Maybe just less discounts. That was the goal of the manufacturers to begin with...to level the playing field.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Strapper_Squared on February 10, 2012, 01:45:51 PM
S^2
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Post by: completebowler on February 10, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
They already do. The Burst line was top end performance at less than $100 wholesale. Reign/VR is available...plenty of hook in those 2. Cyclones/Gamebreakers/Gamechangers with the One cover still perform great.
The only balls effected really are the very top end, very newest releases. I can get Mission Dominations for $75 right now. If you came in my shop and wanted one of them I would sell it for between $150-$180. WTF is wrong with that ball??? 920T's closed out last year at $49...I bought a case of them. Drilled one for myself and sold the rest for $150 after I shot 299 second game out of the box. Great margin for me, great deal for customer, plenty of performance.
It isn't that the deals aren't available. Just that they aren't available if you want the very newest/latest/greatest. That's the norm in any market. Just think about consumer electronics.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Juggernaut on February 10, 2012, 02:54:21 PM
Yeah Joe,
Weren't you and I the ones that got blasted out of the water for complaining, and told we didn't understand, when we complained that MAP pricing was just the beginning of the screw job the manufacturers were putting on us?
The ball manufacturers have flooded and drowned the market in useless product, that they have foisted on an un-informed public, that is following their lead in lemming-like lockstep.
I said it then, and I will say it again: PROSHOPS, GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS, BALL MANUFACTURERS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU NOW, AND THEY NEVER HAVE!
_______________________________________________________________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________________________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________________________________
Post by: mainzer on February 10, 2012, 04:38:30 PM
And after you spend that amount of money on the ball then pay to drill it. It will only hook for about 20-50 games then EBI will have a new ball (the same at the old one that just died on you) that you can pay way to much money for.
Don't fall into the trap!!
MainzerPower
Post by: Perfect Approach Pro Shop on February 10, 2012, 06:19:48 PM
Have to agree with the overreleasing of balls thought. Seems this years everytime Columbia would release a ball I would get literature a week prior to release date on a new release that they were producing. Hell why do I want the Ransom Demand when the Encounter is coming out in 3 weeks. Why do I want the Encounter when the Omen is due to be released. Why do I want the Omen when the Dark Encounter is due out. And that leads to why most pro shops only have 1-2 balls on hand so they don't get stuck with old inventory.
I thought EBI was cutting back on mass releasing also. HOPE EBI READS THESE FORUMS. Huge reason why I Storm/Roto Grip are my primary stocked items as I can sell there products 2-4 months after released because they are not outdated and they seem to be more durable.
J. Helton
Perfect Approach Pro Shop
Post by: billdozer on February 10, 2012, 08:30:56 PM
I can agree with the storm/roto shelf life...for example if I saw a second dimension in a shop or an agent ball Id probably buy it in a heartbeat. Just wait for the virtual gravity nanos to get scarce, ppl will fight over those soon. the best thing about EBI for me as the consumer, is I know their seriously hyped up products, go on fire sale very quickly...Like right now...the vital energy which was supposed to be a "great release" just like the signals was...on buddiesproshop.com you can get the vital energy for $60 ...and signals for $99...as soon as more and more consumers realize this...there will be no point to have a pro shop with inventory. they need to charge a fee to the online sellers or something...but remember the companies gotta sell balls and if the online shops sell more why wouldnt you cater to them. its a nasty cycle and theres gotta be a way to fix it...and honestly if they help proshops, theyre going to lose sales online...Im starting to think no one wins this war....except the ball companies.
Don't throw strikes, throw BOLTS!
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 10, 2012, 08:49:59 PM
The rude awakening! One thing for sure when they did this PRICE FIX they certainly weren't doing it for the BOWLER!
Post by: northface28 on February 10, 2012, 10:09:30 PM
Doesnt matter much to me, EBI can come out with a ball once a day until the end of time. I wont acknowledge their releases. Their whole ”throw crap against the wall and hope it sticks” is infuriating. Sure, other companies ”miss” but Ebonite specifically strikes out way more than other brands.
I have a feeling these Pursuit balls will be much like the Killer Instinct line from years ago. (arguably some of the.worst balls in history) I could be wrong, but then again its Ebonite.
”Im a really good bowler, ask Ron”
Post by: completebowler on February 11, 2012, 11:05:14 AM
No it wasn't Joe...They were clear in stating that the MAP pricing was to help level the playing field for pro shops that couldn't compete with the online prices. It never was originated to bring the product to the consumer at cheaper prices. As I have stated before...you had that for a decade with the online prices. Now it is going to get back to the way it was in the 90's. Enjoy the fact that balls were sooo cheap for a decade.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 11, 2012, 11:38:29 AM
Around my area in the late 90's, premium balls were $180 to $190 "out the door". People were able to continue buying premium balls for that same price until this past year when the pricing changed. Now those same premium balls are $225 - $230 "out the door". To sum it up, balls here weren't all that cheap in the 90's, but were cheap in the 2000's when you figure in inflation and the cost of things of the 90's vs the 2000's.
**********************************************************************
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Brick
Post by: glssmn2001 on February 11, 2012, 11:46:45 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 11, 2012, 11:54:38 AM
There is some truth to what you said. Also, the name of person running the pro shop makes a difference. We have a local pro shop in the OKC area run by a former pro and the prices in that shop are higher than other shops in this area because of the mane of person running the shop. The driller's name alone sells balls.
**********************************************************************
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Brick
Post by: glssmn2001 on February 11, 2012, 12:10:55 PM
Yeah, one of the shops around here with a well known owner has pretty high prices also, so be it. I will pay whatever the price if that shop gets me products that work. Not that I go to the most expensive shop, but I am the bowler who shows a sense of loyalty and expect the same back, no matter the cost....
Post by: charlest on February 11, 2012, 12:15:10 PM
Retail pricing - yes, to some degree.
Some localities can only charge so much depending a lot on the local economy. BUT the internet pricing is consistent across the country, usually being the lowest price that the manufacturer allows plus shipping. Most local pro shops can only buy balls at that price because they don't buy in large quantities. Large volume places, like many internet shops, do buy in volume and can offer lower prices generally.
Local pro shops have to make a living and stock balls and have lots of equipment and other overhead. They can't make living charge $25 for drilling and the internet price for a sold, drilled ball. Even adding $50 these days would not allow a small pro shop owner to "earn a living".
The price I quoted that started this thread was the "internet" price, which is the lowest price allowed by Ebonite.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."