Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 15, 2009, 03:53:43 PM
Also, I'm thinking about going up to 15 lbs. I don't know, though. I've tried 15s and they just tire me out and they start to feel heavy after a few games.
I know that there's nobody out there throwing 14s on tour, and I know that 95% of them, if not all, have a 5 step approach.
What are your suggestions?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3r99S5PVQ
(I also have 1 more vid with clips of me from early 2007-now, so check that out too, if you’d like to see my ‘progress’)
On a separate note, I think some of my layouts are just duplications. I lay out some of my own stuff, but the pro shop operator tends to make his own little "suggestions" and I end up with a lot of balls being VERY similar. This is my current 12 ball arsenal (yes, they're all ebonite). Tell me what you think. BTW, these are all 14s, and would be tough to recreate this arsenal in 15s, which is also another part of the reason I've hesitated to go to 15s. :/ Really stuck here, as I'm super poor.
Infinite One – (Mass Bias drilled out in thumbhole) http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/InfiniteOneMBinThumbhole.jpg
Raid – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/Raid.jpg
NVD – (Mismarked CG) http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/NVDMismarkedCG.jpg
Smash Time Solid – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/SmashTimeSolid.jpg
Complete NV – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/CompleteNV.jpg
Playmaker – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/Playmaker.jpg
SR300 – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/SR300.jpg
The One – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/TheOne.jpg
Ice – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/Ice.jpg
Bash gold/purple – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/BashG-P.jpg
Tornado – (X-hole above Bridge) http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/TornadoX-holeaboveBridge.jpg
Maxim – http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k116/rockerbowler18/Maxim.jpg
If I were to go to 15s, what would you suggest I get to replace these efficiently? (meaning, a few used, some easier to find, fewer balls overall, etc…for example: maybe a used Total NV instead of The One because The One is harder to find and more expensive new than a TNV…Maybe not getting the SR300…etc…just your suggestions)
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Post by: SVstar34 on March 15, 2009, 11:59:32 PM
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My Arsenal:
Rogue Cell (coming soon)
Bounty(4.5 x 4.75 Fresh 1000 Abralon)
Twisted Fury(5 x 4 500 Abralon + Reacta Shine)
Raw Hammer Pain(Leverage 1000 Abralon)
Blue Vibe(5 x 5 4000 Abralon + Reacta Shine)
Post by: Jay on March 16, 2009, 12:58:35 AM
For what it's worth I was throwing 14s for about 3 years, maybe 4. I've now been throwing 15s for a little over a year and I'm honestly thinking about going back down. The only thing that would stop me from making the switch at this point is I might flat 10 more. It didn't really hit me for a while, but it did seem like 15s carried a little better for me, although that could have been a bad match up of equipment for me(Sorry to say but it was all ebonite
, then again it could have been the weight because I had one ebonite in 15 that rolled great for me). Even so, my average hasn't gotten much better anyways.
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 16, 2009, 01:11:32 AM
quote:
Are you contemplating making both of these changes, as opposed to just one of them, to offset the speed changes? Meaning, if you go to 5 steps now you might over throw your 14s and you'll throw the 15s too slow if you don't increase your steps?
Not necessarily to offset each other. I'm just saying that 15 lb'ers and 5 step approaches seem to be the general concensus of the pros in the biz and coaches in the biz...so I was thinking of doing these. I rarely, and when I say rarely, I mean 1 in 10-15 games, leave a flat 10. It's full ringing solid 10 or no 10 pin at all.
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Post by: J_Mac on March 16, 2009, 01:14:05 AM
Post by: Jay on March 16, 2009, 02:07:50 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 16, 2009, 09:12:41 AM
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Post by: SVstar34 on March 16, 2009, 09:25:42 AM
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My Arsenal:
Rogue Cell (coming soon)
Bounty(4.5 x 4.75 Fresh 1000 Abralon)
Twisted Fury(5 x 4 500 Abralon + Reacta Shine)
Raw Hammer Pain(Leverage 1000 Abralon)
Blue Vibe(5 x 5 4000 Abralon + Reacta Shine)
Post by: los2003 on March 16, 2009, 09:44:16 AM
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 16, 2009, 09:58:59 AM
quote:Didn't expect my name to show up randomly in this thread, but there it is.
Oh okay. I don't really see using 4 steps with 15s a problem. I know Dan Belcher from this site uses 4 steps but I don't know what weight he throws, I'm pretty sure it's 15 or 16. As for 10 pins, maybe they weren't flat and I just consider them such only because it wasn't high flush(although still clearly a pocket hit). If I had to guess, I'd say I left maybe two extra 10 pins per set, not that significant.
Yes, I do use a four-step approach, and yes I throw 15lb equipment. And actually I have been actively working on slowing down my ball speed (it was around 17-17.5mph on the Qubica measurement system, now it's down to 15.75 - 16.5 usually), since I tend to force it a bit in my downswing, which makes the flat spot at the bottom of my swing too small. And for what it's worth, I plugged and redrilled a 16lb ball a few weeks ago for the hell of it, I found an ancient Nuline Excaliber in my buddy's basement. Hate the reaction, but also am not terribly fond of the heavier weight. My ball speed didn't change as much as I anticipated, but I definately felt the extra weight and didn't like it.
Now looking at your video, rockerbowler18, I think you would feel a little more comfortable if you started your pushaway sooner, and also made your transition from the power step to the slide step quicker. You're slowing your feet down a ton there waiting on the ball to come down from the top of the backswing. Then you're compensating some by really accelerating your arm at the bottom of the swing through the follow-through to get extra speed and revs. Switching to a five step approach might help you accomplish this, it might not. I don't know. I've tried using five steps before and just hated the way it felt and never could get comfortable with it, so I'm not the best judge of that.
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 16, 2009, 02:02:54 PM
quote:quote:Didn't expect my name to show up randomly in this thread, but there it is.
Oh okay. I don't really see using 4 steps with 15s a problem. I know Dan Belcher from this site uses 4 steps but I don't know what weight he throws, I'm pretty sure it's 15 or 16. As for 10 pins, maybe they weren't flat and I just consider them such only because it wasn't high flush(although still clearly a pocket hit). If I had to guess, I'd say I left maybe two extra 10 pins per set, not that significant.
Yes, I do use a four-step approach, and yes I throw 15lb equipment. And actually I have been actively working on slowing down my ball speed (it was around 17-17.5mph on the Qubica measurement system, now it's down to 15.75 - 16.5 usually), since I tend to force it a bit in my downswing, which makes the flat spot at the bottom of my swing too small. And for what it's worth, I plugged and redrilled a 16lb ball a few weeks ago for the hell of it, I found an ancient Nuline Excaliber in my buddy's basement. Hate the reaction, but also am not terribly fond of the heavier weight. My ball speed didn't change as much as I anticipated, but I definately felt the extra weight and didn't like it.
Now looking at your video, rockerbowler18, I think you would feel a little more comfortable if you started your pushaway sooner, and also made your transition from the power step to the slide step quicker. You're slowing your feet down a ton there waiting on the ball to come down from the top of the backswing. Then you're compensating some by really accelerating your arm at the bottom of the swing through the follow-through to get extra speed and revs. Switching to a five step approach might help you accomplish this, it might not. I don't know. I've tried using five steps before and just hated the way it felt and never could get comfortable with it, so I'm not the best judge of that.
I feel the same way about 5 steps. I have tried it before and struggled to get comfortable.
As far as my timing is concerned, I have spoken and taken lessons from (Speaking of which, I need to call him for a follow up lesson.) Mark Baker. He thinks that my timing is just fine, but agrees with the pulling the ball down, aspect, where I wait and then pull the ball through for speed and revs.
I don't necessarily think that either of these changes will 'help' my game. I'm just hoping, because I can't see anything specific most days, but I seem to be "behind the pack" as a general rule. I was thinking that maybe by "stepping up my game" to what the pros do, it would help me. I don't know, though. My thinking behind the decision is something to the effect of: "Everyone out there who's really successful is a 5 or 6 step approach with 15 lb. equipment. There must be something to it, or they'd all be 4 stepping and 14 lb'ing like me."
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Post by: JohnP on March 16, 2009, 02:57:29 PM
Post by: Strider on March 16, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Nothing wrong with trying a 5 step approach to see how it feels or to have another choice available, but if 4 steps is working for you, why change? Again, don't worry about how many steps the pros take. There are a lot of guys who don't use 5, but again, it's what works for you.
If I didn't have so much equipment I like (and some that would be very hard to replace), I'd be very tempted to switch to 14#.
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Post by: Dan Belcher on March 16, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
quote:Timing is an oddball thing in bowling. Your timing IS essentially fine. You are on-balance throughout the shot, and that's the most important aspect of your timing. My suggestion was meant to be the way to fix the part where you pull the ball down through the bottom of the swing for speed and revs. Usually to fix one aspect of your approach, you have to fix whatever precedes it, if that makes any sense. I was just suggesting one way to reduce that little speed boost at the bottom, since your swing timing would change to the point where you wouldn't be able to do that and still feel balanced.
As far as my timing is concerned, I have spoken and taken lessons from (Speaking of which, I need to call him for a follow up lesson.) Mark Baker. He thinks that my timing is just fine, but agrees with the pulling the ball down, aspect, where I wait and then pull the ball through for speed and revs.
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 16, 2009, 06:27:05 PM
That is one of the things that both Mark Baker and Joe Slowinski have worked with me on: pulling the ball down from the height of the backswing. It creates my flat spot in the wrong place, rather than right at the bottom as I release.
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Post by: Jay on March 17, 2009, 12:31:48 AM
Rocker, I do agree that your timing is okay at the line, maybe a little late, but the proper time to put the ball in motion is with your first right foot step(with 4 or 5 steps). Not saying you should do that and be like everyone else, but like Dan said it might eliminate your need to pull the ball in the downswing.
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 17, 2009, 12:41:40 AM
I've always thought about changing it, but if the coaches I see think it's fine, I'm willing to accept that, seeing as how the coaches I see are pretty much first rate.
By the way, I forgot to mention, my dad is a silver certified coach with bowlersmap.
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Post by: lenstanles703 on March 17, 2009, 07:32:47 AM
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Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 18, 2009, 12:49:54 AM
I can see you saying that for the end of the video, where I've come up a little, but if you look at the point of release, I have quite a bit of kneebend.
Just asking...maybe you were looking at point of release, maybe you weren't. I just wanted to make sure everyone was seeing the same thing I am, or if I'm just biased because it's me.
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Post by: chitown on March 18, 2009, 08:20:33 AM
I know a guy in my league that uses a one step approach and is a pretty dam good bowler!
Do what works for you and don't worry about what others do.
Post by: JohnP on March 18, 2009, 10:44:15 AM
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 18, 2009, 11:40:48 PM
quote:
Don't know if anyone has mentioned it to you, but you seem to have a "hitch" in your third step. Greatly pronounced heel/toe. Perhaps more of a shuffle/sliding kind of step may be of some value.
LMAO!
When I was uploading that video, I looked over my shoulder at my dad and said, and I quote.
"WHAT THE HE11 IS THAT!!?!?!??"
"What?"
"That third step!!!"
"I don't know"
"Look at that ugly jerk! Holy crap...do I always do that?"
"Probably, it's in all the video from that day."
"There is no excuse for that crap...unless my ankle was injured that day." (which is entirely possible. I could barely walk earlier in the year, and idk when that vid was taken.)
I need to take new vid, because you're right. It's like I'm jerking my leg up too high. My dad thought maybe I was lifting my foot high quick on purpose because I have big feet and that's my crossover step, so I'm trying not to bump my other foot/the ball. I'm lifting high to get over my other foot/out of the way of the backswing.
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Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 19, 2009, 12:15:30 AM
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Post by: pin-chaser on March 19, 2009, 07:38:25 AM
I agree with others that state your approach is fine. However I see much more potential in it and would suggest that before you make major changes try to maximize what you do now.
1. I see lots of little movement in the ball throughout your swing,
2. Your armswing could be better aligned with your target line,
3. Your finish position could be stronger
4. Your release could be improved just to name a few obvious items.
Simplify, simplify, simplify. Not complicate until there is no other choices.
Post by: rockerbowler18 on March 20, 2009, 05:08:18 PM
quote:
Rocket,
I agree with others that state your approach is fine. However I see much more potential in it and would suggest that before you make major changes try to maximize what you do now.
1. I see lots of little movement in the ball throughout your swing,
2. Your armswing could be better aligned with your target line,
3. Your finish position could be stronger
4. Your release could be improved just to name a few obvious items.
Simplify, simplify, simplify. Not complicate until there is no other choices.
I don't think any specific improvement is "obvious" at the level of the game that I'm competing at, but that's a different story.
Umm...I'm not sure I understand any of your comments.
1. Yes, the ball moves in my swing. It's supposed to. What kind of "little movements"?
2. My armswing is already in line with my target line...
3. How could I improve my finish position? Earlier, we discussed more knee bend, but I pointed out that at the point of release, I have plenty of knee bend...so what is your specific suggestion here.
4. I don't even know where this comment could've come from. I don't pre-turn the ball, I have a nice rev rate, it comes clean off my hand and onto the lane, I'm not spinning the ball...what is wrong with my release?
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