Author Topic: League Bowling as practice - Sandbagging - Fine Line (Read 7255 times)

txbowler · « **on:** March 04, 2011, 04:38:29 AM »

As a followup to the using plastic in league as your primary ball topic currently being discussed...

I do not practice very often. Maybe a couple times a year. And most of the upper tier bowlers that I bowl with do not either because 1) They have jobs, 2) they have families 3) Practice costs $4 and up a game. So the end result is sometimes league becomes practice. You are trying a new ball out on league, or you are working on your game during league. For example, you are playing the gutter with you least aggressive reactive reactive when you should be swinging it deep inside but you know you need some work on your straight up game.

So my questions are:

1) Does anyone else do this?

2) Is it really sandbagging?

al_g · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2011, 02:45:40 PM »

You're correct, you're making assumptions based on what I wrote. After re-reading(again) what I wrote some of it doesn't read as intended.

Using the term "try to bring my A game" was probably a bad choice of words. If I'm struggling and using league as practice it doesn't matter how bad I want a 700+ against a good team, it's not going to happen. More than likely I'm not hitting my average. But I will try to do my best against those teams that's all I was trying to say. If I'm bowling well I may not play alternate shots on these nights and I guess it's a matter of opinion if you think that's "sandbagging".

Where I bowl the house shots can play from multiple angles. I can play straight up 3-5 board sometimes but rarely inside of 20 due to the volume inside, but the track area is generally the "best". Some nights it's better in and other nights out. If I want to practice playing "in" one night in league and I hit my average and it ends up the majority of the scores were better playing "out" does that mean I was sandbagging because I could've shot 680+ instead of 650? Can someone guarantee me I would've scored/carried better playing out that night? What about the nights I'm practicing the outside/inside/whatever line by myself and score better than most everyone who's playing somewhere else? You can't always assume alternate line = lower score. This is why I made my comments about practicing when bowling on China and why I said "So in the end it's probably a wash on average."

I'm not sure where you came up with the issue of cap. I bowl in scratch leagues and tournaments, except for the local asscoiation tournament which is dominated by 160-190 bowlers, in fact so much they added a scratch all events in addition to handicap. There's also no cap on how high a team average is in our leagues if that's what you're referring to.

As I stated I use league for practice due to the reasons the OP listed:

"I do not practice very often. Maybe a couple times a year. And most of the upper tier bowlers that I bowl with do not either because 1) They have jobs, 2) they have families 3) Practice costs $4 and up a game. So the end result is sometimes league becomes practice."

Do I use league as practice sometimes? Yes but not every time. Only if I'm struggling with some part of my game or feel I need to work on playing a different line. So it really depends. If I'm bowling well I may not need to practice for a 1-2 months. If I've been bowling bad I may use league as practice for 1-3 weeks. It just depends on if I get things worked out or not. I do not intentionally use it for "average control" to gain a benefit in tournaments.

I like to work on improving my game but if I have other commitments and don't have time to do it then what are the other options? If you know, let those of us who do this know so we won't be "sandbagging". Or should we give up our desire to get better because we don't have the time, money or some other reason not to go out and practice every week?

spmcgivern wrote on 3/5/2011 5:35 PM:If you are using this average for tournaments, then I would have to disagree. To me, what you are describing is average control, just with a different way of describing it. You "practice" different lines and different balls based on some tournament coming up and only if you are going to be bowling someone of a higher caliber do you decide to bring out your "A" game? It doesn't matter if the league is scratch, you will still use this average for tournaments and that is where the advantage can be taken.

And if you do this in one league, my bet is you do it all leagues you bowl to some extent. And since your whole team does this, then I bet you are able to fall under the cap in that league also based on this "practice".

Maybe I am taking this further than the average person. I see too many people who practice "average control" and are willing to admit it, especially in TCBA. However, I don't know your whole story and I am making assumptions based on your reply. But anyone who says they bring out their "A" game only when they think they need it is a sandbagger in my book.
al_g wrote on 3/5/2011 9:07 AM:I don't practice as often either and sometimes practice in league for the exact reasons you stated. And Xcessive_Evil's response fits me perfectly.
Xcessive_Evil wrote on 3/4/2011 1:47 PM:1) I do, while bowling a scratch league and still managing a 215 avg.

2) I don't think so. Most of the tourneys I bowl are scratch. Even when I do bowl hdcp I at the most get 10 pins anyway.

I stone 8s and 9s like its cool...
For the detractors who will automatically assume I'm selfish and hurting my team or others:

1. I enjoy the team part of bowling the best. Who we're bowling against on a particular night will effect whether I use it as practice or not. I would never put myself above my teammates. I always try to bring my A game against the better teams so I don't hurt the team. Since we only bowl in scratch leagues handicap is not a factor.

2. You're assuming my teammates don't know I'm doing this and we haven't discussed this topic. Wrong. Some of them do the same thing. We enjoy bowling together but understand if someone's going to a tournament they may need to work on something and we're OK with that. In fact our team might take a hit in league before we go to Nationals because we're all practicing and that's OK with us. If you're doing that and your teammates don't know then it's a different issue.

3. Let's face it, most of us bowl on China. If I'm practicing a different line or on my accuracy does it make that big of difference if I have 3 boards to hit(even though I'm trying to hit one) as opposed to 5 to hit the pocket? Over the course of a season I really don't see using league as practice effecting my average more than 3 pins, if at all. On that occasional night during the season where the shot changed or is "tougher" that's when my practice pays off while others are complaining about scores and the shot not being the same. So in the end it's probably a wash on average.

Edited by al_g on 3/5/2011 at 9:49 AM

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Edited by al_g on 3/6/2011 at 3:52 PM

Easy10pins · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:27:57 AM »

I alway start with my weakest ball which in my Storm Natural Pearl. Mainly because I'm trying to play the line that no one else is and/or a line that will be the most consistent for me.

I consider myself fortunate in that I can practice for free during lunch at the base bowling centers, Mon. Wed. Fri from 11am until 1pm with my coach.

I use whatever ball works for me.

Gazoo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2011, 05:18:35 AM »

If your are gaining a handicap advantage you would not normally have by throwing plastic, practicing, or throwing equipment not meant for the condition, how could it not be sandbagging. If your not gaining an advantage then no. Sandbagging is about gaining an unfair advantage in league and tournaments where handicap is used.

EagleHunter · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2011, 06:54:40 AM »

Gazoo wrote on 3/8/2011 6:18 AM:
If your are gaining a handicap advantage you would not normally have by throwing plastic, practicing, or throwing equipment not meant for the condition, how could it not be sandbagging. If your not gaining an advantage then no. Sandbagging is about gaining an unfair advantage in league and tournaments where handicap is used.

I was waiting for this argument to come out...

Please re-read what you just wrote. Are you seriously suggesting that "throwing equipment not meant for the condition" is sandbagging? If so, then isn't EVERY "average" bowler using plastic, urethane, or perhaps even the latest greatest hook-monster sandbagging...IF that ball isn't meant to be thrown on that condition?

Honest to God...PLEASE show me where in the USBC rulebook (or any other rulebook for that matter) it states that you MUST throw ONLY the ball that will work on a given condition. Since some of you seem to imply (over and over) that using the incorrect piece is sandbagging, shouldn't USBC be mandating to each center (based on their lane conditions) EXACTLY which type of ball will score the highest...thereby ensuring that anyone NOT using the piece could be hit with charges for sandbagging?

Is that example extreme? Absolutely. It's also quite ludicrous, much like some of the rants related to this topic. The bottom line is the same...sandbagging is this - intentionally performing less than one's ability.

However, one's ability may very well be different depending on the lane condition being bowled on, the characteristics of the bowling center/lanes, the type of ball being thrown, and the bowling environment.

If someone bowls in a "drinking" league, or simply gets hammered as the night goes on, is this person sandbagging (assuming his scores are actually going down)? Some of you would be inclined to say yes. However, you would be wrong. The person's ability has been affected by the introduction of alcohol, yet he is most likely still performing to the best of his, albeit degraded, ability...therefore he is not sandbagging.

If a bowler owns an arsenal of equipment, is this person sandbagging by deciding to use ANY of the balls in his arsenal? Again, some of you would be inclined to say yes. However, you would be wrong again. The person's ability is not affected by the ball in his hand...his ability to score may be, however his ability is not. If this person bowls to best of his ability, using WHATEVER equipment he chooses, than he is not sandbagging.

If a bowler has a choice of bowling in two centers...he knows that the condition at one is super easy, the other is much harder (for argument sake, let's assume a 10-15 pin difference in average), is he sandbagging if he chooses to bowl in the harder center? Once again, according to some of you, you would say yes. But you would be wrong again. Is the bowler's ability different just because his average is different? Not at all.

If a bowler tends to bowl higher scores on oilier lane patterns, is he sandbagging if he bowls in a league with drier lane patterns? What about the opposite? Some of you would seem to imply that this bowler is sandbagging. Once again...wrong.

Too many of you get caught up in the ability = scoring issue. Ability does NOT equal scoring! Sandbagging is about not performing up to one's ABILITY, not up to the SCORE that other's think that bowler should be getting.

Attempting to pick the 7 or 10 clean in a league game is most likely sandbagging. Merely using plastic, or your most aggressive piece for that matter, when the condition doesn't necessarily call for it, is not sandbagging if you are performing to the best of your ABILITY, regardless of the SCORE.

Edited by EagleHunter on 3/8/2011 at 7:57 AM

Edited by EagleHunter on 3/8/2011 at 7:58 AM

trash heap · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2011, 07:24:56 AM »

Very well stated Eagle! Totally Agree!!!

Gazoo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:50:02 PM »

Eaglehunter,

I did re read my post and I think you should as well. I did not say say that using plastic, or the wrong ball on the wrong condition, or practicing during league was sandbagging. I stated if it was being done for the purpose to inflate ones handicap to give one and unfair advantage in a league or tournament then it was. If an unfair advantage was not being created then it wasn't sandbagging.

EagleHunter wrote on 3/8/2011 7:54 AM:

Gazoo wrote on 3/8/2011 6:18 AM:

If your are gaining a handicap advantage you would not normally have by throwing plastic, practicing, or throwing equipment not meant for the condition, how could it not be sandbagging. If your not gaining an advantage then no. Sandbagging is about gaining an unfair advantage in league and tournaments where handicap is used.

I was waiting for this argument to come out...

Please re-read what you just wrote. Are you seriously suggesting that "throwing equipment not meant for the condition" is sandbagging? If so, then isn't EVERY "average" bowler using plastic, urethane, or perhaps even the latest greatest hook-monster sandbagging...IF that ball isn't meant to be thrown on that condition?

Honest to God...PLEASE show me where in the USBC rulebook (or any other rulebook for that matter) it states that you MUST throw ONLY the ball that will work on a given condition. Since some of you seem to imply (over and over) that using the incorrect piece is sandbagging, shouldn't USBC be mandating to each center (based on their lane conditions) EXACTLY which type of ball will score the highest...thereby ensuring that anyone NOT using the piece could be hit with charges for sandbagging?

Is that example extreme? Absolutely. It's also quite ludicrous, much like some of the rants related to this topic. The bottom line is the same...sandbagging is this - intentionally performing less than one's ability.

However, one's ability may very well be different depending on the lane condition being bowled on, the characteristics of the bowling center/lanes, the type of ball being thrown, and the bowling environment.

If someone bowls in a "drinking" league, or simply gets hammered as the night goes on, is this person sandbagging (assuming his scores are actually going down)? Some of you would be inclined to say yes. However, you would be wrong. The person's ability has been affected by the introduction of alcohol, yet he is most likely still performing to the best of his, albeit degraded, ability...therefore he is not sandbagging.

If a bowler owns an arsenal of equipment, is this person sandbagging by deciding to use ANY of the balls in his arsenal? Again, some of you would be inclined to say yes. However, you would be wrong again. The person's ability is not affected by the ball in his hand...his ability to score may be, however his ability is not. If this person bowls to best of his ability, using WHATEVER equipment he chooses, than he is not sandbagging.

If a bowler has a choice of bowling in two centers...he knows that the condition at one is super easy, the other is much harder (for argument sake, let's assume a 10-15 pin difference in average), is he sandbagging if he chooses to bowl in the harder center? Once again, according to some of you, you would say yes. But you would be wrong again. Is the bowler's ability different just because his average is different? Not at all.

If a bowler tends to bowl higher scores on oilier lane patterns, is he sandbagging if he bowls in a league with drier lane patterns? What about the opposite? Some of you would seem to imply that this bowler is sandbagging. Once again...wrong.

Too many of you get caught up in the ability = scoring issue. Ability does NOT equal scoring! Sandbagging is about not performing up to one's ABILITY, not up to the SCORE that other's think that bowler should be getting.

Attempting to pick the 7 or 10 clean in a league game is most likely sandbagging. Merely using plastic, or your most aggressive piece for that matter, when the condition doesn't necessarily call for it, is not sandbagging if you are performing to the best of your ABILITY, regardless of the SCORE.

Edited by EagleHunter on 3/8/2011 at 7:57 AM

Edited by EagleHunter on 3/8/2011 at 7:58 AM

Edited by Gazoo on 3/8/2011 at 4:52 PM

sigmaphi9 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2011, 06:37:28 PM »

So, I suppose attempting to pick up the ten pin (right hander) with your VG Nano, without changing your release, but still trying as hard as you can with your 450 revs, is not? Using your logic, nothing wrong with it, even though most people would have a snowball's chance in hell of picking it up.

EagleHunter · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2011, 08:28:41 PM »

Gazoo...

You fail to see that you suggested exactly that which you deny, in addition to falling under the failed argument that ABILITY = SCORE. Based on your reply, gaining an advantage (handicap) means that sandbagging has occurred. The only way that such an "advantage" can be gained is if the bowler's average is lower than you (or some other bowler) feel it should be. However, once again you are equating SCORE with ABILITY. It is quite possible that a bowler would be performing to the best of his ABILITY, yet his average could decrease (see the various reasons listed in my previous post), resulting in an increase in handicap...or as you have put it, inflating his handicap.

What about the bowler that is undergoing coaching and is being taught to do something completely different? Typically that bowler's scores will go down, long before they go up. The bowler is performing to the best of his ABILITY, though it could be argued that he could SCORE higher if he went back to his old ways...would you suggest him of sandbagging? Should he disregard his coaches suggestions and go back to his old ways because, right now, they would allow him to SCORE higher? After all, the bowler is likely inflating (as you would put it) his handicap and will observe an advantage from it.

Sandbagging has NOTHING to do with handicap! Handicap may be a reason that a bowler chooses to sandbag, but then so could being in a lower scratch division without handicap at all. Sandbagging is about performing to a level that is less than a bowler's ABILITY...and that is it. And a bowler's ABILITY only relates to SCORE when EVERY single factor that can affect a bowler's ability to SCORE is equal for all participants.

sigmaphi9...

Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. Oh yeah, it's also what the rulebook says as well. Performing to the best of your ABILITY does not have a caveat that states "only if you have the correct ball in your hand (as determined by a panel of your peers)." Is this concept really that hard to understand?

Let me put this another way...suppose a first year bowler knows how to put revs on a ball like few others, but is rather inconsistent and is pretty much learning how to bowl. As such, this bowler owns only one ball (let's say he bought a VG Nano from the Internet) and only knows how to throw it one way. 1) What is the likelihood that this bowler will be able to make a corner pin, even if trying his best? 2) Is this bowler sandbagging (according to your definition, not the real one since we already know that he is not)?

Too many of you refuse to look at this issue objectively and instead look at how you are "getting robbed" by others. Is that to say that some bowlers are not actually sandbagging? Of course not. There are some who are, and those bowlers should be confronted, with evidence, and reported to USBC and the local association for review. However, you also need to take out the emotion and UNDERSTAND the rule.

Violating the rule, that would be sandbagging, means that a bowler purposely performed at a level below what their ABILITY dictates. But there is a HUGE difference between a bowler's ABILITY and his SCORE. All things being equal, if a bowler has more ABILITY, he will also SCORE higher than other bowlers. However, as described in my previous post, there are a large number of items that affect a bowler's ability to SCORE...however these items do not affect his ABILITY.

ABILITY does not equal ability to SCORE! Sandbagging is about a bowler's ABILITY, not about his ability to SCORE. Sandbagging has nothing to do with SCORE or handicap, period.

Track_Fanatic · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2011, 09:00:54 PM »

I have a similar issue with the league I bowl in. Our team happened to come together by chance last season. Some people knew of each other from work and then there's me, the odd one. I walked in coming out of retirement from bowling competitively for about 3 years. I hadn't really cared too much about my bowling but wanted to have a social night out. I ended the league averaging something like 205. There is this bowler on my team who just started bowling that season. Got a ball drilled up. Only 1. It was awesome watching him learn the game throughout the season. He would have a game of 200+ then shoot a 115 game the next. He got on himself really bad. Was he bagging? No way. We ended up winning the league. Our team was originally not going to go back to that league as peoples work schedule got weird and people wanting to bowl closer to where they live. However, with us winning the league, we felt we should defend our title. We've had a lot of ups and downs this year. Most of the bowlers on my team have lower averages than last season. We've also had some injuries to a bowler(me) and I can't bowl very often. But when I do, I give it my all. My scores may not show it. I'm currently down to 192. Now, the bowler who just started bowling last season, his average is now up to 177 from 157. However, he still has the occasional 120 game. He also has a spare ball and also bought a new high performance ball for this season. 2 weeks ago we were bowling this one team. In the first game, everyone had a 200 game on our team except 1 person. Happened again in the 2nd game. Then, someone on the opposite team made a comment of how they cant see why we have so much handicap. Needless to say, this was a way of saying we were sandbagging. This is so not true. I tried to explain that we all have bad games. We may have someone who is completely off but the others pick them up. Let's just say we didn't bowl well the last game and lost. We still took 3 out of 4 points. I know that everyone on my team including myself tries our best to bowl well every game. It doesn't happen all of the time. We had taken 4th place in the first half but we are in 1st place in the second half. If things go the way they are now, we will be bowling the same team for the title(hope i didn't jinx us). It's funny, the team that won the first half hasn't won too many games in the second half and are in last place (technically no, since we have a blind team). Are they being accused of sandbagging? It wouldn't surprise me if they were. Or they just don't care. But these guys show up every single night and you can tell they are trying. However, you will see some bowlers not try by the things they do out of the normal routine. When you bowl in a league, you tend to learn other bowlers habits.

Edited by Track_Fanatic on 3/8/2011 at 10:06 PM

Edited by Track_Fanatic on 3/8/2011 at 10:17 PM

Gazoo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:32:58 AM »

Eagle,

I agree that it is the "intent" of a bowler to bowl below their ability which is what I feel I have been saying maybe not coherntly. A bowler who under goes coaching to change a release might see a drop but his intent is not to gain a unfair advantage over his competitors. I don't feel that "Abiltiy = Score" as Ability is in the eye of the beholder regardless of scores. I was merely using handicap as bar for the thread because it can used to get and unfair advantage by a bowler lowering his scores(bowling below his ability)" intentionally". I have said many times, that "sandbagging" is not as rampant as many think it is due to the points you make.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #26 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:44:18 AM »

I agree with most of what you said. But as the OP stated, if a bowler uses league to practice a line they think they will need in a tournament, even if it is totally different than their normal line, is it considered sandbagging? If Bowler A bowls in a league every week and averages around 220 playing straight down 5. Then he has a tournament coming up where the lanes are going to be real dry and he needs to "practice" swinging across 20. So for league, he takes his normal ball and begins to throw the ball from 20 out to 10 barely hitting the headpin all night leaving a bunch of 2-10s and 2-8-10s and shoots 500. According to you, he may have tried his best at that line, irregardless of his score. But did he play to his "ability"?

I agree, it would be nearly impossible to prove that this person is sandbagging because he really did try. But I am sure those bowling against him will have a different opinion.

EagleHunter wrote on 3/8/2011 9:28 PM:
Gazoo...

You fail to see that you suggested exactly that which you deny, in addition to falling under the failed argument that ABILITY = SCORE. Based on your reply, gaining an advantage (handicap) means that sandbagging has occurred. The only way that such an "advantage" can be gained is if the bowler's average is lower than you (or some other bowler) feel it should be. However, once again you are equating SCORE with ABILITY. It is quite possible that a bowler would be performing to the best of his ABILITY, yet his average could decrease (see the various reasons listed in my previous post), resulting in an increase in handicap...or as you have put it, inflating his handicap.

What about the bowler that is undergoing coaching and is being taught to do something completely different? Typically that bowler's scores will go down, long before they go up. The bowler is performing to the best of his ABILITY, though it could be argued that he could SCORE higher if he went back to his old ways...would you suggest him of sandbagging? Should he disregard his coaches suggestions and go back to his old ways because, right now, they would allow him to SCORE higher? After all, the bowler is likely inflating (as you would put it) his handicap and will observe an advantage from it.

Sandbagging has NOTHING to do with handicap! Handicap may be a reason that a bowler chooses to sandbag, but then so could being in a lower scratch division without handicap at all. Sandbagging is about performing to a level that is less than a bowler's ABILITY...and that is it. And a bowler's ABILITY only relates to SCORE when EVERY single factor that can affect a bowler's ability to SCORE is equal for all participants.

sigmaphi9...

Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. Oh yeah, it's also what the rulebook says as well. Performing to the best of your ABILITY does not have a caveat that states "only if you have the correct ball in your hand (as determined by a panel of your peers)." Is this concept really that hard to understand?

Let me put this another way...suppose a first year bowler knows how to put revs on a ball like few others, but is rather inconsistent and is pretty much learning how to bowl. As such, this bowler owns only one ball (let's say he bought a VG Nano from the Internet) and only knows how to throw it one way. 1) What is the likelihood that this bowler will be able to make a corner pin, even if trying his best? 2) Is this bowler sandbagging (according to your definition, not the real one since we already know that he is not)?

Too many of you refuse to look at this issue objectively and instead look at how you are "getting robbed" by others. Is that to say that some bowlers are not actually sandbagging? Of course not. There are some who are, and those bowlers should be confronted, with evidence, and reported to USBC and the local association for review. However, you also need to take out the emotion and UNDERSTAND the rule.

Violating the rule, that would be sandbagging, means that a bowler purposely performed at a level below what their ABILITY dictates. But there is a HUGE difference between a bowler's ABILITY and his SCORE. All things being equal, if a bowler has more ABILITY, he will also SCORE higher than other bowlers. However, as described in my previous post, there are a large number of items that affect a bowler's ability to SCORE...however these items do not affect his ABILITY.

ABILITY does not equal ability to SCORE! Sandbagging is about a bowler's ABILITY, not about his ability to SCORE. Sandbagging has nothing to do with SCORE or handicap, period.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

trash heap · « **Reply #27 on:** March 09, 2011, 06:54:54 AM »

I don't think the team he is bowling against are going to be upset. If he is not scoring near his average obviously his team is not winning that night. I would imagine his team would have a bigger problem with it then the rest of the league.

Now what about this example: A bowler has two choices of centers to bowl one night a week. Center 1 has a very easy house pattern. Multiple 300 games are bowled their on a monthly basis. Center 2 has very tough condition. No one scores well, pattern changes week to week, oil machine sometimes works and other times it just does its own thing. All factors aside, there is no reason to pick one center from the other. They are both close to his house, he gets along with people in both leagues, the only factor is the shot. By you thinking he must go to Center 1 because his average will be higher and a small handicap.

Maybe this bowler wants a challenge. Maybe he doesn't want to go to lanes where stands in one place all night and score. This bowler also likes to go to handicap tournaments.

Is he a sandbagger, if he uses his one and only average?

I guess he should go to the tournament director and have his average modified...but what would be a fair average to give him?

spmcgivern wrote on 3/9/2011 6:44 AM:
I agree with most of what you said. But as the OP stated, if a bowler uses league to practice a line they think they will need in a tournament, even if it is totally different than their normal line, is it considered sandbagging? If Bowler A bowls in a league every week and averages around 220 playing straight down 5. Then he has a tournament coming up where the lanes are going to be real dry and he needs to "practice" swinging across 20. So for league, he takes his normal ball and begins to throw the ball from 20 out to 10 barely hitting the headpin all night leaving a bunch of 2-10s and 2-8-10s and shoots 500. According to you, he may have tried his best at that line, irregardless of his score. But did he play to his "ability"?

I agree, it would be nearly impossible to prove that this person is sandbagging because he really did try. But I am sure those bowling against him will have a different opinion.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Cobalt Bomb · « **Reply #28 on:** March 09, 2011, 07:19:01 AM »

I will add what I have said many times: Handicap leagues and tournaments are for FUN. Anyone that bowls handicap for any significant money is either clueless or gaming the system. There is no way to police averages, and even if they could average differences from house to house would make it worthless. Bowling for a couple of bucks to make it interesting is one thing. If the amount of money at stake is significant to you, then its too much. There is no way to make a handicap system truly fair.

As to the OP's question, my opinion is if it is done intentionally to gain an advantage based on the lower average, then it is sandbagging. No one would care about it if the bowler did not use his lowered average for financial or status gain.

Edited by Cobalt Bomb on 3/9/2011 at 8:21 AM

HamPster · « **Reply #29 on:** March 09, 2011, 07:44:28 AM »

You guys are killing me. Very straightforward topic as far as the definition of sandbagging, then you all completely forget that definition when you go to apply it. Sandbagging is intentionally performing at a lower level . . FOR THE PURPOSE OF GAINING EXTRA HANDICAP TO GET AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. If you are using league for practice, it seems obvious to me that you really dont care too much about wins or losses. And if you dont care too much about wins and losses, how could you be sandbagging? If you go into league with the mindset that you are practicing no matter who you bowl, how can it be sandbagging? Completely throwing away points and money to start with so you can gain points and money later? Makes no sense. Sandbaggers as a rule dont practice, thats the point of SANDBAGGING! Thats the lazy way out, if he was sandbagging, he wouldnt be practicing, sandbaggers dont need practice because they are getting a bunch of free pins. There are 10 pin rules and rerating rules in effect for everything else.

If im bowling someone, and they are using league time to practice . . the last thing on earth i would think is that they're sandbagging. Makes no sense.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

mainzer · « **Reply #30 on:** March 09, 2011, 08:00:57 AM »

On Mondays I bowl a PBAX league, we get the same pattern for three weeks then switch to another pattern, the first week of each pattern I experiment with use a ball I wouldnt normally try or line I wouldnt normally try on the pattern. the next two weeks I will try as little harder but overall I am in the league to learn and gain experince not score good, so I really dont care what the number is when I am done.

As far your THS Leagues go, my feeling I doubt will be popular. But here it is, Leagues are ONLY League. What does it matter if you use league as a practice session? As long as you are not trying to bowl poorly it is fine to practice in leagues. Now if you are going out and not even attempting to hit the pocket or make the line better if it is not working then their is a issue. But if you are trying a different line, release, ball etc and attempting to make it work right it is fine by me

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Author Topic: League Bowling as practice - Sandbagging - Fine Line (Read 7255 times)

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