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Author Topic: This should be an interesting debate...  (Read 3781 times)

The Hose

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This should be an interesting debate...
« on: January 07, 2004, 11:04:00 PM »
This is from another site.  The GTO is the Greater Tulsa Open.  Team/D/S handicap:

Allright everyone, I've got a situation. We recently bowled in the GTO, After bowling nine games the day before, one of our guys decided to go home. After notifying the tournament director that we needed a couple of subs, we never heard back from them. Two guys showed up to bowl that were not with us and we asked them if they were bowling for our spots. They said NO, they were subbing for another team. OK FINE.

Come to find out, they were bowling in our spots and were never told. They win the doubles tournamnent which pays approx. $4000. Can you believe that they are actually trying to give us back our entry and keep the REST of the money. If they wanted to pay for their spots, they would have tracked down who's spot they were bowling in and tried to pay for them. I could believe this if these were a couple of low average or new bowlers, but their not.

We are currently waiting on a ruling from ABC although the rule book says that the team captain will distribute the winnings. These free loaders want all the reward without any risk. We've offered to split 50/50 with them, but they refused.

ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS
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T-GOD

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2004, 02:11:50 PM »
They were under the impression that they were SUBBING, albeit that it was for another team. So, because they were subbing for a (another)team, the same rules should apply for the distribution of money on a TEAM..!!

Do not let them get away with them paying you only for your entry fee. You deserve a split of the money in my opinion. =:^D
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 02:22:26 PM »
T-God,  this was in Doubles.  The guys said that they would SUB if there were spots.  The TD told them to bowl on such and such pair.  Nothing was discussed before hand and the guys had no idea whos spot they were taking.  As a SUB in a tournament, I'd feel like I was doing THEM a favor for bowling.  If they din't get anyone to SUB, they still would have been out the money for the entry.  With nothing being discussed ahead of time, I feel that the guys should give the ENTRY fee back to the spot owners and keep the rest.  Why should someone else get what they won?  Again, nothing was discussed ahead of time.  Apparently, the TD didn't let the owners of the spot know that those guys were subbing for them, nor did the guys subbing know whos spot it was.  Interesting subject.
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T-GOD

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 02:33:18 PM »
Hose, I understood this was in doubles. Would it be any different if it were in the team event..? Let's say they subbed on the team and didn't pay any money for the entry fee. Then what..?

They didn't pay for the entry fee up front, so why should they deserve any money..? If they said they would pay their own money for the entry fee up front before bowling, then they would deserve prize money.

Subbing and "taking someone's spot", while paying for the spots up front, are 2 different situations. =:^D



Edited on 1/8/2004 3:36 PM
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iommifan

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2004, 02:39:02 PM »
If they were subs, they get nothing but free bowling. In leagues subs don't pay and don't get paid. Since this is a tournament I don't know how if works out. Since you already had bowled team, I don't know why subs were used for doubles or singles anyway. It would have been easier to just not have bowled and kept the two sets you did bowl. But in my opinion if it's a 50/50 split those subs made out like bandits.
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2004, 02:49:31 PM »
quote:
Hose, I understood this was in doubles. Would it be any different if it were in the team event..? Let's say they subbed on the team and didn't pay any money for the entry fee. Then what..?


T-God,  I do see a difference.  If it was Team, and if the won money, I'd say to take out the entry, then split 5 ways.  

I don't bowl those 80% of 220 tournaments but was asked to Sub ahead of time. I was told that the split would be 10 ways between all 10 of the bowlers, my share less the entry fee.  I agreed to that and between the 10 of us, we won about 3,000.  I expect to recieve about 220 bucks of that.  I my case, the deal was set before we bowled.  In the case above, I feel like the Team Capt. should have made it clear to the bowlers ahead of time what the deal was.   The Subs were just told that there was a spot for them to bowl, they didn't know whos spot it was.

There were plenty of oppertunites to sub, if they would have known they would have had to split what they had won, maybe they would have choosen not the bowl with them.

If those guy hadn't have bowled, what would the Team have gotten out of it?  Nothing!  This way they get their entry back.

I think they should make the orginal guys show up and bowl against the subs for the 4,000.

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T-GOD

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2004, 03:13:27 PM »
I agree with Toma. They didn't pay for the spot/entry up front, so you can't have it both ways..!! =:^D
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2004, 03:22:34 PM »
It sounds like we're all going on what "Should have and what Could have" happend,  I wonder if ABC has a stand on this issue?  Someone being PO'd or felt like it isn't right is one thing,  what is the "RULE"?

Everyone has great points, it's a shame that these things come up.  Always ask to make sure you know where everyone stands.
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anotherwindup

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2004, 03:41:02 PM »
IMO:  The doubles event is an event requiring 2 players, not 10.   2 of your guys from the original 10 left- their choice, your loss.   The guys who bowled in your spots should have reimbursed the spot holders for the entry, if they did not pay an entry to the tournament to bowl as well.  

I am guessing, but I bet the bowlers who left forfeit their spot and entry.  

The 2 new bowlers have nothing to do with your original 10, and therefore, I bet they paid an entry and are entitled to the winnings.   Your 8-10 guys did nothing to help those 2 win the doubles event.   You have nothing to do with their win, but now you want a cut of something that you did nothing to get.  

Best case scenario-  If they did not pay to bowl (which I can't believe the tournament would let them) then they owe you the entry fee and that is IT!!

Yes, they should have paid for the spot first, but if they didn't then you are still 2 entry fees better off then you were when 2 guys QUIT!!

Take the 2 entry fees and call it square!
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mumzie

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2004, 03:51:57 PM »

If it had been your original team members that won the doubles event, that money would normally NOT be split between the rest of the team(s), unless everyone agreed to that in advance.
If I won singles or doubles in an event with team, doubles, and singles, I'd expect to keep my winnings.
I think that the guys that took the spot are being quite classy in even offering to pay back the entry fee. In my mind, that's not necessary.
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T-Hob

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2004, 04:00:49 PM »
My question would be why did the 2 original bowlers leave when they knew they had more bowling to do. If you sign up to bowl in all events then it's your responsibility to be there for all events. If it were my team and they decided to go home, they forfeit their entry fees for the events that they didn't bowl. The subs winning the doubles event really doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the team. The tournament director put them in those spots not the team captain, so they really don't owe the team anything. Granted, the proper thing to do would be to at least pay the entry fees out of the prize money, but other than that, they bowled and earned the prize.
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2004, 04:28:55 PM »
El Duce,  I had nothing to do with it.  I saw it on the PBA.com Southwest forum.  You may go there for more info on what happend.  

I just wanted to see how you guys felt about it.
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2004, 04:47:56 PM »
How about this:  

You have 10 guys who bowl tournament and do a 10 way split.   At the last minute, one gets sick and another has car problems.  You are bolwing everything, Team, D/S all in one day and it's 10 minutes before you start your Team.  You've asked a couple of people to sub but you wish for thme to pay.  Finally you get someone because you don't want to take a zero.  Nothing is discussed and the sub shoots 830 and your Team wins 1000 bucks becuse of his great scores.   Would you give him anything?  Take out the 50 dollar entry fee then plit 10 ways giving 50 bucks?

Now the same thing happens in D/S and the subs win 1000 in singles and the rest of you win nothing.  HOw much should he get?  Again, no agreements were made ahead of time and the sub assumed he had a FREE spot to bowl.
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The Hose

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2004, 09:49:37 AM »
Back to the top.  I'd still like to hear your thoughts.
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jimsey

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Re: This should be an interesting debate...
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2004, 12:08:41 PM »
Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Team captain finds out at the last minute he's short 2 bowlers.  Doesn't effect his team event only singles and doubles.  He can't find subs at the last minute so he goes back to the tournament director and says he has lost 2 bowlers for the sunday squads and either rearranges his doubles assignment or merely gives up his spot.  Tournament director finds 2 bowlers that want to bowl but haven't been able to get spots.  If the TD had done his job correctly, he would have collected entry fees from the replacements and refunded the fees to the team captain or introduced them to the team captain and have them work out the finances.  In either case, the replacements should have paid back the entry fees and maybe bought the TD, team captain, and team bowlers a beverage and called it a day.

There should be no real ABC rule for this, it should have been handled locally by the TD, team captain, and replacement bowlers.  No reason for anyone to expect to profit from the performance of someone outside of their group without prior arrangements.
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