Post by: The Hose on January 07, 2004, 11:04:00 PM
Allright everyone, I've got a situation. We recently bowled in the GTO, After bowling nine games the day before, one of our guys decided to go home. After notifying the tournament director that we needed a couple of subs, we never heard back from them. Two guys showed up to bowl that were not with us and we asked them if they were bowling for our spots. They said NO, they were subbing for another team. OK FINE.
Come to find out, they were bowling in our spots and were never told. They win the doubles tournamnent which pays approx. $4000. Can you believe that they are actually trying to give us back our entry and keep the REST of the money. If they wanted to pay for their spots, they would have tracked down who's spot they were bowling in and tried to pay for them. I could believe this if these were a couple of low average or new bowlers, but their not.
We are currently waiting on a ruling from ABC although the rule book says that the team captain will distribute the winnings. These free loaders want all the reward without any risk. We've offered to split 50/50 with them, but they refused.
ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS
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Post by: T-GOD on January 08, 2004, 02:11:50 PM
Do not let them get away with them paying you only for your entry fee. You deserve a split of the money in my opinion. =:^D
Post by: The Hose on January 08, 2004, 02:22:26 PM
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Post by: T-GOD on January 08, 2004, 02:33:18 PM
They didn't pay for the entry fee up front, so why should they deserve any money..? If they said they would pay their own money for the entry fee up front before bowling, then they would deserve prize money.
Subbing and "taking someone's spot", while paying for the spots up front, are 2 different situations. =:^D
Edited on 1/8/2004 3:36 PM
Post by: iommifan on January 08, 2004, 02:39:02 PM
Post by: The Hose on January 08, 2004, 02:49:31 PM
quote:
Hose, I understood this was in doubles. Would it be any different if it were in the team event..? Let's say they subbed on the team and didn't pay any money for the entry fee. Then what..?
T-God, I do see a difference. If it was Team, and if the won money, I'd say to take out the entry, then split 5 ways.
I don't bowl those 80% of 220 tournaments but was asked to Sub ahead of time. I was told that the split would be 10 ways between all 10 of the bowlers, my share less the entry fee. I agreed to that and between the 10 of us, we won about 3,000. I expect to recieve about 220 bucks of that. I my case, the deal was set before we bowled. In the case above, I feel like the Team Capt. should have made it clear to the bowlers ahead of time what the deal was. The Subs were just told that there was a spot for them to bowl, they didn't know whos spot it was.
There were plenty of oppertunites to sub, if they would have known they would have had to split what they had won, maybe they would have choosen not the bowl with them.
If those guy hadn't have bowled, what would the Team have gotten out of it? Nothing! This way they get their entry back.
I think they should make the orginal guys show up and bowl against the subs for the 4,000.
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Post by: T-GOD on January 08, 2004, 03:13:27 PM
Post by: The Hose on January 08, 2004, 03:22:34 PM
Everyone has great points, it's a shame that these things come up. Always ask to make sure you know where everyone stands.
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Post by: anotherwindup on January 08, 2004, 03:41:02 PM
I am guessing, but I bet the bowlers who left forfeit their spot and entry.
The 2 new bowlers have nothing to do with your original 10, and therefore, I bet they paid an entry and are entitled to the winnings. Your 8-10 guys did nothing to help those 2 win the doubles event. You have nothing to do with their win, but now you want a cut of something that you did nothing to get.
Best case scenario- If they did not pay to bowl (which I can't believe the tournament would let them) then they owe you the entry fee and that is IT!!
Yes, they should have paid for the spot first, but if they didn't then you are still 2 entry fees better off then you were when 2 guys QUIT!!
Take the 2 entry fees and call it square!
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Jason Jenkins
"Nothing HITS like a Hammer"
Post by: mumzie on January 08, 2004, 03:51:57 PM
If it had been your original team members that won the doubles event, that money would normally NOT be split between the rest of the team(s), unless everyone agreed to that in advance.
If I won singles or doubles in an event with team, doubles, and singles, I'd expect to keep my winnings.
I think that the guys that took the spot are being quite classy in even offering to pay back the entry fee. In my mind, that's not necessary.
Post by: T-Hob on January 08, 2004, 04:00:49 PM
Post by: The Hose on January 08, 2004, 04:28:55 PM
I just wanted to see how you guys felt about it.
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Post by: The Hose on January 08, 2004, 04:47:56 PM
You have 10 guys who bowl tournament and do a 10 way split. At the last minute, one gets sick and another has car problems. You are bolwing everything, Team, D/S all in one day and it's 10 minutes before you start your Team. You've asked a couple of people to sub but you wish for thme to pay. Finally you get someone because you don't want to take a zero. Nothing is discussed and the sub shoots 830 and your Team wins 1000 bucks becuse of his great scores. Would you give him anything? Take out the 50 dollar entry fee then plit 10 ways giving 50 bucks?
Now the same thing happens in D/S and the subs win 1000 in singles and the rest of you win nothing. HOw much should he get? Again, no agreements were made ahead of time and the sub assumed he had a FREE spot to bowl.
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Post by: The Hose on January 09, 2004, 09:49:37 AM
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Post by: jimsey on January 09, 2004, 12:08:41 PM
Team captain finds out at the last minute he's short 2 bowlers. Doesn't effect his team event only singles and doubles. He can't find subs at the last minute so he goes back to the tournament director and says he has lost 2 bowlers for the sunday squads and either rearranges his doubles assignment or merely gives up his spot. Tournament director finds 2 bowlers that want to bowl but haven't been able to get spots. If the TD had done his job correctly, he would have collected entry fees from the replacements and refunded the fees to the team captain or introduced them to the team captain and have them work out the finances. In either case, the replacements should have paid back the entry fees and maybe bought the TD, team captain, and team bowlers a beverage and called it a day.
There should be no real ABC rule for this, it should have been handled locally by the TD, team captain, and replacement bowlers. No reason for anyone to expect to profit from the performance of someone outside of their group without prior arrangements.
Post by: ksucat on January 09, 2004, 01:00:16 PM
In the future, I would like to see some kind of standard set at all tournaments that the tournament director forces the team captain and the sub to make arrangements before participating in the tournament. This is simply done when the information is obtained from the sub. The TD has a form that gives the sub the option to 1) pay back the entry fee on the spot and receive full prize money, 2) forfeit all of the prize money to the team captain and bowl for fun, 3) bowl for free and split the winnings equally. The problem with the 3rd option is that the TD likely cannot split the checks up. Another problem in this situation is that these subs will get a 1099 misc. and claim earnings on their taxes for the full amount.
I'm curious to the ABC ruling.
Post by: mrfjmt on January 09, 2004, 01:12:39 PM
quote:
If the TD had done his job correctly, he would have collected entry fees from the replacements and refunded the fees to the team captain or introduced them to the team captain and have them work out the finances.
The latter could happen, but not the former. See ABC rule #316 (no tournament entry fees refunded). The TD can't legally refund entry fees to the absent bowlers and force subs to pay for those spots. In any tournament I've ever signed up for, once you pay the entry fee, you're responsible for bowling the event or finding a sub if you can't. Additionally, any issues regarding the entry fees are settled between the absent bowler(s) and the sub(s), no one else.
quote:
In either case, the replacements should have paid back the entry fees and maybe bought the TD, team captain, and team bowlers a beverage and called it a day. There should be no real ABC rule for this, it should have been handled locally by the TD, team captain, and replacement bowlers. No reason for anyone to expect to profit from the performance of someone outside of their group without prior arrangements.
I agree, with the caveat again being that the TD can only do so much. It would be a nice gesture on the sub's part to offer to cover the entry fee, but is under no obligation to do so. Nor is the sub under any obligation to share any rightful winnings he may realize as the result of his own bowling. The sub is doing the absent bowler (and the teammates) a favor. If no one subbed, the absent bowler would absolutely lose his entry fee. A "nice" sub might be inclined to refund the entry fee to the absent bowler. In the case of a team event, if no one subbed, the team would absolutely have no chance to cash.
Post by: jimsey on January 09, 2004, 02:58:50 PM
You're right about the refund rule. Perhaps it would be better to call it a reimbursement for fees paid since the TD was acting as an "authorized representative" of the captain (rule 305d) in finding replacement bowlers. In any case, it appears that there was a severe lack of communication between the tournament director and the team captain and obviously a misunderstanding among the other bowlers involved who expected to benefit from the performance of the replacements.
If the captain had been involved correctly, he would have had to change his entry form to include the information of the replacement bowlers. If the Tournament Director accepted a separate entry form from the doubles team and the squad was not full, they would have had to have paid the entry fees to bowl in the tournament and the TD would not have been obligated to reimburse the team. I don't think it was a good policy if the TD accepted the replacement bowlers and added them to the team's existing entry unless the team captain was informed before doubles/singles event and made the correct financial adjustments.
Edited on 1/9/2004 4:08 PM