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Author Topic: This site is better then I thought  (Read 3425 times)

kidlost2000

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This site is better then I thought
« on: June 26, 2010, 04:35:52 PM »

I know this site isn''t great sometimes but it is a lot better then having someone/admin lock a thread because of fear or someone getting their feelings hurt. I doubt MO cares if I''m trying to build a MB/PSA locator since he wasn''t getting my $1300 for it any ways.

heres the link

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=747

I have another post on ballreviews under drilling where I''m posting my progress on here.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "

Edited on 6/27/2010 9:27 PM
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

 

glssmn2001

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 08:55:30 PM »
quote:

 If you build one, you're going to have to find someone who does have a Determinator in order to test and verify yours, which you'll have to do by testing literally dozens of balls in order to get a reliable sample. Otherwise, you'll never know whether yours works or not.

Jess


 This is not exactly true. When one is built, the machine does not really do anything but act like a dyno for a car. The ball will find it own PSA when spun freely. So, on a trial run all you need is an undrilled Asymetrical ball and it will migrate......
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JessN16

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2010, 09:22:41 PM »
quote:
quote:

 If you build one, you're going to have to find someone who does have a Determinator in order to test and verify yours, which you'll have to do by testing literally dozens of balls in order to get a reliable sample. Otherwise, you'll never know whether yours works or not.

Jess


 This is not exactly true. When one is built, the machine does not really do anything but act like a dyno for a car. The ball will find it own PSA when spun freely. So, on a trial run all you need is an undrilled Asymetrical ball and it will migrate......


I suppose you could be right about that, but he'd still need to test it on multiple undrilled asyms in order to get a reliable sample. And I would still test it against a known good Determinator.

The rest of the post, though, remains: He's asking someone to divulge a trade secret on an open forum.

Jess
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kidlost2000

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2010, 09:26:51 PM »
quote:
I think the overriding point here is that you were asking Mo to divulge proprietary information that went into the design and production of his machine, which he does sell for profit. Maybe you weren''t going to use whatever info he gave you to build a derivative product, but others might have and if Mo puts that information out on a public forum, he''s shooting himself in the foot.

Without talking to Paul, I think he was trying to gently stop the conversation before it got to the point where Mo himself was going to be forced to come across as rude to you. You kept pushing and Paul finally shut the conversation down. The way in which he did it, by the way, didn''t come anywhere close to d**k level, IMO.

Besides, if I''d put the kind of time into building a reliable, accurate tool like the Determinator, what is there to gain by telling someone how to build their own? If I''m trying to sell $1,300 Determinators, I want people buying my $1,300 Determinators. I don''t want there to be a bunch of homegrown products out there competing with my design.

And if it''s as difficult to do as Paul says it is, he may have been trying to save you a headache. If you build one, you''re going to have to find someone who does have a Determinator in order to test and verify yours, which you''ll have to do by testing literally dozens of balls in order to get a reliable sample. Otherwise, you''ll never know whether yours works or not.

Jess


Paul and others stated it couldn''t be done. Then he said it could, but wouldn''t be accurate and his boss or whomever made one.

He also ran his mouth about needing machined parts and if I had that access he has some work for me.

I never asked about anything of making the product until he said what he did and I asked about the rollers. I have already answered that question by other means that will not be like the ones sold by Jayhawk.

It will be a close replica of the one from the Ebonite video. My device is a PSA/MB locator, not anything else/DeTerminator. So since so many bowling manufactures have these to use and test their products it should be less offensive to anybody affiliated with Morich or Jayhawk.

My means of testing the product will be on undrilled bowling balls with MB/PSA locators from the Ebonite family

Since the Ebonite family notes that "our mass bias locations are manufactured into the core of the bowling ball. This is the reason why our balls are extremely consistent in mass bias marking. It’s because the white pin is actually a manufactured location on the ball.".

So as long as it finds the MB/PSA location already marked on these balls that I test, then I feel confident in the products ability to be accurate. I will then start checking drilled bowling balls to see how this compares to undrilled bowling balls.

I will go one step further and take back what I said about Paul. He may be a great guy, but his doubting me followed by comments about milling products and ect is what provoked it.  They have to protect the best thing they have going for the site which is Mo. Mo is very nice to answer so many peoples questions about bowling physics and so on. I also never asked Mo for anything in regards to my project.

I will remove the D&$K previously mentioned.


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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "

Edited on 6/27/2010 9:29 PM
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

luckyxxx

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2010, 10:38:54 PM »
Your plan to use undrilled Ebonite family balls will not necessarily prove your machine works or not. Drilled a 505A & a pure swing a couple of months ago-the marked MB was wrong on both-1 off to the left the other to the right-as determined by Mo's machine. I am not for or against you building your own, but I do agree with the earlier post made about comparing it to the real thing to verify accurate results.
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kidlost2000

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2010, 11:19:48 PM »
If there was one in my area I would do a comparison. There isn't. My only way to test will be on undrilled bowling balls with PSA/MB. If it works well on a high percentage of those I will consider it a success.


I also haven't seen many other post where people have said they had one. It was a curiosity of mine as to the number that may be out there based on this site.

It will be a fun project. I have everything to gain in the experiment/project so I don't mind the other replies.

--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 02:06:18 AM »
In reference to BowlingChat/MegaMav I have no concern or questions of you locking the topic. You can choose to delete it if you choose.

I already took back what I said of Paul out of anger. No matter how you see it he was being a smart @ss in reference to me attempting to build this and in his responses prior to his locking the thread.

 I'm sure there are many knowledgeable people in the industry that contribute but Mo Pinels post is the only reason I went to the site. I didn't pay attention to the column the first post was under and moved my other post into the other section. The site is limited on sections to put things.


I will continue this through to success one way or another. I have no doubt since so many other companies have their own that they use to test product it is in no way impossible to make.

Let Paul know it will be posted one way or another good, bad, or ugly. I'm leaning more towards the good then the bad or ugly.  If it fails it will still be posted.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

khamûl

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2010, 06:30:50 PM »
quote:
It's been a long time, but somebody was selling something similar to the determinator - I believe it was on ebay.  


There was a gentleman in FLorida that marketed on made of MDF, roller bearings and a two phase motor with a rheostat starting mechanism.  $200 to $300 in materials (or more) depending on how fancy a motor you wanted.  It would find a psa until the bearings tore out of the wood.  It was difficult/impossible to find accurate 60 degree spin times due to the rheostat starting system.  He lasted about 6 months on ebay about 10 years ago selling step by step instructions.

Ebonite has had theirs for almost 20 years now, that thing is a brick sh!t-house.  Storm, Brunswick & 900 Global purchased de-terminators as it is cheaper to purchase a ready made solution that is durable that re-engineer ebonite's beast.
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good luck and good bowling.

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purduepaul

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2010, 10:55:27 PM »
You know I read this site as well, years ago I started here as just another engineering student who had an interest in bowling.  Six years later, I received my MS in Mechanical Engineering from Purdue and became a research engineer for USBC.

My job on the other site is to be a moderator.  As part of that job, I am looking out for the site's best interest.  It's my opinion that I am not going to upset a major contributor to the site, Mo Pinel.  I felt by trying to gather advice on how to build a homemade one or saying that you think its easy, that you are undermining a serious contributor of that site.  

My hope by giving you some advice on the difficulty of the device was just to get you to think about it a little bit harder.  Obviously, that didn't work and you thought I was a smart*** in the process.  I've dealt with PLENTY of people in this industry that think they can do anything.  Unfortunately, I have a sense of realism in this industry and have been in the trenches and seen the time/money/effort it takes to accomplish projects like yours.  It was friendly advice.

I'm being super nice about this.  Good luck to you in your project, please do not post about it on the other site again.

Paul
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy."  -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy."  -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"

kidlost2000

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2010, 06:59:14 AM »
I won''t have to post on there you will be able to find it here.


"Unless you have a CNC Machine in your house or garage, it will cost you a pretty penny. and if you do I need some small parts machined as well for a side project. Thanks"

Any fabrication shop could do that for you. As you say, save your pennies and they would be more then happy too.




--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t

Edited on 6/30/2010 7:08 AM

Edited on 6/30/2010 7:11 AM
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

kidlost2000

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Re: This site is better then I thought
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2010, 07:07:07 AM »
I will use MDF as the base, and the pillow block bushings that support the two rollers will mount to wood for trial and error.

Once everything is tested and working to the point I would want to do a final model I will go with steel.

I have access to a fabrication shop that will have everything needed for a final full use product. Since that will only be needed for the base and the two support arms for the rollers it isn't that big of a deal. That can be done with scraps that are available.


quote:
quote:
It's been a long time, but somebody was selling something similar to the determinator - I believe it was on ebay.  


There was a gentleman in FLorida that marketed on made of MDF, roller bearings and a two phase motor with a rheostat starting mechanism.  $200 to $300 in materials (or more) depending on how fancy a motor you wanted.  It would find a psa until the bearings tore out of the wood.  It was difficult/impossible to find accurate 60 degree spin times due to the rheostat starting system.  He lasted about 6 months on ebay about 10 years ago selling step by step instructions.

Ebonite has had theirs for almost 20 years now, that thing is a brick sh!t-house.  Storm, Brunswick & 900 Global purchased de-terminators as it is cheaper to purchase a ready made solution that is durable that re-engineer ebonite's beast.
--------------------
good luck and good bowling.


--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Logged
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.
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