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Author Topic: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League  (Read 3811 times)

Sir Bowl-A-Lot

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Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« on: April 07, 2009, 12:28:42 AM »
My local house is thinking about changing our current Tuesday Men's League (which is standard USBC sanctioned) to a USBC PBA Experience/Sport League.  However, they are not going to certify the lanes so that it is a true PBA Experience/Sport League (therefore, one cannot qualify for the special awards).  Instead they will just use the PBA oil patterns versus the typical house shot.  What are your thoughts and feelings about them doing this?

Edited on 4/7/2009 8:30 AM
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cheech

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 10:58:58 PM »
quote:
quote:
i dont see why people are complaining that PBA leagues distort averages for tournaments. if your good enough for sport/PBA leagues than your probably good enough for scratch tournaments on house shots.


I don't know how it is at other centers/areas, but at our house, most of the bowlers in the sport/PBA Exp league are below scratch average.  Out of 18 bowlers, only four are 200+ on THS.  If the sport league was going to be only for 200+ average bowlers, we would never have a sport league because most of them do not want to see their average below 200 and we wouldn't have enough bowlers to field a league.

Many bowlers of all average ability bowl in a sport league because it gives them instant feedback of any errant shots they make, unlike THS which sometimes rewards bowlers for bad shots.  With this feedback, they can work on trying to be more consistant more often (repeatability) and that will hopefully help them to become better at their game.  

Others know that the lanes will be more difficult but they want the challenge of having to play different lines/releases/ball choices other than what they are used to using, in order to keep the ball in play and finding out how important a good spare game can be when it is that much more difficult to string strikes.




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i have never seen that before. pretty much any sport league of any kind is bowled by people that average at least 200-210 on house shots and are bored with it. there are really very few that average any lower. most of the sport averages are actually close to scratch average (based on 200). and you talked about 18 people in a league? thats a very small league all our sport leagues have 20-30+ people. not criticizing just thinking out loud
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Atochabsh

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 11:55:49 PM »
quote:
i have never seen that before. pretty much any sport league of any kind is bowled by people that average at least 200-210 on house shots and are bored with it.


Not in our area.  The very first Sport league I joined was the first year it was available.  It was a trios scratch.  And we had competative bowlers.  Now its handicapped, no prize fund to let the juniors bowl etc......  Just not of interest anymore to the higher average bowlers.  They can bowl regional tournaments and other sport pattern touranaments if they want.   Without buying the Sport Card.

Erin
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2009, 02:47:11 AM »
quote:
i have never seen that before. pretty much any sport league of any kind is bowled by people that average at least 200-210 on house shots and are bored with it. there are really very few that average any lower. most of the sport averages are actually close to scratch average (based on 200). and you talked about 18 people in a league? thats a very small league all our sport leagues have 20-30+ people. not criticizing just thinking out loud


Not around here.  In the four years I have bowled in sport leagues, it has mostly been composed of 170-190 (THS) average bowlers but we do have some who average lower.  The leagues have been singles and handicapped the last few years because of low participation.  In the mens' league, there are 45 bowlers who average 200 or over and four of them are participating in the sport league.  The 18 members currently participating is probably the most we have ever had with sanctioned sport conditions.



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another300

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2009, 11:58:30 AM »
quote:
You miss my point. What i am saying is if you don't sanction it as a Sport league, then don't sanction it. If you don't sanction it as a sport league but sanction it USBC, then it goes in the book like a THS league. But naturally your average would be lower. Therefore when you enter a tourney using a PBA X league average (because it looks like a regular USBC avg) then you are cheating


If the shot is still USBC approved then how is it cheating? So you are saying the same of people bowling in old wood lanes?  Those are usually tougher but the shot is USBC approved.
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los2003

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2009, 12:23:02 PM »
well most people that bowl in sport leagues also bowl in other leagues so the  lower average wouldn't matter because you always have to use the higher one.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2009, 12:34:03 PM »
quote:
quote:
quote:
You miss my point. What i am saying is if you don't sanction it as a Sport league, then don't sanction it. If you don't sanction it as a sport league but sanction it USBC, then it goes in the book like a THS league. But naturally your average would be lower. Therefore when you enter a tourney using a PBA X league average (because it looks like a regular USBC avg) then you are cheating


If the shot is still USBC approved then how is it cheating? So you are saying the same of people bowling in old wood lanes?  Those are usually tougher but the shot is USBC approved.


I think it's hard for some of you to understand simple things.  If a person bowls in a sport league that is not sanctioned as a sport league, the individual's average will not be comparable to someone who bowls on a THS.  It could become an issue if this individual bowls in a tournament where handicap is used or in the Nationals in the "classified" division.  It's not about it being USBC approved or sanctioned, it's about it not being sanctioned as a sport league.  Handicaps are used to make the competition in the sport more fair not less fair.


I think what is trying to be conveyed is as long as the shot is USBC compliant, then it doesn't matter the shape of the shot.  Some centers are naturally more difficult than others.  I have bowled in some centers where my average on their "house" shot was LOWER than my sport shot average in a higher scoring house.  Not all centers have new machines that can oil each board separately or even strip and oil.  I managed a house not long ago that was still "dragging" the lanes and oiling every day and stripping the lanes twice a week by hand.  

I understand one could be worried that someone bowling on a sport shot has an unfair advantage if it isn't reported as a sport shot.  But how many people ONLY bowl in a sport shot league?  Plus, most sport shot leagues I have seen are during the summer where most times the averages aren't used anyway.
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another300

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2009, 12:35:19 PM »
quote:
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quote:
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You miss my point. What i am saying is if you don't sanction it as a Sport league, then don't sanction it. If you don't sanction it as a sport league but sanction it USBC, then it goes in the book like a THS league. But naturally your average would be lower. Therefore when you enter a tourney using a PBA X league average (because it looks like a regular USBC avg) then you are cheating
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If the shot is still USBC approved then how is it cheating? So you are saying the same of people bowling in old wood lanes? Those are usually tougher but the shot is USBC approved.


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I think it's hard for some of you to understand simple things. If a person bowls in a sport league that is not sanctioned as a sport league, the individual's average will not be comparable to someone who bowls on a THS. It could become an issue if this individual bowls in a tournament where handicap is used or in the Nationals in the "classified" division. It's not about it being USBC approved or sanctioned, it's about it not being sanctioned as a sport league. Handicaps are used to make the competition in the sport more fair not less fair.
 


This c r a p was never an issue when ABC/USBC actually verified lanes.  Almost all houses were the same.  Occasionally you would find a house that was tougher.  USBC allowed the Wall of China shots to be put down and they consider them legal.  They also consider a very difficult shot legal. For the problem to be fixed, USBC needs to have better criteria identifying "sport" or tougher conditions and Wall of China USBC approved conditions.  Until then, a center can put down any difficult shot they want and it will still be legal.

Kinda funny, it's now going in reverse.  People used to migrate to easier houses or push for easier conditions.  Now people are wanting to play on tougher conditions (not sport but still USBC approved) so they can gain an advantage. Agree or not, it's still legal.
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Krakken

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2009, 03:54:40 PM »
quote:
quote:
You miss my point. What i am saying is if you don't sanction it as a Sport league, then don't sanction it. If you don't sanction it as a sport league but sanction it USBC, then it goes in the book like a THS league. But naturally your average would be lower. Therefore when you enter a tourney using a PBA X league average (because it looks like a regular USBC avg) then you are cheating


If the shot is still USBC approved then how is it cheating? So you are saying the same of people bowling in old wood lanes?  Those are usually tougher but the shot is USBC approved.


Maybe cheating isn't a great word but it is definitely unfair to bowlers who bowl on a THS.  Of course ceneter to center there will be differences.  Some are a harder, some are easier, but they are at least close.

You could actually have someone that averages 200 on a THS end up in the classified division at the USBC if that is their only league.  

Is that fair?

I have guys in my PBA X league that are 25 - 30 pins below their THS league.  Give them and extra 18-25 pins in a tourney because of the sanction.  IS that fair.
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DavidKSNK

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2009, 08:40:40 AM »
quote:
Quote
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This c r a p was never an issue when ABC/USBC actually verified lanes.  Almost all houses were the same.  Occasionally you would find a house that was tougher.  USBC allowed the Wall of China shots to be put down and they consider them legal.  They also consider a very difficult shot legal. For the problem to be fixed, USBC needs to have better criteria identifying "sport" or tougher conditions and Wall of China USBC approved conditions.  Until then, a center can put down any difficult shot they want and it will still be legal.

Kinda funny, it's now going in reverse.  People used to migrate to easier houses or push for easier conditions.  Now people are wanting to play on tougher conditions (not sport but still USBC approved) so they can gain an advantage. Agree or not, it's still legal.


Attendance in PBAX leagues is dropping in most places.

You might get a decent turnout for a summer PBAX League because it's not as long as a winter season. But the reality hits people in the face when they realize their equipment that was drilled for house patterns no longer works so well on the PBA/sport patterns. Most people have no interest in drilling up new equipment just so they can match up properly to these patterns.
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AngloBowler

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Re: Thoughts/feelings on PBA Experience/Sport League
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2009, 10:19:39 AM »
quote:
If a person bowls in a sport league that is not sanctioned as a sport league, the individual's average will not be comparable to someone who bowls on a THS


Some people have highlighted the unfairness of the situation, however, most bowlers don't have any control over what oil pattern is laid out for their league, nor whether or not it is sanctioned. If someone bowls on a sport compliant (but not sport sanctioned) condition, then it's incumbent on them when they use that average to tell the tournament organiser that that was the intention of the league they bowled the average in.

The tournament official is then free to do with that information what he or she wishes. That's the only way to avoid misrepresenting the average in this situation.

If a bowler is not doing this then they're cheating.

Why isn't there an additional sanction available for shots which are intended to be sport compliant but are unverified (due to lack of equipment or whatever)?
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