BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: avabob on May 01, 2018, 03:28:02 PM
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1. If you can't play anywhere from the gutter to 4th arrow, having a big arsenal won't help you
2. If you can't hit the pocket with every ball in your bag on most conditions, balance holes aren't going to help you
3. Taking 4 or 5 balls to league on a house shot is like taking 14 clubs to a pitch and putt
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All true, but as a society we've trained our brains to get satisfaction out of complaining.
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1. If you can't play anywhere from the gutter to 4th arrow, having a big arsenal won't help you
2. If you can't hit the pocket with every ball in your bag on most conditions, balance holes aren't going to help you
3. Taking 4 or 5 balls to league on a house shot is like taking 14 clubs to a pitch and putt
I would like you to amend #1. It should read:
If you cannot play multiple zones on the lane, having a big arsenal won't help you.
Most lefties are not playing inside 4th arrow on today's conditions...
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3. Taking 4 or 5 balls to league on a house shot is like taking 14 clubs to a pitch and putt
Perhaps in YOUR league in YOUR house, but otherwise a very broad statement that is just incorrect for a lot of us.
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I'm not sure i still have a 2-ball bag. I have a 3 ball for flights and a 4 ball for local tournaments. Maybe I will invest in a 2-ball.
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See number 1 above.
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1. If you can't play anywhere from the gutter to 4th arrow, having a big arsenal won't help you
2. If you can't hit the pocket with every ball in your bag on most conditions, balance holes aren't going to help you
3. Taking 4 or 5 balls to league on a house shot is like taking 14 clubs to a pitch and putt
3. Is relative to the house. Until you bowl on a bipolar house shot with cheap oil.
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If I can't handle a house shot with my Venom Shock, Hy-Road and a spare ball (Ogre Urethane usually) then I am probably screwed anyway no matter which other balls I bring. Might not be true for everyone though as some people I guess need to more fine tune their carry.
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See number 1 above. Not talking about sport shots. If the house shot is slick, move right and square up. If they are hooking move in. D
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You can always adjust to do just well enough and close to par, but if you're trying to make money, while you're grinding your way to 205, someone else is going to have that match up for a 260 look on every type of condition in any house. Part of being a "great" bowler in today's modern game is sound understanding of your equipment in relation to what's out there on the lanes.
It doesn't mean you have to bring 6-8 balls to league. As a matter of fact, I see guys bring 6-8 balls to league all the time, and they only throw the newest ball they have even if it doesn't work. But the truth of the matter is, what's going to take you from shooting 230-240 to shooting 279 and making $300-500 in a league night, unfortunately is going to be proper ball matchup in some cases.
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Naw, naw, don't even bring a ball. Just take one off the rack and adjust your feet...
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Hack: I have said a hundred times that if my roll matches up I can probably score with any ball in my bag. If it doesn't I could drill out the whole pro shop and not carry. Sounds like we are of similar minds
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I take about 6 balls, including my spare ball to tournaments. Different world than house shots and league
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Only caveat being I tend towards versatile release friendly symmetrical equipment for my house shot league as opposed to the very best piece for certain conditions as in a different league skill wise to many in this thread (plus deal with less transition). Just saying I can perhaps see why some people bring more balls especially as said above spares aren't going to get job the done but not my world.
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So I go to these boards for information, some entertainment, and just to kill some time. So this thread sure did not disappoint and I always enjoy getting bowling knowledge from multi PBA champion avabob. So my 3 responses to his "beliefs" are below.
1. Well if this genius states it and puts in on the internet it must be true. Thanks for the great insight.
2. Damn I thought it was the magic hole. So it's a balance hole and it's not going to help me? Thanks for the great insight.
3. What the F is pitch and putt? And why can't I take my 14 clubs. But again thanks for the great insight.
Oh in the words of the great philospher, Tripper:
IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER
IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER
IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER
1. If you can't play anywhere from the gutter to 4th arrow, having a big arsenal won't help you
2. If you can't hit the pocket with every ball in your bag on most conditions, balance holes aren't going to help you
3. Taking 4 or 5 balls to league on a house shot is like taking 14 clubs to a pitch and putt
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Never won a PBA event, never been a member
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So sad when some players always have the same shot in their home house. The house I bowl in never has the same condition every night is different.So different balls are needed by me. House shot or not it is never the same. Why does any player care how many balls I bring in I can only use one at a time. How many I own is only my business. Just bowl your best when you bowl and forget the other players personal equipment.
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Hack: I have said a hundred times that if my roll matches up I can probably score with any ball in my bag. If it doesn't I could drill out the whole pro shop and not carry. Sounds like we are of similar minds
Can you provide some further insight on this? I'm not on the train of just ball changing to fix every problem or something like that, but sometimes it seems necessary to get the job done in my scratch league. Probably just not good enough with tricks on roll or something. Try to roll it more usually makes it roll too heavy expanding to much energy and resulting in a flat 10, adjusting axis rotation works relatively well until I have to guess the amount to move and change it again every other frame, and I can't change my tilt enough to where carry changes a ton. I can generate different rolls and get there a bit differently, but doesn't solve carry issues. Definitely don't want to have to be perfect to carry when I need 240 at times to beat them.
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Also, I promise I'm not trying to sound like a jerk. Most cases, I only throw 2 balls anyways. But there have been times when I needed something a bit quicker than my usual transition ball and others when I needed my cliff killer for the transition because nothing hooked unless it hit right of 4 downlane, the insides were super tight resulting in most balls not carrying from too long of a skid phase, and hitting right of 4 was only possible if you could hit the one board every time while still managing the moves. Anyone that didn't have a cliff killer that day shot under 175 in game 3.
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I bowl two leagues in the fall.
One is a first shift league with poor sidepots that I don’t bother entering. I tend to bring 2 + spare to this league. I’ll bring a couple more the first few weeks just in case they change the shot year to year, but otherwise it rarely changes.
The other is a second shift league follows either a men’s league or women’s league, depending on which lane you’re on. Sidepots are huge, and the investment in them are high. I’ll bring 5+spare to this league, and I’m glad I do. I still have a couple primary balls that TEND to roll well there, but my secondary balls have won me plenty of money.
Point is, as others have mentioned, #3 is VERY league and bowler specific.
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:o Really? ;)
I'm sure you are great bowler but speaking in generalities and what you believe is fine for you but why talk down to other bowlers who do things you don't? I bowl to have a good time and hope every who bowls has a good time. I like to win pots, win games, etc. and I don't want to lose because I left a ball home that could have given me a better shape to carry the corner. I bowl with the nicest old timers (great bowlers for their ages) who break chops on me when I bring my "arsenal" all in fun and every time I answer why "because I bought them" and then offer to carry their balls too!
Never won a PBA event, never been a member
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To avabob's credit he did title this thread "Three things I believe". He did not label it "Three indisputable truths".
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The league I bowled the past two years just ran a 15-20ft head shot on whatever was leftover from the morning's senior leagues and open play. With it being a 60 lane center, 60 teams, depending on your lane assignments you got one of the following shots:
1- Pairs that haven't been bowled on for a day. So they have twice the load in the front and the normal house shot after that so it plays extremely slick with not much help if you miss right.
2- The 16 lanes that the senior leaguers bowl on at the high end of the house that is a 15 ft flood in the heads with normally a dry track area from the older guys throwing surface, and a lot of hold inside from their wives throwing plastic up the middle. The teams that bowl on these pairs always shoot the lights out from benefit of the extra hold in the middle and extra burn between 1st-2nd arrow
3- The middle of the house pairs where the center places all of the open play bowlers throwing plastic everywhere. After they flood the heads prior to league these pairs often have a very squirrely reaction. Not to mention actually hitting the pins and watching them slide around upright due to all of the oil carrying down to the pin deck. Makes for lots of flat 7s (for righties), flat 10s (for lefties), 8-10, 7-9, & 7-10 combinations period.
4- A mix of any of the above. I've had weeks where I was literally standing 40 with an old Puma on the left lane and standing 16 with 1000-2000 grit assymetricals on the right lane to keep pocket.
The "look" you had in this league was strictly dependent on your lane assignment or if anyone touched your pair within the past 12 hours since they only strip the lanes at 7am. I never had a gripe with guys bringing 6-8 balls in this league mainly because
1- What they choose to do with their own money & equipment doesn't affect me.
and
2- If you want to be competitive in the brackets, high game, survival boards you needed to have options as lane to lane there can be drastic differences.
Not every house shot has a perfect shim in the middle and unlimited miss room right. Some can actually be hell. Last time I checked, Mike Fagan was 2nd high average in that league of 60 teams around 211 ish. Hardly your typical house shot.
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To avabob's credit he did title this thread "Three things I believe". He did not label it "Three indisputable truths".
Anything posted on a message board is open for debate, whether you call it belief, opinion, fact, or anything else. I’m glad he shared his thoughts, I’m also glad other people shared theirs. Debate is good, as long as it’s civil.
His 3 things really all roll up to 1 thing: If you’re valuing equipment over skill, you’re overthinking bowling. I don’t necessarily agree with all of his bullet points, but I definitely agree with that basic theme.
Getting to the pocket is easy on THS. Maintaining a high average is easy on THS. Scoring high relative to everyone in the field is NOT easy. When there are 35 210+ average bowlers in a high game jackpot on THS, just throwing the ball well may not get me that jackpot. Match up is important.
That doesn’t mean you have to make it complicated. I made it overly complicated for myself for a long time. Now I have my own things I believe:
1. If you buy a ball just to try a layout with 5* less Of a VAL angle, you’re overthinking it.
2. If you have so many balls that you can’t decide what to bring to a tournament, you’re overthinking it.
3. If your arsenal doesn’t have a pretty logical progression to it, you’re overthinking it. I prefer a progression of shape rather than strength, but to each their own.
4. Using trick layouts to make a condition specific ball will usually lead to a ball you never actually bring with you anywhere.
All of those roll up to the same theme as avabob, but he may disagree with some of my bullet points as well.
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Come on now, just reread #3. Just use a house ball and move your feet.
Otherwise, your taking bowling balls to a golf tournament.
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I didn't mean to offend anyone who enjoys using a large array of equipment, or someone who is bowling league for the fun of it and not really trying to evolve their game.
For people who are playing the game as a sport, and are trying to challenge themselves to get better, the beliefs I expressed could have some value.
I probably should have added one more belief. I think 80% of ball reaction is determined by your release, not by the core and surface of the ball.
League bowlers have overwhelmingly wanted consistency in conditions for as long as I can remember. Nothing wring with that, but typically they have always been disappointed. It has only been the last 20 years or so that ball technology has given bowlers the hope of being able stay in their comfort zone using an arsenal. Unfortunately it is a false hope. Being able to make rapid large moves is necessary even on house shots, and is more effective than going through a huge arsenal of equipment
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We all understand your opinion. Ok we get it ! What I want to know is why you care so much how many balls some brings ? I bowl on mixed leagues men's leagues, senior leagues and travel leagues some on wood and some on synthetic lanes. And guess what I have lots of different bowling balls. And it is because I can !!
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Badbeard, understand ONE thing here; Anybody can BRING as many as they desire to, BUT UNTIL A BOWLER CAN ADAPT TO HAND, SPEED, ROTATION,TILT, TRANSITION, AND ALL OF THE necessary adjustments, Your game will NEVER evolve.
That's what avabob is also partially referring to, and I agree; I had to learn the HARD WAY.
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Ever since I've REDUCED my arsenal and primarly focuses mostly on all of the Dynamics of the game first, and understand how to use all of what I have to compliment my game, it's easy sailing.
Doesn't matter if I bring 1, 2, or 8, all about versatility and adjustments first, but again to each their iwn.
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ok ok I believe the pro's have won here. I will learn everything I need to bowl with one ball no matter the condition. And I promise not to buy any more bowling balls. NOT !!!
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ok ok I believe the pro's have won here. I will learn everything I need to bowl with one ball no matter the condition. And I promise not to buy any more bowling balls. NOT !!!
Just make sure you don’t alter the surface during competition.
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Ever since I've REDUCED my arsenal and primarly focuses mostly on all of the Dynamics of the game first, and understand how to use all of what I have to compliment my game, it's easy sailing.
Doesn't matter if I bring 1, 2, or 8, all about versatility and adjustments first, but again to each their iwn.
I tend to use one ball during a league session, sometimes I will change later in the set to a second ball after the transition, but usually not though. During shadow is where I decide which ball is best suited for the conditions that day.
I take four "strike" balls plus a spare(plastic). Why? Because I have a four ball bag and it's no more of a pain in ass to take 2,3 or 4 since the bag holds four anyway. Then I have a single ball bag I use exclusively for my spare ball and it always goes with me. So since I have the ability to carry 5 balls, I take five balls. I almost never use more than two and the spare, but it's not the same two every league session. The ball I use as a first(or strike) ball is determined during shadow and at least where I bowl, you don't know what the condition that day will require.
Of course, I can "refer to #3" and bring only my plastic spare ball(or just use a house ball, since the ability to adjust is the only thing that matters anyway) and move my feet, but then my shoes are in the four ball roller at home because they won't fit in the single ball bag and I don't have a locker at the alley and there is no way in hell I'm going to wear the house shoes.
And before someone gets all preachy on me and starts yammering on about using urethane for 10 pins or flattening out on release, etc, etc. Save your breath(or keyboard), because I don't give a rats ass, you do you, I'll use my plastic spare ball, which I use for more than just the 10 pin.
So screw it, I'll take my five balls and not give a damn about what someone else thinks. :o ;D
Rant to be continued if necessary. 8)
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Good points across the board on this topic; It just makes sense to carry a fair amount of equipment no matter the condition, or otherwise..... I BRING 3+ spare ball everywhere I go personally.
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I'll say it again. It depends on the house I'm bowling at. For a house shot around here, I'll take my Drift and Dream On to one, and my X and Black Ops to the other. Booyah goes to both. If I'm traveling to a house I'm unfamiliar with, my options increase. Don't know the topography? Don't know the volume or length? Bring them all and keep some in the car.
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I'll say it again. It depends on the house I'm bowling at. For a house shot around here, I'll take my Drift and Dream On to one, and my X and Black Ops to the other. Booyah goes to both. If I'm traveling to a house I'm unfamiliar with, my options increase. Don't know the topography? Don't know the volume or length? Bring them all and keep some in the car.
But...but...but...it's just a house shot. Refer to rule #3. ;D
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I'll say it again. It depends on the house I'm bowling at. For a house shot around here, I'll take my Drift and Dream On to one, and my X and Black Ops to the other. Booyah goes to both. If I'm traveling to a house I'm unfamiliar with, my options increase. Don't know the topography? Don't know the volume or length? Bring them all and keep some in the car.
But...but...but...it's just a house shot. Refer to rule #3. ;D
Well, I did use my Booyah last night at practice on the fresh house shot. Does that matter?
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I'm pretty much in avabob's camp but using equipment for adjustments is another skill set.
But when you try to use equipment to stay on your favorite line when the shot is not there but elsewhere on the lane is a recipe for lower scores than possible. You need to play the sweet spot on the lanes.
If I have a good line to the pocket with carry I seldom will switch balls, I'll simply chase the oil line.
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Bob,
What you say genre rings true to me. Ultimately, you can’t make up but so much lack of skills using equipment.
For those that can adjust their release and repeat shots, they don’t need 6 balls on a THS. But those who can’t definitely benefit from a wide range of equipment if they understand when and how to use it.
On the other hand, on a tough shot, where you have to be able to repeat shots, all the equipment in the world will not help the sprayers. The funny thing is that they always seem to be able to cast blame on someone or something else for their inability to score.
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Three things I believe:
1- avabob makes some good points.
2- Not everyone will agree (or disagree) because we bowl on a huge variety of conditions. We can only learn firsthand on the conditions we personally bowl.
3- It's okay. This is just bowling. You can learn from others' experience if you want, or criticize them and learn on your own through the school of hard knocks.
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I agree with Milo. I have a four ball bag and I carry a solid, hybrid, and a pearl all with different specs. and cover strength; plus a spare ball. Sometimes I have to use one or more because of the inconsistent house shot we face each week. I make adjustments throughout the night until I get out of my comfort zone, then and only then do I change balls. When I do have to change, I'm glad I have the option available. So for me so much for Rule #3!
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What I was trying to say is that an arsenal is of much less use if you can't adjust on the lanes. A 6 ball arsenal is of little use if the oil is at 15, and you want to play 10. I take 2 balls to my house shot league unless I want to experiment with something.
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The last point is perhaps the biggest point this post was intended for. I am guilty as well for this post being misinterpreted a bit. I am very sorry for that. But this was more so aimed at the people who don't want to zone change, change their target, adjust speeds, etc. This wasn't meant to devalue the skill of knowing when/how to ball change. If you're going through 5 balls a night, there is a good chance thst you're not giving yourself much of a chance to score in the first place and/or your decision making needs to improve.
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What I was trying to say is that an arsenal is of much less use if you can't adjust on the lanes. A 6 ball arsenal is of little use if the oil is at 15, and you want to play 10. I take 2 balls to my house shot league unless I want to experiment with something.
STOP.
JUST STOP.
You have made the grand mistake of offering your opinions, no matter how logical or well thought out, to those who would seek to disagree.
You cannot change them, nor can you convince them of your honesty, sincerity, clarity of thought, or insight.
Divest yourself immediately from this unattainable quest of sharing your experience, wisdom, and knowledge of things with those who imagine themselves to be the righteous gatekeepers of all that is knowable and relevant.
They have drunken the magical kool-aid of omnipotence, and no longer need the renderings of mere mortals who would seek to encroach upon their realm of exclusivity.
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
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2handed and juggernaut absolutely nailed it, my same exact thoughts; Let them use their 6-8 balls all over the place and still can't reach the pocket, while us knowledgeable bowlers (regardless how many we bring) play where the shit allows, and make our proper adjustments first and continue to score our lights out (ball change is the last resort) and they can stay in no man's land and bitch and complain. ;D
Who's the dummy now?
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There's a phrase in poker "Don't tap the tank.". Meaning, that if you have inexperienced/bad players that you're up against, don't scare (the fish) away by poking at them. Make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and reap the reward of your experience profiting off of their mistakes.
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To the bowlers who make money, let's treat our customers kindly and with a smile.
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2handed and juggernaut absolutely nailed it, my same exact thoughts; Let them use their 6-8 balls all over the place and still can't reach the pocket, while us knowledgeable bowlers (regardless how many we bring) play where the shit allows, and make our proper adjustments first and continue to score our lights out (ball change is the last resort) and they can stay in no man's land and bitch and complain. ;D
Who's the dummy now?
What I bolded in your response above is what's key to some of the pushback here. Playing the sweet spot is a given. But sometimes you need more than one alternative to get the right hook shape and entry angle to keep from pinging 7's and 10's all night.
The other night was a perfect example for me. The 2 balls I use 90% of the time weren't carrying the corners during warmup. Changes in speed, line and release weren't fixing things. I tried one of the other 3 I that I bring (and rarely use) and I began striking with confidence.
I ended up shooting a solid 730. If I had gone with avabob's assertion that sometimes you won't carry no mater what, I would have probably grinded out a subpar 620-650. No thanks.
It's just a topic. Healthy inquisition and debate is good. Shutting that down benefits nobody.
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I meant as preparing to make physical adjustments before equipment changes as you PLAY what the lanes give you, OR whatever adjustments you have to make in any reguard sir.
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Playing the sweet spot is anything but a “given.â€
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Perhaps #3 should be edited. I concede that it applies to the authors home house. But it doesn't apply to some of us who don't have the luxury of having a consistent shot when league starts.
Otherwise, I still say if the "correct" ball for the condition doesn't matter, why bring ANY balls to league, just take one off the rack and make your adjustments.
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Perhaps #3 should be edited. I concede that it applies to the authors home house. But it doesn't apply to some of us who don't have the luxury of having a consistent shot when league starts.
Otherwise, I still say if the "correct" ball for the condition doesn't matter, why bring ANY balls to league, just take one off the rack and make your adjustments.
Agreed. My home house has little consistency from one week to the next. I bowl on second shift THS. Besides the challenge of old lane beds and outside weather impacts, there is the wild card of following a mixed handicap league where the oil is randomly depleted and otherwise pushed all over the place. I can't assume much at all.
In that world, it's better to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
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Playing the sweet spot is anything but a “given.â€
I think of the "sweet spot" as the area that gives me the best opportunity to strike. It doesn't necessarily mean a guarantee of high scores. Sometimes the sweet spot is a grind, but it's usually there.
Why is playing it not a given??
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Nobody is once again disagreeing with you both; Your just regurgitating what the original post was about... it's always good to be prepared for any condition no matter how prepared you are. That's the beauty of this game.
If you need just urethane and can adjust in all ways, great; If you need a 4-6 ball Arsenal with changing condituons8, that's great as well. At the end of the day, having having proper mechanics, bring able to adjust, and having a open Arsenal = bring prepared no matter the shot/condition.
We're all on the same page now, let's enjoy what the shot gives us, and go from there.... ;)