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Author Topic: Thumb down on non bowling arm.  (Read 13415 times)

Impending Doom

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Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« on: November 08, 2014, 08:25:18 AM »
I've been working a lot with trying to keep the thumb down on my left hand to minimize shoulder rotation. I find that when I execute properly, the swing feels effortless, from the shoulder, I don't pick my head up, and the ball reads the lane like a dream (not the ball lol).

My issue is trying to get the hand to rotate from thumb up while holding the ball in the stance to thumb down. Almost like my non bowling hand doesn't know when to do it. I know it should probably be down by the time the ball passes the leg on the downswing, but I either do it immediately (which makes my shoulders not move at all) or too late (which negates the movement.)

Should I just do a foul line drill with the non bowling arm in position and then feel it that way, or does someone else have any suggestions. I feel like this step will be the next breakthrough in my game.

 

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2014, 08:34:49 AM »
You're trying to do something that is not natural...so I'm not sure there's a correct answer in you trying to reprogram your swing...
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2014, 08:45:31 AM »
The "thumb down" is not to minimize shoulder rotation as you are trying to make it.  It is to allow the left arm to extend and the right shoulder to open.  It sounds like you are trying to go about something the wrong way. 

Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2014, 09:37:25 AM »
The "thumb down" is not to minimize shoulder rotation as you are trying to make it.  It is to allow the left arm to extend and the right shoulder to open.  It sounds like you are trying to go about something the wrong way. 

Well, closing my shoulder too fast is a problem since I am a small guy. What would you recommend instead?

Ric, I'm surprised to see you say that. Is it natural for top pros to do it?

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2014, 09:41:42 AM »
When you see an elite player doing something, more times than not it is quite natural to them and other players try to emulate...each individual's body, stature and interaction is different in how the body reacts to any athletic endeavour...
If you are closing your release shoulder then more than likely it is a timing issue and you are pulling the bowling ball through...swinging the ball from your shoulder should eliminate the muscling of the ball as well as making sure it is in the proper position in the approach
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Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2014, 09:47:53 AM »
When I can get the thumb down and keep my shoulders from closing too fast, its awesome. When I keep my thumb up, there is too much shoulder movement, IMO. My timing probably does suck (not too proud to say it), but the thumb down does give me the appearance of more leverage with little change in my game. I'm going to go see my coach soon, so we can work on it.I just figure that if it works for elite players, maybe a burger like me could utilize it lol.

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2014, 09:52:16 AM »
I would never discourage anyone from trying to improve their games and trying what the pros do is never a bad thing....just understand whether it works for you or not...and it could be a band aid in its effect on your game
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2014, 10:03:55 AM »
My whole game needs more than a band aid. It needs a body cast and a medically induced coma.

It's years of muscle memory from trying to get "more" on the ball. I've neglected my game in that I haven't seen a coach in over 10 years and I need to.

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2014, 10:08:08 AM »
'My whole game needs more than a band aid. It needs a body cast and a medically induced coma' classic
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2014, 11:36:04 AM »
Just being honest!

bergman

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2014, 11:53:42 AM »
It is true that what works for one may not work for somebody else. However, the mechanics used for a power player differ greatly from the mechanics deployed by a
typical stroker style. I am a stroker and have been for my entire bowling life, which spans over 50 years. I had the very good fortune to have taken lessons from many of the greats including Fred Borden, John Jowdy (now deceased), Bill Hall and others.
Each of these great teachers contributed enormously to my bowling knowledge and their keen eyes did wonders in helping me with my physical game. It is important to point
out that the physical movements needed to master today's style (power player) are
very different than what's necessary to excel as a "stroker".  Unfortunately, many
well-intentioned, but very competent instructors make the mistake of trying to incorporate the movements of one style with the other, often with less than satisfactory results.

This leads me to make a few of my own comments about the "thumb down" issue.
The thumb down notion is indeed, intended to assist the bowler in rotating the
bowling shoulder as the swing reaches its highest point. It more easily allows the power player to get their bowling hand  behind the ball while increasing the height
of the backswing. Combined, this allows the power player to project the ball left-
to-right (rt. hander). This, combined with exaggerated side (spine) tilt allows the ball
to get under the shoulder at release. In fact, it assists the ball in getting INSIDE the shoulder at the point of release. In this position, the ball is "most heaviest". This causes the bowling wrist to collapse under the increased ball "weight" at the bottom of the swing, which effects the high rev release that we see so often today. It's not muscle that creates the power release. In fact, "muscle" inhibits it if applied at the release point. Such are the mechanics of the modern power release. They differ greatly from the movements necessary in a stroker's game. By necessity.

For a stroker, trying to incorporate elements of the above can lead to all sorts of problems.  For most strokers, rotating the bowling shoulder (opening it up) will
often lead to accuracy problems, among other things, unless the bowler is gifted
enough to be able to close the shoulder consistently, shot after shot. Pete Weber
is probably the very best at doing this. Most strokers cannot, even good ones.
The less the bowling shoulder opens, the better the results for them. So "thumb down", which in reality means getting the  BACK of the non-bowling hand facing to the right at the top of the backswing, is not a good thing for them. Instead, they should concentrate on
keeping their palm facing the floor, and the (non) bowling arm either at their side or
EVER SO SLIGHTLY in front of their left shoulder at this point. "Squareness" will always rule the day with the stroker. By necessity.

Some will argue (and have), that "squareness" inhibits the stroker from projecting the ball from right to left. They are correct if they are comparing it with the power player's ability to "open up" the lane when needed. They can do it better, no doubt about it. But the stroker can come close and do it best by staying within his own physical game. They do this through a combination of equipment /speed changes, and most of all by realigning their bodies to "fit" the trajectory they are using-- all the time being sure to remain square in relation to their ball's intended path.

Aside from the thumb down, another factor that differs between the 2 styles is the amount of forward spine tilt that is deployed. The power player of today deploys much more forward tilt than most strokers use. Yet, many instructors are
now teaching "one -for-all" strategy when it comes to forward spine tilt, which is incorrect.

Again, it is important to say that by "stroker", this also defines a bowler
who stays on the side of the ball at release, more or less. A stroker with excessive
forward spine tilt at release dramatically raises the ball's rotational axis, often causing
the ball to excessively skid and not being able to effectively read the mid lane. By necessity, this group of bowlers fare much better with less (forward) spine tilt . This
gets their bowling hand in a better position to impart side rotation on the ball at release.
In contrast, the power player, being more behind the ball, and by virtue of the
automatic wrist collapse, can effect a more powerful "roll" with increased spine tilt
because their hand is able to more effectively uncoil over a larger circumference of the ball.  This is much, much different than a the stroker's release mechanics.
 
Concluding, it cannot be emphasized enough how these 2 styles contrast so differently in terms of the mechanics needed to effect them and how important it
is for bowlers and well -intentioned instructors to acknowledge these differences.
Most importantly, they should be very cautious when attempting to incorporate
the mechanics of one style with the other.  It can lead to significant problems
down the road for a lot of bowlers (and a lot of unnecessary frustration).


 

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2014, 01:09:14 PM »
Times dictate much - surface & equipment as well the individual create styles
There may be visually differences between a power player and a contemporary type player but there are more similarities than one understands. There are basic fundamentals they all have and as I stated, when an elite player succeeds, the games are generally put under a microscope and then whatever they do, is regurgitated to the masses...this is also quite evident with grips and layouts....fads come & go but the basics will always remain...
As Arnold Palmer says - get good at swinging your swing...understand your swing and what creates it...
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2014, 02:32:12 PM »
I get that, and I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or convince myself that this is going to make me Robert Smith. I made a huge change with my footwork about 8 years ago, going from 5 steps with a VERY short (almost nonexistent) to having a normal looking 4th step. It was a change I needed to make to advance my game. Now, I'm not saying this is the crux of my issues (there are plenty), but a small trick I can have in the bag.

JustRico

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2014, 02:36:01 PM »
Everybody's game is individual to them and what works & effects them...and honestly due to age injury and flexibility altering ones game is necessary over time...to accommodate each
Maximizing one skill set is what everyone strives for...nothing wrong with that
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Impending Doom

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Re: Thumb down on non bowling arm.
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2014, 03:35:12 PM »
Believe me, Rico. I need allllll the help I can get when it comes to my physical game.