BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 05:01:25 AM

Title: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 05:01:25 AM: I have trouble with knuckling the ball and in the past I tried a tighter thumb hole via tape/magic carpet, but I always hung up on my release. Now I'm wondering if that was merely an issue with when my thumb exits the ball, as opposed to the thumb hole being to tight. At what point is the thumb supposed to exit the ball?
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: bhsbigcountry on August 14, 2008, 01:31:25 PM: it sounds like you are grabing it. your thumb should exit the ball first and ideally it should do so just when you finish your slide. if you are grabbing then you are prolly getting your arm swing ahead of you.

Also it sould be a pitch issue. what is your thumb pitches and span?
to much reverse would cause that also.
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Shawn
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 01:45:46 PM: Oh I 100% am grabbing it, theres no question as to that lol.

Unfortunately, since this is my first ball and I was just beginning to bowl when I got it, I don't know my thumb pitches or my span. Had I been more knowledgeable when I got it drilled I would have asked for that info.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 14, 2008, 01:56:22 PM: First ball and you KNOW you are grabbing it? You sound like a very educated beginner.

I'd offer you help if I could but I believe you may be beyond me in knowledge and most others also.

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 02:00:43 PM: Sorry if that came off as arrogant, I didn't mean it to.

I've had the ball for roughly a year and as I stated in my first post I realized that my thumb hole was too big and that I was knuckling the ball and tried to fix it. However, any attempt at tape/magic carpet ended up failing. I just now realized that it could be a problem with my release though, so I decided to ask about that.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: boomtown24 on August 14, 2008, 02:04:51 PM: LL, there is no need for that, either offer him help or callate!
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: pin-chaser on August 14, 2008, 02:31:34 PM: ShortAssasin

When you get your grip correct "magic" will happen:
1. The ball hold unto you
2. The ball will come off your hand by itself at the correct time
3. Your armswing will loosen up
4. Your ball speed will increase
5. Your rev rate will go up
6. Your targeting at both your mark and break point will improve

This is what you can expect. However, it is highly unlikely that you can get there in just one step. Thats why the game takes time to learn. "Small steps".. and when you get there you will know it.
--------------------

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Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 02:40:31 PM: At this point I think that getting a new ball is necessary, or getting my current thumb hole re-drilled. So if I go to do that, what do I need to tell/ask the driller? Do I just tell him that I'm knuckling/grabbing the ball, and that when I tried tape my thumb hung up in the hole?
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 14, 2008, 02:55:13 PM: I do have some ideas and will I guess muse them out here.

Bad timing ie thumb fingers coming out the same time when the thumb is very tight....

To speed the release or lead time of the thumb out of the ball additional front bevel can help a lot(mo pinel bevel tips really help here). More reverse PITCH in the thumb can get the thumb out faster earlier also. A lot of these problems can be alleviaed by getting a great pro shop guy who is well known for great fit and ALSO one who watches you throw on the rug or alley after his fix! The money spent for a great pro like this is worth it's weight in gold(I am not in the business!).

REgards,

Luckylefty

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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: on August 14, 2008, 03:02:03 PM: Interesting. Someone mentioned that too much reverse pitch could actually be whats causing me to knuckle the ball, since it may be causing my thumb to slide out and thus I grab the ball to prevent that. I guess going to a driller is the thing to do at this point. Hopefully I can just get a new slug in my current ball instead of having to buy a new one or anything.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 03:04:02 PM: Interesting. Someone actually mentioned to much reverse pitch as a possible cause of my grabbing the ball. Their logic was that if my thumb is sliding out due to the pitch, I will grab naturally to prevent the ball from falling. I guess at this point going to a driller is the only thing to do.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 04:54:35 PM: So I went to a driller. He put in a new slug and drilled an oval thumb hole for me. It's definitely tighter, but I still feel the need to squeeze with my thumb, which concerns me, because it will cause blistering since the hole is smaller. I asked about pitch, but he said that we should only consider it as a last resort, and that I should try this out first. So I'm bowling later tonight and will report back my findings.

Edited on 8/14/2008 5:09 PM
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: mrbowlingnut on August 14, 2008, 05:25:08 PM: Went to 1/8 forward from 1/8 reverse thumb pitch with trial and error, best bowling move I have ever made. What works for me will not be your answer but pitches could be the whole problem forcing you to knuckle.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 05:49:58 PM: Yeah, that's why I was a little surprised when he said not to worry about them yet.

Question: If I still feel the need to knuckle, is the hole too big? Or could it be that I just don't trust myself not ot?
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: Jay on August 14, 2008, 06:06:26 PM: I'm dealing with almost the same problem. I have to knuckle the ball a bit but even then I can get out of the ball clean most of the time. I have one ball I need to change the pitch on for sure, but my other two I would normally roll when it matters are 1/8 forward and 1/4 forward pitch. My practice ball is the same as the balls I need to change, which are all 0 pitch. Even the 1/4 forward ball doesn't quite stay on my hand unless the thumb hole is really tight and even then it's a little iffy.

But here's a suggestion. Hold the ball like you would in your stance with something like a couch or bed directly in front of you. Completely relax your bowling hand, do a pushaway, and completely relax your arm to let gravity control the swing. The ball will very likely fall off your hand almost right away and land on the couch/bed. In the event that you think the ball will actually stay on your hand for any amount of the backswing, better put some pillows on the ground behind you and find something that you can use to stop the ball from rolling into something damage it. This is what I do and personally the ball doesn't reach the backswing as it falls of pretty much immediately.

It's a decent way to test your fit without hurting anything and you can do that each time you make an adjustment to our fit if you're afraid to drop the ball on the approach.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ccrider on August 14, 2008, 06:10:38 PM: You have to think, "let it go" don't grab it. If you watch on TV, you will here PDW tell himself that all of the time. Relax your thumb and tell yourself that and then don't grab it, let it roll naturally off of your thumb. If the fit is right, it will come off at the wrong time. If it is wrong, a good driller will be able to adjust it for you, by either loosening or tightening the hole, or adjusting the forward or reverse pitch.

Once you get the fit right, you will have trouble bowling with a ball that does not fit correctly.

BTW, I have often been told to that you must apply the slightest grip pressure with your thumb, like holding a baby bird. If you do this, remember, the pressure should apply from the inside edge (right edge) of your thumb, and should stay the same from the start of your approach until the ball is released. In other words, the ball should still roll naturally off of your thumb and then fingers. You should not have to "think" and tell yourself to let it go because you are holding it so tight. If you do, you are squeezing the ball to tight with your thumb.

Last, for some, it helps to "hook" your finngers in, holding them firm. This will help to hold the ball, longer if you seem to be dropping it or releasing it early. Again, the ball should still roll off of the fingers.

One of the benefits of drilling your own balls is that you can really make slight adjustments until you get things perfect.

Good luck.

CC
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Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.

Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: Gazoo on August 14, 2008, 06:13:11 PM: quote:
Or could it be that I just don't trust myself not ot?

The power of the mind. During practice, throw the ball without knuckling your thumb no matter how weird it feels. Whats the worst that can happen, drop the ball. At least you will know for sure if it's just in your head or you have a pitch or hole size problem. Swinging a heavy round object and tossing it is not a natural thing and most at one time or another think they have to grab the ball to do it whether intentionaly or not. Good Luck
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 06:17:20 PM: I was having no problems getting out clean while knuckling it, but I want to stop knuckling it so this was the first step to take. I have a feeling my thumb is gonna do some bleeding tonight .

Well, thanks for all the advice guys. I'll post in this thread when I get home with how things went.

Edit: Just practicing in my living room with a pillow in front of me, I can avoid squeezing, but the ball pulls on my thumb to the point of pain, and my thumb comes out of the ball a bit. I'm thinking of adding some tape when I get to the alley (I don't have any at home) to make the fit a little bit tighter and I'll see if that works.

Edited on 8/14/2008 6:25 PM
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: sdbowler on August 14, 2008, 06:36:10 PM: Biggest thing to remember is that you have done this for a little while now and it is going to be hard to stop knuckling the ball. It's hard for all of us to know exactly why you are doing it. It could be a few different things. The pitches and thumbhole size would have been my first guess. I always had it explained to me that you can get more pressue by using your hole thumb and not bending it or knuckling. Try to squeeze a little with your hold thumb. Remember though that you don't want to over squeeze. I find that I would squeeze on my push away and down swing but once the ball was past my hips and going up I would stop squeezing. Good luck with this it is a HARD habit to break.
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Kyle
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 14, 2008, 06:39:12 PM: Well, hopefully with a little tape and perhaps a pitch change I'll get it down.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: sdbowler on August 14, 2008, 06:40:55 PM: The pitch change could help out. I would not rely on tape to help out sometimes it can make matters worse.
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Kyle
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: SirAshley on August 14, 2008, 09:02:27 PM: Alright dude, here's how it goes... When you are hanging up in the ball, you are destroying everything else about your form that may be perfect. I know, I suffer from the same problem. I used to knuckle the ball and it would kill my shot. I have found something that works for me, may be worth a shot. VISE makes a thumbhole tape unlike any other I have used before. It's tacky but has no residue. It offers the most comfortable fit I have ever had, and more importantly, keeps me from knuckling the ball because the ball now fits like a glove. Anyway, my proshop stopped carrying it so I bought the last few packs, I looked for it online but couldn't find it, when I do, I'll post it up for ya

Anyway, I went from a 190 Average to 205 and in fact, I broke out an old Bionic Zone import tonight and shot 708. All I can tell you is that once you can keep from hanging up, you can perfect your timing. I realize the tape is a little more expensive, but it's also nice because it doesn't leave any residue in the ball, even if you leave it in for weeks... This tape will keep you from grabbing and knuckling the ball. For the record, your thumb should come out first, and this will help. Trust me, when you get it right, you will feel it... Well, thought I would share my experience and how I turned it around. Good luck and hope you work it out...
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Edited on 8/14/2008 9:03 PM

Edited on 8/14/2008 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: LuckyLefty on August 14, 2008, 09:10:01 PM: UMMMMM, I was under the impression that you knuckled when thumb was too big. I thought a fix was attempted and had happened due to the very tight thumb hole. Now I was under the impression that the problem was hanging. Hanging can be caused by continuing to knuckle in this very tight thumb thumb hole and then you HUNG in the ball!

So my thinking was if the thumb hole is tight and you are hanging.....first try increasing front bevel. IF this does not work for your thumb hanging problem then slightly increase reverse. Bevel and increase in reverse can often solve a hanging problem. If the thumb hole is snug as it should be....then knuckling cannot happen or the release WILL not be clean.

The Mo Pinel bevel tips contained in our refernce section out here under miscellaneous can really create magic out of thumb hole that is currently not very good.

REgards,

Luckylefty

--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 15, 2008, 12:39:09 AM: Correct LL, I knuckled when the thumb hole was too big. I then tried to tighten up the hole with tape and the like, and experienced hanging.

Tonight, when I didn't grip with my thumb, the ball would catch onto it and pull it out a centimeter or so. This would lead me to believe my hole isn't tight enough, cause my thumb wasn't staying all the way in. The other problem was I couldn't get my thumb out of the ball cleanly, causing me to hang and mess up my release. So, at this point I think I have to turn to pitch to try and solve the problem. It seems like more reverse pitch and a properly fitting hold would do it. I'm going to look into the beveling that LL is talking about. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: footerson on August 15, 2008, 12:50:23 AM: i had kinda the same problem and i was told to buy finger tape which is just a strip of tape about the size of your thumb and run it along the back of your thumb when you bowl and youll get the same release but its smooth so you wont blister up or any of that. this way you wont have to change your release you can knuckle the ball like your fonfortable doing but it will have no phisical effect on your thumb
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Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: ShortAssassin on August 15, 2008, 07:22:56 AM: Right but the whole purpose of this is to not knuckle the ball, not to make knuckling more comfortable.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: Pinbuster on August 15, 2008, 07:35:06 AM: No one has mentioned span.

To long of a span can cause you to lock into the ball if the thumb is tight. Then when you get the hole large enough you have to knuckle the ball to keep from droping it.

The grip is a whole package. Hole sizes, pitches, spans that have to work together for that individual.

It is the rare driller who has mastered the art of measuring grips for bowlers. About anyone can put holes in ball, few can fit people properly.

Without being able to see and have you in a fitting ball suggestions are speculation. I would seek out another proshop if possible.
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: JohnP on August 15, 2008, 11:47:24 AM: I'm assuming your grip, hole sizes, etc. are correct. When you grip the ball, keep the knuckle straight with the thumb nail kicked toward the back of the hole a little. If you need some grip pressure to avoid dropping the ball, apply the pressure with the base of your thumb, not the tip. If you still have problems, try a Thumb Straight. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: CPA on August 19, 2008, 01:53:32 PM: I would have another pro shop give you a second opinion on the span. It sounds as though the span is a little long. Too long of a span will force you to bevel the hole a lot and/or have too large of a thumbhole. Both of these will cause you to knuckle the ball.
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USBC Bronze Coach
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: Shaker on August 20, 2008, 05:12:56 PM: quote:
Correct LL, I knuckled when the thumb hole was too big. I then tried to tighten up the hole with tape and the like, and experienced hanging.

Tonight, when I didn't grip with my thumb, the ball would catch onto it and pull it out a centimeter or so. This would lead me to believe my hole isn't tight enough, cause my thumb wasn't staying all the way in. The other problem was I couldn't get my thumb out of the ball cleanly, causing me to hang and mess up my release. So, at this point I think I have to turn to pitch to try and solve the problem. It seems like more reverse pitch and a properly fitting hold would do it. I'm going to look into the beveling that LL is talking about. Any other suggestions?

Tonight, when I didn't grip with my thumb, the ball would catch onto it and pull it out a centimeter or so. This would lead me to believe my hole isn't tight enough, cause my thumb wasn't staying all the way in.

So I'm assuming by the way this reads the ball was slipping off your thumb a centimeter when relaxing your grip not actually pulling your thumb out a centimeter. If this is the case then you need more FORWARD pitch in your thumb if the ball is slipping off at all.

The other problem was I couldn't get my thumb out of the ball cleanly, causing me to hang and mess up my release.

You didn't hang you grabbed the ball as soon as you felt it start to slip and ended up knuckling a tight thumbhole, easy to confuse with hanging up. Again moving your pitch forward should correct this.

Next, I don't like the analogies such as holding a baby bird, holding an egg, whatever metaphor was being made. I had huge problems with knuckling and squeezing and this advice didn't really help and here's why. No matter what you're concentrating on holding you end up trying to gauge how much is too much or too little and you end up squeezing the ball, even if it is less than before.

Deadbait is right, your thumb should never come into consideration. Once you get your thumb fit issues resolved here are the two best pieces of advice I have heard and tried here in the last month and boy have they made a difference.

1. Imagine holding and supporting the ball with ONLY your fingers, while keeping a firm wrist and forearm to help assist your fingers.
2. Try inserting your thumb first and then your fingers. From what I read it works for some but not for others. For those it works for, myself included, somehow it help me alleviate my grip pressure, I don't know exactly how, I have theories, but honestly I don't really care it works for me, and has for a friend of mine as well.

I wish I could give credit to those who posted those bits of advice, but honestly I couldn't remember which threads I read them in to save my life. I just want those to know I appreciate their input and that it's made a WORLD of difference to me. Sorry for the long-winded post just my .02

Edited on 8/20/2008 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Thumb Exit Timing?
Post by: baiki on August 20, 2008, 10:39:54 PM: Try practicing consciouly having your thumb nail rubbing the ball on your release. This will straighten your thumb.
Try releasing slowly to get the feel. Once you get the feel, you can get back to normal speed.
It also looks you may have timing problems too.

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baiki
"Faulty mechanics makes all balls bad." Bill Hall, BTM Dec. '98