Have an span of 5 and 5 1/8 using 1/8 rev 1/8 lat just not releasing as clean as I like 3/8 and 1/4 seems too much thinking about 0 and 0 to take some grab at the bottom of the swing need some in-put please.

Then your span is too long.  If the span is the right length, you shouldn't have to bevel much regardless of pitch.  With a relaxed grip, your thumb socket at the base of your thumb should rest directly above the thumbhole.  This allows your thumb to be straight in the hole and come straight out on release.  If you had to bevel, it was a span issue, not a pitch issue. 

Quote from: Danasaurus on May 20, 2014, 05:43:30 PM

For what it's worth, my span is 4 9/16 and 4 5/8. I went from 3/8 reverse and 1/8 under to 0  and 0 (in 1/8" increments).I had to bevel the front of hole so much to clear it I ended up squeezing anyway. I am currently at 7/16 reverse 3/16 away and love it. Probably depends mostly on the flexibility of your hand. I suggest experimenting.

What issues will one have if his span is drilled too short?

I coundn't disagree more that no bevel is needed for a perfect fit for all thumbs.

I work with a driller who I believe does a great job for many of his clients and I would guess 95% have bevel and get out of the ball quite nicely.

Rare is the bowler without it and very much of the time it is because they have no fatty skin between the thumb and index finger.

In addition with today's trend towards pitches that are more forward for the thumb than the 64 degree angle prescribed by Bill Taylor in his tables, many bowlers with these forward pitches need more bevel than ever under the flat of the thumb to both prevent lofting the ball from hanging and also to prevent black lines and nerve damage under the flat of the thumb.

I have fixed many an already nerve damaged thumb or beginning nerve damaged thumb by adding front bevel under the flat of the thumb when the forward reverse pitch is way forward of the Bill Taylor tables and the thumb did not have the flexibility to carry it.

REgards,

Luckylefty

Flexibility?  The thumb points in the same direction the rest of the fingers do, it actually needs to be more flexible to accommodate more REVERSE pitch.  I DO have bevel, not much, but enough to take the sharpness off the edge.  I bevel for all my customers, but not much to begin with, if they request more, I deal with it.  If you do too much, it allows the hand to shift position on the ball and could change an otherwise good fit.  If the "fatty skin" or webbing between the thumb and first finger is being irritated by a lack of bevel, that tells me the span is too long AND that the thumb has too much reverse.  If the thumb socket is directly over the thumbhole, the span is appropriate, and the hand is in the correct position on the ball, you should not need much bevel, if any.  If the webbing is stretched at all, or to the point where rubbing on the front edge of the hole is causing a blister at the base of the thumb, the fit is not correct, or at the very least could be made a lot better.  Also keep in mind that the further the thumb is angled away from the palm, the more stretched the webbing becomes.  With 0 or forward pitch, the webbing is relaxed. 

If bowlers with forward pitches need more bevel, the span is too long or their hand is out of position.  There should be no hanging unless there is also gripping.  I'm at 0 any direction in my thumb, span is 4 3/8 x 4 7/16, and several years ago it used to be at 1/4 reverse on a slightly longer span.  My release is clean every time now that I don't have to grip to hold onto the ball, I rub nowhere, and my thumb doesn't swell anymore, and I have significantly less bevel than I used to.  If there's nerve damage, the span is too long or the bowler is gripping.  Extra bevel on the front is never a fix, it's a bandaid.  It just covers up a poor fit or allows the bowler to continue bad habits. 

Gizmo,

I respect your comments.

Your answers are complete, non pedantic, not condescending, as if delivered from on high and refreshing for out here.

I believe we are closer in views than you sense.  I believe in necessary bevel.  Necessary bevel I believe increases the more one varies from their anatomical pitches.

For example any bowler that has a nice comfortable  span with near 0 finger pitches and goes to a forward thumb pitch more than a quarter from the tables will often need to add a goodly amount of bevel under the flat pad using the MO Pinel Bevel tips.  Or they almost universally suffer the black line electric shock consequences if other pitches are left alone and span stays the same.

I could try with an extra ball a reverse pitch fingers and 0,0 thumb pitch but I am confused as to why?

Why is a 0, 0 thumb pitch a goal?  What does 0,0 thumb and reverse fingers on a 5 inch comfortable span accomplish better than a 0 reverse fingers reverse pitch thumb on the same comfortable span for a person with very flexible finger joints!  How do you perceive the timing changing in the change from the traditional to your method?

Regards,

Luckylefty

Gripping angles should be dictated by the hand and release...NOTHING ELSE

LuckyLefty I've been lucky when it comes to the thumb most drillers in my area likes the fact that all they have to do is just drill the thumb hole and do  not have to do any adjustments and very light bevel. The stiff fingers comes from old football injury. My release and timing of the fingers versus the thumb for reasons unknown to me is pretty good with 0/0 pitch. Still using the same size hole and everything.

0/0 is just a coincedence, I don't think it's ideal for everyone, because all hands are different.  Just happens to be my specs and the specs scrub was trying out.  Some people who are very flexible and/or double jointed do require some different technique or measurements, however, just based on the shape of the hand and the physics of the armswing and release, you don't need to put the hand in more unnatural positions to achieve the desired effect.  You can get the same or better effect putting the hand in a more comfortable position.  0 reverse in the fingers and reverse in the thumb just isn't the way the hand is shaped, and even if someone CAN use a fit like that just fine, they will often be more comfortable and either see the same results or possibly better if you fit the hand as it more naturally lays.  I actually drilled a new thumb slug a few days ago because the other one was getting too beveled and my hand was getting out of position on the ball.  It improved my release.

You do need a straighter line on the thumb (equaling less bevel) to keep your hand in the proper position and as it was fit.  Too much bevel can simulate a span that's too short.  The thumb molds used in the fitting balls usually have very little bevel, and if you fit with them, and then bevel the hell out of the front side of the hole, the hand is going to ride up towards the fingers, usually resulting in digging in too far with the fingers and causing problems there because that's USUALLY the adjustment people naturally make.  If the span feels too short, people will dig in more with the fingers rather than seating the hand back further and going as deep as they can with the thumb. 

Again, people's hands are different, and even the way they get fit will be different.  You could have two guys who have the exact same fit philosophy, and although I'm sure they would give the same person extremely similar fits, something will be different 4 out of 5 times.  Some of it is an art too, because sometimes a ball can roll off the press ready to throw for some people, and for others, that's the shortest part of the process.  There's one guy I drill for that I have to spend usually 30 minutes hand tooling on it after it comes off the press, he's got knobs and bone spurs . . but some of that is from years of a bad fit . .