BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Hogsharley on May 18, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
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In August our league is most likely going to vote to dump the USBC. The USBC has done nothing for us. Our secretary has put in for some awards and we never get them. We have called the local chapter and still no resolutions. The secretary and other officers are on board with leaving the USBC and we'll still get our awards, even if you already have a rings.
The league would act on it's own. The money that we would pay to the USBC will be placed in an awards fund and anyone that shoots an honor score will get a ring. We have about 100 bowlers so at $20 a head, we will have around 2 G's for awards. We can buy a lot of rings for 2 G's. Whatever monies that don't get used will be placed back into the general prize fund. It a win, win for our league.
Leagues used to sanction in order to get awards. Basically now there are no more awards so why keep the USBC. It's time to dump the USBC. I hope more leagues start thinking about leaving them too. Hit 'em where it hurts. Their wallets. Maybe they will get the hint.
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So what happens if the secretary runs off with the money in this non sanctioned league? Just one reason other than an award to bowl in a sanctioned league.
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So what happens if the secretary runs off with the money in this non sanctioned league? Just one reason other than an award to bowl in a sanctioned league.
I've heard of some leagues having that problem. Our officers are all upstanding people who all have been in this league for over 10 years. They all do more than what is asked of them in order to make the league successful. They all have families ties to the community and most importantly, we know where they live.
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Will you let league members use their Jackals?
Or use the USBC approved ball list?
Just it a try and see what happens.
We're still going to play by USBC rules. We just elect not to give them any monies.
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It will be interesting to see how many of your bowlers wind up having a sanction cards anyway.
Do to them bowling in other leagues that are sanctioned or wanting to bowl in sanctioned tournaments.
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It will be interesting to see how many of your bowlers wind up having a sanction cards anyway.
Do to them bowling in other leagues that are sanctioned or wanting to bowl in sanctioned tournaments.
About 70% only bowl in this league and have doing so for many years
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It will be interesting to see how many of your bowlers wind up having a sanction cards anyway.
Do to them bowling in other leagues that are sanctioned or wanting to bowl in sanctioned tournaments.
I would love to dump USBC for the same reasons that the OP stated, but due to a couple of tournaments that I bowl in I have to have a sanction card.
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Hog
For your protection, regardless of the stature of the officers in the local community or how he/she presents him or herself, you need double and possibly triple protection for the league funds. Many others have run off for much less and have literally ruined his/her life for what most of us would shake our head at and say "Why"?
You never know what is going on at home, work, or somewhere else that would make someone act out of character.
Before I moved last year, a guy and his buddies got high/were drinking or a combo of both and decided to order a pizza for delivery. The pizza guy showed up late and the guys started to give the pizza guy a bad time (like a 30 minute delivery guarantee or its free) and one of the guys ended up punching the pizza guy, pizza guy is out cold, falls back, cracks his head on the ground, dies. Guys are all in jail right now over what, a $15-$20 pizza? One guy had no records prior to this...nothing.
Point is, you just never know. Require 2 or 3 signatures on the league funds at the bank and require everyone to sign in front of a banker before any money can be withdrawn. If the lague has checks that can be drawn off the account, make sure the checks require multiple signatures. Make sure the president of the league reviews the bank statements monthly to ensure all the money is in the account that should be. Its the little things that will end up protecting you in the long run.
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WOWZERS right the captain of my team double as sec. for 6 leagues we showed up to bowl one night and all the other teams was looking at us strange whispering to each other. Come to find out our captain had run off with money from not just our league but all 6 of them and ask us did we have anything to do with. The guy who ran away with the league funds worked for the post office for over 25 years that was the start of in house-banking the next year in my area.
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I'd say you're kind of a hypocrite if you're going to use USBC rules but not pay for the privilege. Why bother even bowling? Why don't you and your fellow league members quit the sport. Hang out in the bar, pool your money and buy yourselves all the trophies and trinkets you can afford. If that is the only reason you bowl, the sport doesn't need you!
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I disagree with Urethane Game, organized bowling needs everyone it can get but lets be realistic. The USBC and BPAA gave up on the average league bowler a long time ago. USBC is all about the sport/tournament bowling (1% of membership) and the bowling proprietors want to maximize recreational participation with open play and parties.
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IMO, you're making ab argument FOR the USBC without even realizing it.
in order to start your own league, you're going to use all of the work USBC already did for you.
In order to manage the league, you're going to use the officer structure USBC mandates.
In order to give rewards, you're going to charge bowlers MORE than their USBC dues. Managing your league is already more expensive than USBC sanctioning fees, and you didn't do an iota of the work.
This whole post reeks of "I hate my internet provider, so I steal my neighbors wifi". I hope your league fails miserably, though I doubt it will. You think you're hitting USBC where it hurts, but the only people this hurts is the bowlers that do sanction that now have even less funding.
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In August our league is most likely going to vote to dump the USBC. The USBC has done nothing for us. Our secretary has put in for some awards and we never get them. We have called the local chapter and still no resolutions.
You do realize you aren't upset with the national USBC, but with your local organization who you voted into their positions. National USBC does not provide the everyday awards. Now, if your only concern are ring awards, then yeah, you get one a lifetime now.
So what award are you accusing USBC not providing? If it is a ring, then maybe I can see the complaint. If it is anything else, you are barking up the wrong tree being mad at the national USBC. Vote for different people in your local association.
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USBC sanctioning also provided bonding for the league.
If the league goes unsanctioned, then you should use part of that $20 surcharge to have the Treasurer bonded.
We had a guy here who was Sec./Trea. for several leagues, he went and got himself bonded.
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I disagree with Urethane Game, organized bowling needs everyone it can get but lets be realistic. The USBC and BPAA gave up on the average league bowler a long time ago. USBC is all about the sport/tournament bowling (1% of membership) and the bowling proprietors want to maximize recreational participation with open play and parties.
Agree 100%. Also...I agree with the notion to not sanction the leagues but let individuals sanction themselves if they want to bowl in a sanctioned tournament. If the prize fund is done through the center instead of having people to do it themselves; it eliminates the risk of someone running off with the money.
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Of course the USBC is only concerned about the competitive side of the game. If you are bowling league and keep track of your average, you are part of the competitive game. If you want to bowl in a league, and play by rules you need the USBC, and 20 bucks a years is not a huge price to pay for having them.
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Of course the USBC is only concerned about the competitive side of the game. If you are bowling league and keep track of your average, you are part of the competitive game. If you want to bowl in a league, and play by rules you need the USBC, and 20 bucks a years is not a huge price to pay for having them.
+1
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So 70% of these guys will not be bowling any other USBC sanctioned leagues or tournaments?
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If the prize fund is done through the center instead of having people to do it themselves; it eliminates the risk of someone running off with the money.
Not necessarily, someone in the center can embezzle the funds if the center doesn't have them in some type of escrow account.
Someone on this forum several years back, posted how their league let the center handle the money. The center closed up and they lost their money.
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Of course the USBC is only concerned about the competitive side of the game. If you are bowling league and keep track of your average, you are part of the competitive game. If you want to bowl in a league, and play by rules you need the USBC, and 20 bucks a years is not a huge price to pay for having them.
USBC is supposed to be a membership organization and the governing body for the sport of bowling...not a tournament sponsor/promoter. How about investing in making our local associations more effective at acquiring and retaining members since the majority of our membership does not compete in the PWBA, Open Championships, Womens Open Championships, Mixed Open Championships, USBC Masters, USBC Queens, US Open or Womens US Open. Seems like a group that generates a sizable portion of their revenue from membership dues would take a more active role in making local associations more effective rather than #afutureforthesport. Growing membership will make bowling great again, not tournaments.
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USBC is supposed to be a membership organization and the governing body for the sport of bowling...not a tournament sponsor/promoter. How about investing in making our local associations more effective at acquiring and retaining members since the majority of our membership does not compete in the PWBA, Open Championships, Womens Open Championships, Mixed Open Championships, USBC Masters, USBC Queens, US Open or Womens US Open. Seems like a group that generates a sizable portion of their revenue from membership dues would take a more active role in making local associations more effective rather than #afutureforthesport. Growing membership will make bowling great again, not tournaments.
Membership growth rarely emanates from efforts by the local associations. These are local volunteers who are well meaning people, but have no clue about recruiting masses of new bowlers, and won't no matter how much money you throw at them. They're challenged enough performing basic administrative functions.
The reality is that recruitment is a local house effort. Good proprietors run promotions to get people in the door for open bowling. Once they're in, management has the opportunity to present opportunities for league bowling. It works when the focus is there.
I personally find a lot of value in USBC sponsored tournaments. I believe you're underestimating their value in keeping bowlers enthused about the sport. Even if the majority of bowlers don't compete, the record keeping and other back-of-house functions the USBC performs are worth far more than the pocket change of annual dues we all pay.
I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to what we already have.
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So what happens if the secretary runs off with the money in this non sanctioned league? Just one reason other than an award to bowl in a sanctioned league.
I've heard of some leagues having that problem. Our officers are all upstanding people who all have been in this league for over 10 years. They all do more than what is asked of them in order to make the league successful. They all have families ties to the community and most importantly, we know where they live.
MANY convicted felons began their adult lives as "upstanding people." League secretaries who have been around a league for years have up and walked with large sums of money. All it takes is one crisis in their life and the easily available cash eases the crunch. It happens more than you think...and not just in bowling. Had a client many years ago that got about $750K from a large race track over a period of time (actually more, but not all of it was still within the statute of limitations)...family owned a large car dealership. She covered it well, both the need for money as well as cooking the books...she was caught because of a tax over-payment refund check that went to the corporate parent of the race track. It happens, and status in the community does not mean a thing with regards to prevention of the loss if the circumstances are right...
As to awards, without knowing what they were, it may be the association that screwed the pooch. Some awards are kept local while others have to be sent off to obtain, but that is still an association function, not a league function.
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Steven,
I would expect you to find value with the current direction, you're the part of the 1% as are most on this site. The problem is we've lost about 80% of our membership over the last decade and the USBC seems think investing in the 1% is going to get the 80% back.
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Steven,
I would expect you to find value with the current direction, you're the part of the 1% as are most on this site. The problem is we've lost about 80% of our membership over the last decade and the USBC seems think investing in the 1% is going to get the 80% back.
I like your enthusiasm, but you're focusing on what you want the USBC to be vs. what the USBC realistically can be.
Any governing body is going to have severe limitations. The proprietors ultimately decide what lane conditions will exist in their houses. It's about what conditions the owners feel will keep bowlers coming back, and that will never change. I'm good friends with a local owner who has interests in several houses, and he'll toss the USBC (or any governing body) out the door that he believes threatens his bottom line. It's delusional to believe the USBC will ever have significant influence in this area.
Again, local association (regardless of governing umbrella) will never become recruitment machines. They don't have the time or background to fill that roll, regardless of how much money you throw at them. It has to come from involved houses, and just as important, from us as concerned bowlers. Looking to others is not going to be the solution.
USBC involvement in tournaments and bowler development helps keep bowling relevant a sport. That has to be one of their primary missions. Providing record keeping and other important financial functions is another core responsibility that absolutely necessary and one that they perform pretty well. Realistically, I'm still not sure what you want that's attainable.
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I don't think USBC is all that worried about getting the 80% back you're talking about. It's trying to generate interest and bring in newcomers, and they think that can be accomplished by building up the youth, high school, and collegiate programs, which it has done/is doing, and by making the sport visible (i.e. Olympics, PWBA, PBA, ITC's, ISC's, etc.) While they would gladly welcome the defectors back with open arms, I don't think they're trying to bring back the old guard; I think they're trying to bring in the new recruits.
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I don't think USBC is all that worried about getting the 80% back you're talking about. It's trying to generate interest and bring in newcomers, and they think that can be accomplished by building up the youth, high school, and collegiate programs, which it has done/is doing, and by making the sport visible (i.e. Olympics, PWBA, PBA, ITC's, ISC's, etc.) While they would gladly welcome the defectors back with open arms, I don't think they're trying to bring back the old guard; I think they're trying to bring in the new recruits.
Who cares where the growth comes from, we haven't experienced any membership growth in more than a decade while we've lost roughly 8,000,000 members.
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Steven,
I would expect you to find value with the current direction, you're the part of the 1% as are most on this site. The problem is we've lost about 80% of our membership over the last decade and the USBC seems think investing in the 1% is going to get the 80% back.
I like your enthusiasm, but you're focusing on what you want the USBC to be vs. what the USBC realistically can be.
Any governing body is going to have severe limitations. The proprietors ultimately decide what lane conditions will exist in their houses. It's about what conditions the owners feel will keep bowlers coming back, and that will never change. I'm good friends with a local owner who has interests in several houses, and he'll toss the USBC (or any governing body) out the door that he believes threatens his bottom line. It's delusional to believe the USBC will ever have significant influence in this area.
Again, local association (regardless of governing umbrella) will never become recruitment machines. They don't have the time or background to fill that roll, regardless of how much money you throw at them. It has to come from involved houses, and just as important, from us as concerned bowlers. Looking to others is not going to be the solution.
USBC involvement in tournaments and bowler development helps keep bowling relevant a sport. That has to be one of their primary missions. Providing record keeping and other important financial functions is another core responsibility that absolutely necessary and one that they perform pretty well. Realistically, I'm still not sure what you want that's attainable.
You may be right, but whatever the USBC plan is/has been, it isn't working so I doubt a different strategy could do any worse.
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USBC is supposed to be a membership organization and the governing body for the sport of bowling...not a tournament sponsor/promoter. How about investing in making our local associations more effective at acquiring and retaining members since the majority of our membership does not compete in the PWBA, Open Championships, Womens Open Championships, Mixed Open Championships, USBC Masters, USBC Queens, US Open or Womens US Open. Seems like a group that generates a sizable portion of their revenue from membership dues would take a more active role in making local associations more effective rather than #afutureforthesport. Growing membership will make bowling great again, not tournaments.
Membership growth rarely emanates from efforts by the local associations. These are local volunteers who are well meaning people, but have no clue about recruiting masses of new bowlers, and won't no matter how much money you throw at them. They're challenged enough performing basic administrative functions.
The reality is that recruitment is a local house effort. Good proprietors run promotions to get people in the door for open bowling. Once they're in, management has the opportunity to present opportunities for league bowling. It works when the focus is there.
I personally find a lot of value in USBC sponsored tournaments. I believe you're underestimating their value in keeping bowlers enthused about the sport. Even if the majority of bowlers don't compete, the record keeping and other back-of-house functions the USBC performs are worth far more than the pocket change of annual dues we all pay.
I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to what we already have.
Good points Steven, and I will go even further.
If we as bowlers want bowling to become more popular, it is up to us.
How many people here can say they have personally made an effort to further bowling?
I guess that leaves the question of "What can I do as an individual?"
We can bring in more league bowlers. I know this works because that's how I started bowling. A guy I work with wanted to start a company team and ask if I would be interested. I had never thrown a bowling ball and the idea of it had never actually crossed my mind. But I did join his team and became a regular bowler.
How many of us bowl in tournament like the State or USBC Open? Getting league bowlers to participate in these events makes people more interested in the sport itself. It doesn't take a lot of effort on our part to sign up an extra team or two. You might have to explain to these newer bowlers how it works and what to expect, but it's not a lot of extra work and it promotes the sport.
If we all did just these two things, the sport of bowling would grow from a huge base of people who know very little about the game/sport. The youth are a good place to help grow and USBC is working that angle, but the biggest untapped group is the middle aged and older folks who would enjoy the social aspect of the game. They just have no idea how to get started or never gave it any thought, just like it was for me.
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I'd say you're kind of a hypocrite if you're going to use USBC rules but not pay for the privilege. Why bother even bowling? Why don't you and your fellow league members quit the sport. Hang out in the bar, pool your money and buy yourselves all the trophies and trinkets you can afford. If that is the only reason you bowl, the sport doesn't need you!
WOW. Thanks for the strong reply but I'm not giving up bowling.
Has anyone here played golf or baseball/softball during the summer? What rules do they play by? Who do you pay to use those rules?
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milorafferty hit on one of my biggest issues with the USBC. I find in unconscionable in 2016 that there are not coordinated media efforts between the BPAA, USBC and local associations to engage current and p
USBC is supposed to be a membership organization and the governing body for the sport of bowling...not a tournament sponsor/promoter. How about investing in making our local associations more effective at acquiring and retaining members since the majority of our membership does not compete in the PWBA, Open Championships, Womens Open Championships, Mixed Open Championships, USBC Masters, USBC Queens, US Open or Womens US Open. Seems like a group that generates a sizable portion of their revenue from membership dues would take a more active role in making local associations more effective rather than #afutureforthesport. Growing membership will make bowling great again, not tournaments.
Membership growth rarely emanates from efforts by the local associations. These are local volunteers who are well meaning people, but have no clue about recruiting masses of new bowlers, and won't no matter how much money you throw at them. They're challenged enough performing basic administrative functions.
The reality is that recruitment is a local house effort. Good proprietors run promotions to get people in the door for open bowling. Once they're in, management has the opportunity to present opportunities for league bowling. It works when the focus is there.
I personally find a lot of value in USBC sponsored tournaments. I believe you're underestimating their value in keeping bowlers enthused about the sport. Even if the majority of bowlers don't compete, the record keeping and other back-of-house functions the USBC performs are worth far more than the pocket change of annual dues we all pay.
I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to what we already have.
Good points Steven, and I will go even further.
If we as bowlers want bowling to become more popular, it is up to us.
How many people here can say they have personally made an effort to further bowling?
I guess that leaves the question of "What can I do as an individual?"
We can bring in more league bowlers. I know this works because that's how I started bowling. A guy I work with wanted to start a company team and ask if I would be interested. I had never thrown a bowling ball and the idea of it had never actually crossed my mind. But I did join his team and became a regular bowler.
How many of us bowl in tournament like the State or USBC Open? Getting league bowlers to participate in these events makes people more interested in the sport itself. It doesn't take a lot of effort on our part to sign up an extra team or two. You might have to explain to these newer bowlers how it works and what to expect, but it's not a lot of extra work and it promotes the sport.
If we all did just these two things, the sport of bowling would grow from a huge base of people who know very little about the game/sport. The youth are a good place to help grow and USBC is working th
USBC is supposed to be a membership organization and the governing body for the sport of bowling...not a tournament sponsor/promoter. How about investing in making our local associations more effective at acquiring and retaining members since the majority of our membership does not compete in the PWBA, Open Championships, Womens Open Championships, Mixed Open Championships, USBC Masters, USBC Queens, US Open or Womens US Open. Seems like a group that generates a sizable portion of their revenue from membership dues would take a more active role in making local associations more effective rather than #afutureforthesport. Growing membership will make bowling great again, not tournaments.
Membership growth rarely emanates from efforts by the local associations. These are local volunteers who are well meaning people, but have no clue about recruiting masses of new bowlers, and won't no matter how much money you throw at them. They're challenged enough performing basic administrative functions.
The reality is that recruitment is a local house effort. Good proprietors run promotions to get people in the door for open bowling. Once they're in, management has the opportunity to present opportunities for league bowling. It works when the focus is there.
I personally find a lot of value in USBC sponsored tournaments. I believe you're underestimating their value in keeping bowlers enthused about the sport. Even if the majority of bowlers don't compete, the record keeping and other back-of-house functions the USBC performs are worth far more than the pocket change of annual dues we all pay.
I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to what we already have.
Good points Steven, and I will go even further.
If we as bowlers want bowling to become more popular, it is up to us.
How many people here can say they have personally made an effort to further bowling?
I guess that leaves the question of "What can I do as an individual?"
We can bring in more league bowlers. I know this works because that's how I started bowling. A guy I work with wanted to start a company team and ask if I would be interested. I had never thrown a bowling ball and the idea of it had never actually crossed my mind. But I did join his team and became a regular bowler.
How many of us bowl in tournament like the State or USBC Open? Getting league bowlers to participate in these events makes people more interested in the sport itself. It doesn't take a lot of effort on our part to sign up an extra team or two. You might have to explain to these newer bowlers how it works and what to expect, but it's not a lot of extra work and it promotes the sport.
If we all did just these two things, the sport of bowling would grow from a huge base of people who know very little about the game/sport. The youth are a good place to help grow and USBC is working that angle, but the biggest untapped group is the middle aged and older folks who would enjoy the social aspect of the game. They just have no idea how to get started or never gave it any thought, just like it was for me.
t angle, but the biggest untapped group is the middle aged and older folks who would enjoy the social aspect of the game. They just have no idea how to get started or never gave it any thought, just like it was for me.
Sure would be nice if there were coordinated social media campaigns (USBC/BPAA/Local Associations) to engage current and potential members. I mean I love a gobowling.com logo on a NASCAR as much as the next guy, but it might be time to try something relevant that promotes membership.
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Sorry, but you missed my point. It's not up to and probably not even possible for USBC to have much effect at the local level. It's up to us as bowlers.
WE need to bring in other bowlers, people who we know or are associated with.
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So 70% of these guys will not be bowling any other USBC sanctioned leagues or tournaments?
70% of these won't pick up a ball until September. Many use only one ball and they're over 10 years old.
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USBC ( ABC at the time ) had little to do with bringing in the host of new bowlers during the boom of the late 50's, and likewise there is little they could do to stem the decline. Bowling centers are a profit making enterprise, and as such, it is the job of their trade association, more so than of the USBC, to promote overall participation in the game. It is the job of the USBC to create an atmosphere that promotes the competitive side of the game in terms of leagues and tournaments which in turn represent a profitable product for proprietors to offer.
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So 70% of these guys will not be bowling any other USBC sanctioned leagues or tournaments?
70% of these won't pick up a ball until September. Many use only one ball and they're over 10 years old.
Fair enough.
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IMO, you're making ab argument FOR the USBC without even realizing it.
in order to start your own league, you're going to use all of the work USBC already did for you.
In order to manage the league, you're going to use the officer structure USBC mandates.
In order to give rewards, you're going to charge bowlers MORE than their USBC dues. Managing your league is already more expensive than USBC sanctioning fees, and you ocdidn't do an iota of the work.
This whole post reeks of "I hate my internet provider, so I steal my neighbors wifi". I hope your league fails miserably, though I doubt it will. You think you're hitting USBC where it hurts, but the only people this hurts is the bowlers that do sanction that now have even less funding.
Our sanction fee is $22 which includes the local association (they do even less for us) fees. Like I mentioned before, all monies go back into the league in awards or prize fund so it's not costing us any more and the league members get 100% back.
This is not about stealing. The USBC charges us $22 each and we feel don't feel we're getting our monies worth. It's the same reason senior leagues don't sanction. There's no reason too. The only good thing we get is the prize fund insurance and there's other options there.
Over the past 10 years our league has probably paid the USBC $15,000 to $20,000. We feel that we've given enough to them.
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USBC ( ABC at the time ) had little to do with bringing in the host of new bowlers during the boom of the late 50's, and likewise there is little they could do to stem the decline. Bowling centers are a profit making enterprise, and as such, it is the job of their trade association, more so than of the USBC, to promote overall participation in the game. It is the job of the USBC to create an atmosphere that promotes the competitive side of the game in terms of leagues and tournaments which in turn represent a profitable product for proprietors to offer.
For an organization that in your words has no impact, positive or negative, on membership they sure seem to take a lot of membership dollars.
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my wife and i were going to bowl a summer league. went to the meeting, they want $35 for a sanction including the "local". we both laughed and walked out. center owner asked what happened, i explained the sanction fees are insane,what a joke.
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my wife and i were going to bowl a summer league. went to the meeting, they want $35 for a sanction including the "local". we both laughed and walked out. center owner asked what happened, i explained the sanction fees are insane,what a joke.
You need to go back and point them to this link.
http://www.bowl.com/Program_Changes_2014/Program_Changes_2014-2015_Home/Adult_short-season_membership_now_available/
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my wife and i were going to bowl a summer league. went to the meeting, they want $35 for a sanction including the "local". we both laughed and walked out. center owner asked what happened, i explained the sanction fees are insane,what a joke.
Yea what an insane joke USBC should be working for free
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I'd say you're kind of a hypocrite if you're going to use USBC rules but not pay for the privilege. Why bother even bowling? Why don't you and your fellow league members quit the sport. Hang out in the bar, pool your money and buy yourselves all the trophies and trinkets you can afford. If that is the only reason you bowl, the sport doesn't need you!
WOW. Thanks for the strong reply but I'm not giving up bowling.
Has anyone here played golf or baseball/softball during the summer? What rules do they play by? Who do you pay to use those rules?
I sometimes play mens slow pitch softball in the summers. when a league lines up with the availability of my friends.
There are several governing bodies for softball. ASA, USSSA, NSA and others.
each has their own rules. the basics of the game are the same, but they each govern equipment differently, and there are some differences between what is a legal pitch.
every softball league I have ever participated in has been associated with one of the established governing bodies.
From a liability and insurance perspective there are no local fields that would allow you to play without being governed by a body. and we have a number of privately owned softball parks in my area. They could take that risk and choose not to.
Not being on that side for bowling, I don't know this either way. But, I wonder if the bowling center is taking any risk (personal injury litigation??) by taking on a non-sanctioned league.
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The thing that screwed ABC/USBC was giving bowlers the expectation that bowling is only special when they give you a trinket that you wouldn't take a second look at during checkout at your local dollar store. As far as I know, no other governing body gives trinkets to their members. Especially, for less than a couple of value meals at McDonalds.
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The thing that screwed ABC/USBC was giving bowlers the expectation that bowling is only special when they give you a trinket that you wouldn't take a second look at during checkout at your local dollar store. As far as I know, no other governing body gives trinkets to their members. Especially, for less than a couple of value meals at McDonalds.
And yet bowlers are still bitching about not getting those trinkets any more...
This is actually about the only real complaint I have with USBC(other than not being able to wear shorts during the USBC Open when the ladies can). For bowlers who have been around a while and gotten a few 300 and 800 awards, those 150 game, 200 game, 75 over average, 100 over series patches, keychains and magnets mean nothing.
But to a new bowler, those items tend to have a lot more value. It adds something to the game whenever they receive one. Like it was another step in their progression as a bowler. Now before the stampede of idiots here start giving me grief, I don't care if you think these trinkets are worthless. Most new bowlers appreciated receiving them and that benefited the game. I think it was a mistake to stop that program.
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For an organization that in your words has no impact, positive or negative, on membership they sure seem to take a lot of membership dollars.
Annual dues are less than a good chunk of bowlers spend on food, booze, and/or brackets in a single night. Just the administration piece of USBC services is worth more than we're each paying.
Aside from this, I hope it makes sense that the USBC (or any governing body) has limited impact at the local level. Keep expectations in sync with reality, and the USBC isn't that bad of an organization.
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For an organization that in your words has no impact, positive or negative, on membership they sure seem to take a lot of membership dollars.
Annual dues are less than a good chunk of bowlers spend on food, booze, and/or brackets in a single night. Just the administration piece of USBC services is worth more than we're each paying.
Aside from this, I hope it makes sense that the USBC (or any governing body) has limited impact at the local level. Keep expectations in sync with reality, and the USBC isn't that bad of an organization.
This!!!! ^ Bowlers are a hypocritical bunch. Pay 200+ on a ball that won't make them any better but won't 25$ to a association that is TRYING to help. We should be paying 3 times what we are currently paying
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Just the administration piece of USBC services is worth more than we're each paying.
Excellent point!
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I'd pay more for membership myself. If the USBC should fail then the game falls to the proprietors. That is not a scenario that will have a positive outcome.
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IMHO, I don't see how you intend on growing the sport when at the same time you're cutting incentives for people to want to join your organization. I, as an experienced bowler understand only giving out one award per lifetime for 300 & 800 achievements but to leave out at least acknowledging the league bowler for major milestones like 11 in a row or 290 games is just ridiculous. I shot 295 last year and 290 twice and for that not to at least be recognized says that my hard work on improving my game is for nothing. What does that say for the beginner who may never achieve a perfect game? I guess he is just bowling for nothing. The awards give the average participant an incentive to bowl. But there is a flip side to the coin. The bowlers themselves. I don't know about your area but where I'm from the house kings cry and whine when they don't get the shot that they want. The novice or average bowler don't stand a chance against them. I have seen times when the house put down a more difficult shot and they scream and cry all season long vowing to never come back. The average player in most cases has the advantage on these shots and it makes the game fun for them. No one likes getting crushed week in and week out by the same people that exploit the shot given to them. Next season they don't come back. Thus even more decline.
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Looking back, it was probably a mistake for ABC to ever get into the awards business as far as high value rings etc go. When I first started bowling league there were lots of houses that put up hundreds of dollars themselves for 300 games. Most quit this business in the early 70's. If bowlers from day one had gotten recognition in record books and a nice certificate for award scores it would have probably been better.
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Looking back, it was probably a mistake for ABC to ever get into the awards business as far as high value rings etc go. When I first started bowling league there were lots of houses that put up hundreds of dollars themselves for 300 games. Most quit this business in the early 70's. If bowlers from day one had gotten recognition in record books and a nice certificate for award scores it would have probably been better.
Agree. I have a hole-in-one as a member of the USGA. Know what I got? A piece of paper recognizing the achievement. Nothing else.
And bowlers can still get the trinket awards for the incremental achievements (100 pins over, etc.). They are provided by the local association. I received something this year for a 299 and 300 from the local association.
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Looking back, it was probably a mistake for ABC to ever get into the awards business as far as high value rings etc go. When I first started bowling league there were lots of houses that put up hundreds of dollars themselves for 300 games. Most quit this business in the early 70's. If bowlers from day one had gotten recognition in record books and a nice certificate for award scores it would have probably been better.
You're right about that. But I think most would be happy with that idea now as long as there is some sort of recognition and recording of the accomplishment that others could see.
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What better reward is there than winning?
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What better reward is there than winning?
Nobody wins all the time!!! And if you want to grow the sport there has to be incentive for those that don't win all the time to stay in it.
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What better reward is there than winning?
Nobody wins all the time!!! And if you want to grow the sport there has to be incentive for those that don't win all the time to stay in it.
I don't win all the time, but winning itself is an incentive.
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What better reward is there than winning?
Nobody wins all the time!!! And if you want to grow the sport there has to be incentive for those that don't win all the time to stay in it.
If you are saying you need kids meal trinkets I am going to laugh
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Just my opinion of course but most of us here are good bowlers. Maybe not 210+ but probably 180+ in most cases. And most of the members of USBC are not.
They are 140-175 bowlers who dream about a 200 and a 300 is an imaginary place they will probably never get to.
I have bowled with bowlers who averaged 135 for the year and will never get better. She loves to bowl but just rolls her 12 lb ball straight down the middle with maybe 3-4 revs end over end. Her high game had been 188 and she had bowled for 10 years. Well she had her lucky game and shot 212. For her, she was on cloud 9. Bowling for 10 years and she finally bowled a 200.
That's the person we should remember when we are here arguing about awards. She got the local assn award for 200 and 75 pins over average. And she was so proud and happy when she got them.
She will probably never throw what we consider an honor score. For her, 200 was her honor score.
And there are way more of her type of bowlers that there are of us. As I have stated before; in reading a lot of these comments here, I see a lot of "WHAT DO I GET"?
Well maybe we should all be looking at what does everyone get and quit being so selfish.
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Just my opinion of course but most of us here are good bowlers. Maybe not 210+ but probably 180+ in most cases. And most of the members of USBC are not.
They are 140-175 bowlers who dream about a 200 and a 300 is an imaginary place they will probably never get to.
I have bowled with bowlers who averaged 135 for the year and will never get better. She loves to bowl but just rolls her 12 lb ball straight down the middle with maybe 3-4 revs end over end. Her high game had been 188 and she had bowled for 10 years. Well she had her lucky game and shot 212. For her, she was on cloud 9. Bowling for 10 years and she finally bowled a 200.
That's the person we should remember when we are here arguing about awards. She got the local assn award for 200 and 75 pins over average. And she was so proud and happy when she got them.
She will probably never throw what we consider an honor score. For her, 200 was her honor score.
And there are way more of her type of bowlers that there are of us. As I have stated before; in reading a lot of these comments here, I see a lot of "WHAT DO I GET"?
Well maybe we should all be looking at what does everyone get and quit being so selfish.
Bingo! The vast majority of our members have been leaving every year for over a decade and no one seems to care. You guys and the USBC need to come down from your penthouse and think about the average league bowler that has never given a rats @ss about the "sport" of bowling. The die hard 1% are going to be there every year no matter what so why cater to them, we need a plan to grow membership. And please stop telling me how great youth is doing because their membership is declining too and has been for a very long time.
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Just my opinion of course but most of us here are good bowlers. Maybe not 210+ but probably 180+ in most cases. And most of the members of USBC are not.
They are 140-175 bowlers who dream about a 200 and a 300 is an imaginary place they will probably never get to.
I have bowled with bowlers who averaged 135 for the year and will never get better. She loves to bowl but just rolls her 12 lb ball straight down the middle with maybe 3-4 revs end over end. Her high game had been 188 and she had bowled for 10 years. Well she had her lucky game and shot 212. For her, she was on cloud 9. Bowling for 10 years and she finally bowled a 200.
That's the person we should remember when we are here arguing about awards. She got the local assn award for 200 and 75 pins over average. And she was so proud and happy when she got them.
She will probably never throw what we consider an honor score. For her, 200 was her honor score.
And there are way more of her type of bowlers that there are of us. As I have stated before; in reading a lot of these comments here, I see a lot of "WHAT DO I GET"?
Well maybe we should all be looking at what does everyone get and quit being so selfish.
Bingo! The vast majority of our members have been leaving every year for over a decade and no one seems to care. You guys and the USBC need to come down from your penthouse and think about the average league bowler that has never given a rats @ss about the "sport" of bowling. The die hard 1% are going to be there every year no matter what so why cater to them, we need a plan to grow membership. And please stop telling me how great youth is doing because their membership is declining too and has been for a very long time.
If you think these type of awards are causing the decline then you need to complain to your local association. It is they who provide those awards, not the national association.
The more I think about it, so what the membership has declined. According to those who hate USBC, they don't have to bowl in sanctioned events. Don't have to pay USBC any money, they still can bowl.
Perhaps the golden age was too big instead of today's bowling being too small. If you don't like the USBC then don't sanction. Even if the total membership goes to less than 100,000, I will still sanction because I feel USBC should be there to represent and support the sport of bowling.
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Just my opinion of course but most of us here are good bowlers. Maybe not 210+ but probably 180+ in most cases. And most of the members of USBC are not.
They are 140-175 bowlers who dream about a 200 and a 300 is an imaginary place they will probably never get to.
I have bowled with bowlers who averaged 135 for the year and will never get better. She loves to bowl but just rolls her 12 lb ball straight down the middle with maybe 3-4 revs end over end. Her high game had been 188 and she had bowled for 10 years. Well she had her lucky game and shot 212. For her, she was on cloud 9. Bowling for 10 years and she finally bowled a 200.
That's the person we should remember when we are here arguing about awards. She got the local assn award for 200 and 75 pins over average. And she was so proud and happy when she got them.
She will probably never throw what we consider an honor score. For her, 200 was her honor score.
And there are way more of her type of bowlers that there are of us. As I have stated before; in reading a lot of these comments here, I see a lot of "WHAT DO I GET"?
Well maybe we should all be looking at what does everyone get and quit being so selfish.
Bingo! The vast majority of our members have been leaving every year for over a decade and no one seems to care. You guys and the USBC need to come down from your penthouse and think about the average league bowler that has never given a rats @ss about the "sport" of bowling. The die hard 1% are going to be there every year no matter what so why cater to them, we need a plan to grow membership. And please stop telling me how great youth is doing because their membership is declining too and has been for a very long time.
If you think these type of awards are causing the decline then you need to complain to your local association. It is they who provide those awards, not the national association.
The more I think about it, so what the membership has declined. According to those who hate USBC, they don't have to bowl in sanctioned events. Don't have to pay USBC any money, they still can bowl.
Perhaps the golden age was too big instead of today's bowling being too small. If you don't like the USBC then don't sanction. Even if the total membership goes to less than 100,000, I will still sanction because I feel USBC should be there to represent and support the sport of bowling.
Terrific...membership participation at that level will require an annual membership of $1000 because all of their tournament revenue will be in the tank.
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Just my opinion of course but most of us here are good bowlers. Maybe not 210+ but probably 180+ in most cases. And most of the members of USBC are not.
They are 140-175 bowlers who dream about a 200 and a 300 is an imaginary place they will probably never get to.
I have bowled with bowlers who averaged 135 for the year and will never get better. She loves to bowl but just rolls her 12 lb ball straight down the middle with maybe 3-4 revs end over end. Her high game had been 188 and she had bowled for 10 years. Well she had her lucky game and shot 212. For her, she was on cloud 9. Bowling for 10 years and she finally bowled a 200.
That's the person we should remember when we are here arguing about awards. She got the local assn award for 200 and 75 pins over average. And she was so proud and happy when she got them.
She will probably never throw what we consider an honor score. For her, 200 was her honor score.
And there are way more of her type of bowlers that there are of us. As I have stated before; in reading a lot of these comments here, I see a lot of "WHAT DO I GET"?
Well maybe we should all be looking at what does everyone get and quit being so selfish.
Brother you read my mind. That's exactly the point I was trying to make. That's why the current mindset of the USBC IMO is a loosing one.
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(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.creativecertificates.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2Fbowling-awards-4.jpg&hash=4f097f9d40f3484bd9f46f3e358a62e39fc4ab40)
There it is right there! Print this out and give to the 140-170 demographic. Still get value on sanction $.
Steven made the point.
Just the administration piece of USBC services is worth more than we're each paying.
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Bingo! The vast majority of our members have been leaving every year for over a decade and no one seems to care. You guys and the USBC need to come down from your penthouse and think about the average league bowler that has never given a rats @ss about the "sport" of bowling. The die hard 1% are going to be there every year no matter what so why cater to them, we need a plan to grow membership. And please stop telling me how great youth is doing because their membership is declining too and has been for a very long time.
I just don't get this mentality. People have been leaving bowling for many reasons, most of which being socio-economic. That's been hashed over too many times to count and is well understood and accepted.
No national organization (USBC or otherwise) is going to come up with some magic plan to "grow membership". If you can't articulate what that elusive plan should be, it most likely doesn't exist.
The answer you don't want to hear is that it's up to you, me, and the centers we bowl at. People like miloraferty (here on BR) who put in the time an effort to get new bowlers involved are the answer. Grassroots efforts work. The problem is that it's easier to moan and complain, which is the reason these topics never go away.
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Bingo! The vast majority of our members have been leaving every year for over a decade and no one seems to care. You guys and the USBC need to come down from your penthouse and think about the average league bowler that has never given a rats @ss about the "sport" of bowling. The die hard 1% are going to be there every year no matter what so why cater to them, we need a plan to grow membership. And please stop telling me how great youth is doing because their membership is declining too and has been for a very long time.
I just don't get this mentality. People have been leaving bowling for many reasons, most of which being socio-economic. That's been hashed over too many times to count and is well understood and accepted.
No national organization (USBC or otherwise) is going to come up with some magic plan to "grow membership". If you can't articulate what that elusive plan should be, it most likely doesn't exist.
The answer you don't want to hear is that it's up to you, me, and the centers we bowl at. People like miloraferty (here on BR) who put in the time an effort to get new bowlers involved are the answer. Grassroots efforts work. The problem is that it's easier to moan and complain, which is the reason these topics never go away.
The only reason the socio-economic argument is accepted is because the sheep blindly accept the crap being regurgitated by the USBC and BPAA. I mean come on, I realize other sports have suffered too but we had roughly 20 million members 20 years ago and we are down to 1.7 as of last year.
I don't expect those like yourself to come up with a solution because you don't even think there's a problem. And as for your strategy...it may be time to try something else because it's not working.
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morpheus,
We all have opinions. You make think some of ours are terrible, and I bet there a people on here that think some of your and mine are terrible too.
Dismissing socio-economics side is foolish.
There is no "one cause" for the decline in membership. There are a lot of contributing factors that led to the decline of membership.
Was or is USBC/ABC a part of those contributing factors. Yes. How much? You and I would probably disagree on the percentage and I won't give out my guesses to simply continue the argument.
So going forward, I believe there is no simple solution to growing membership or slowing its decline.
Just like it took decades for the membership to decline, I think it will take decades for the membership to stabilize and possibly grow.
Do I think we are headed in the right direction. Yes, but very, very slowly.
The phrase the horse has been let out of the barn applies. But the horse also ran away. It's never coming back. The numbers of the 80s will unlikely never return.
The conditions of the world and technology have changed.
Think about this. Why did bowling leagues happen when they happened. Because for a lot of the country, it's really cold in the winter and not a lot of people want to be outdoors. Another reason people got together to bowl; work leagues, factory leagues. Detroit had/has the highest number of sanction bowlers. Why? Factory worker leagues in a very cold climate during the winter. Same all across the country.
Well today, some if not a lot of those workers have had their job replaced with technology. Robot welders doing the job of 100 welders in one 8 hr shift, except the robot doesn't take breaks or eat lunch. In fact, he doesn't sleep. 24x7 if necessary, he welds. Just an example.
And also: There are many other things to do this day and age during those winter months. TV is now 500 channels, not 4 or 20 if you had cable. Never mind playstations, game cubes etc. Now one can stay home, save gas and be entertained when it's 28 degrees outside.
Just examples of contributing factors that aided in the decline of membership.
Easier scoring conditions. Sure, it probably caused a few people to quit too. But I promise, that it away now, and 25% of your current membership will quit too. They like it easy. That horse ran away too.
Bashing USBC does nothing. Yes they made mistakes. We all do. Hell we make the same mistake 3,4 or 5 times. Oops got caught speeding again.
I think they are trying to improve everything about bowling. EVERYTHING. Leagues, tournaments, professional bowling, etc. It all falls under their umbrella, and you may not like it all because you think it doesn't benefit you, when in reality, it does.
I've read people hear saying why should USBC put money into the womens PBA. Well if seeing those ladies on TV gets 2000 little girls nationwide to start bowling in juniors, that helps bowling doesn't it?
Quit bashing and help where you can.
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morpheus,
We all have opinions. You make think some of ours are terrible, and I bet there a people on here that think some of your and mine are terrible too.
Dismissing socio-economics side is foolish.
There is no "one cause" for the decline in membership. There are a lot of contributing factors that led to the decline of membership.
Was or is USBC/ABC a part of those contributing factors. Yes. How much? You and I would probably disagree on the percentage and I won't give out my guesses to simply continue the argument.
So going forward, I believe there is no simple solution to growing membership or slowing its decline.
Just like it took decades for the membership to decline, I think it will take decades for the membership to stabilize and possibly grow.
Do I think we are headed in the right direction. Yes, but very, very slowly.
The phrase the horse has been let out of the barn applies. But the horse also ran away. It's never coming back. The numbers of the 80s will unlikely never return.
The conditions of the world and technology have changed.
Think about this. Why did bowling leagues happen when they happened. Because for a lot of the country, it's really cold in the winter and not a lot of people want to be outdoors. Another reason people got together to bowl; work leagues, factory leagues. Detroit had/has the highest number of sanction bowlers. Why? Factory worker leagues in a very cold climate during the winter. Same all across the country.
Well today, some if not a lot of those workers have had their job replaced with technology. Robot welders doing the job of 100 welders in one 8 hr shift, except the robot doesn't take breaks or eat lunch. In fact, he doesn't sleep. 24x7 if necessary, he welds. Just an example.
And also: There are many other things to do this day and age during those winter months. TV is now 500 channels, not 4 or 20 if you had cable. Never mind playstations, game cubes etc. Now one can stay home, save gas and be entertained when it's 28 degrees outside.
Just examples of contributing factors that aided in the decline of membership.
Easier scoring conditions. Sure, it probably caused a few people to quit too. But I promise, that it away now, and 25% of your current membership will quit too. They like it easy. That horse ran away too.
Bashing USBC does nothing. Yes they made mistakes. We all do. Hell we make the same mistake 3,4 or 5 times. Oops got caught speeding again.
I think they are trying to improve everything about bowling. EVERYTHING. Leagues, tournaments, professional bowling, etc. It all falls under their umbrella, and you may not like it all because you think it doesn't benefit you, when in reality, it does.
I've read people hear saying why should USBC put money into the womens PBA. Well if seeing those ladies on TV gets 2000 little girls nationwide to start bowling in juniors, that helps bowling doesn't it?
Quit bashing and help where you can.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, I too am in the 1% and I had all the rings and awards I care to have a long time ago. But again, the 1% will always be there so why is it so hard to understand that the USBC is excluding the very demographic that should be the focus with #afutureforthesport?
I just don't get how the logic is lost on you guys...
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The only reason the socio-economic argument is accepted is because the sheep blindly accept the crap being regurgitated by the USBC and BPAA. I mean come on, I realize other sports have suffered too but we had roughly 20 million members 20 years ago and we are down to 1.7 as of last year.
I don't expect those like yourself to come up with a solution because you don't even think there's a problem. And as for your strategy...it may be time to try something else because it's not working.
Socio-economic reasons are accepted because they are reality. The USA has lost millions upon millions of middle class manufacturing and support jobs over the past few decades. The vast 'middle class' that fed the endless trough of bowlers has dried up, and you call this reality "regurgitated crap". You should really reconsider the demographics of the average working person of today before sounding off your conclusions.
You keep saying "it's time to try something else" without offering what that something else should be. I know it's always easier to pawn problems off onto someone else, but if you yourself can't articulate answers, what does that say??
I offered a solution that you're conveniently ignoring. Get off the couch and start recruiting yourself. After much pushing, I finally got my daughter and son-in-law to do a mixed handicap league with me, and now they've been happy year round league bowlers for the past three years. What if every USBC bowler recruited 2 others who wouldn't otherwise consider league bowling, no matter what "USBC Strategy" was enacted? The answer is millions. But it takes effort, and it starts with you. You can accept the challenge or continue complaining. It's your choice.
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Bowling saw one of the greatest booms of any activity ever in this country. By any measure booms are followed by busts. The simple answer to the decline in bowling is that the game has much more competition for our leisure time than it did 50 years ago. I like bowling more than golf softball skiing boating. My neighbor across the street probably has a different favorite. That is his right. Last I looked bowling still rated pretty high on the list of recreation activities
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It's a good thing all these economic and social changes haven't cut organized participation by 80% in golf, baseball, football, basketball over the last decade. You guys keep talking about macro changes so there should be a correlation with these other sports. I mean maybe they're down, but not anywhere near 80% so help me out guys, the logic seems flawed.
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Bowling, especially leagues, are not cheap to participate in. if you are paying $15 a night, for 33 weeks that is $495 to bowl. then, if you take serious enough to own your own equipment, that is quite possible to spend hundreds more on a ball or 2, a bag and shoes.
Sure the equipment expense may not be an annual thing for most, but you can't ignore it.
for my summer softball league this year, it was $750 for the entire team. we are planning on carrying 13 members. that is rounding up to $58 per person for the team.
cant speak to golf, but baseball, softball and basketball are pretty cheap in comparison to bowling
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You do realize something like 5000 golf courses closed over the past 10 years. Organized (usga members ) are a fraction of usbc members
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You do realize something like 5000 golf courses closed over the past 10 years. Organized (usga members ) are a fraction of usbc members
I think you might be off just a touch...
The current total of 15,372 courses in the U.S. is down from a peak of 16,052 following a "gradual, but steady, market correction," the report said.Mar 11, 2015
http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/12461331/number-us-golf-courses-steady-decline-says-report
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The same people that want an award for shooting 200 are the same people that think every kid should get a trophy. Good luck changing the way that group thinks.
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If you are going to compare to golf you can't use just USGA numbers because their membership is a different model. There are over 2 million golfers with GHIN handicaps and many others with handicaps in states who's golf association doesn't use GHIN. GHIN is a USGA service, so anyone that has a handicap through this system is paying something to the USGA.
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The number 20 million members keeps being thrown out.
The ABC and WIBC never had 20 million members.
I believe the ABC had about 4.5 million and WIBC around 3.7 million around 1981.
Juniors organizations had about 750 thousand.
There started a decline after that. By the time the USBC was formed there were less than 4 million members total.
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Let's assume you're right and compare the financial side of membership. Looking at financial statements, membership dues revenue dropped 36% for the nine years between 2006 and 2015. Regardless of how you want to look at the decline I think the result is the same in terms of percentage decline.
http://www.bowl.com/About/About_Home/Financials/
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I stand corrected on both the number of courses, and the USGA membership. It does appear that there are no more golfers with handicaps than USBC members with averages.
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Bowling, especially leagues, are not cheap to participate in. if you are paying $15 a night, for 33 weeks that is $495 to bowl. then, if you take serious enough to own your own equipment, that is quite possible to spend hundreds more on a ball or 2, a bag and shoes.
Sure the equipment expense may not be an annual thing for most, but you can't ignore it.
for my summer softball league this year, it was $750 for the entire team. we are planning on carrying 13 members. that is rounding up to $58 per person for the team.
cant speak to golf, but baseball, softball and basketball are pretty cheap in comparison to bowling
We pay $1260 a year to bowl in each league. 36 weeks at $35 a week. Bowling is not a cheap sport.
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We pay $1260 a year to bowl in each league. 36 weeks at $35 a week. Bowling is not a cheap sport.
Dang dude, what kind of league costs $35 a week?
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We pay $1260 a year to bowl in each league. 36 weeks at $35 a week. Bowling is not a cheap sport.
Dang dude, what kind of league costs $35 a week?
All the competitive leagues on Long Island are about that price. The prize funds can be huge. My league 1st place for the year is $2700. There's another league in another house which is $4000 for 1st but they have 50 teams. The prize funds are usually top heavy so you better do well.
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Its a bit misleading to include the prize fund portion of your league fees in the cost of bowling when pointing out how expensive bowling is.
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Its a bit misleading to include the prize fund portion of your league fees in the cost of bowling when pointing out how expensive bowling is.
The cost to bowl is the cost to bowl. I can't change that. My only choices are to pay $35 a week and bowl with my buddies competitively, find a cheaper league in which the league average is 140 or don't bowl. Only the first choice I find fun.
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Both of my leagues are dumping them next year and the one summer league I'm in is non sanctioned...F the usbc.
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Its a bit misleading to include the prize fund portion of your league fees in the cost of bowling when pointing out how expensive bowling is.
respectively disagree. No league that I have ever participated in has ever allowed anyone to bowl for just lineage. I have to pay what I have to pay; and if that includes a prize fund that is still money out of my pocket every week.
admittedly there will be a return from the prize money. in my sport league my team got third place over all. I made back about a 1/3 of the money I paid in.
my bowling league expenditure is still an order of magnitude higher than my softball expenditure, even after taking into consideration the return from the prize funds.
Extrapolate a 12 week softball league at say $60 for all 12 weeks to keep the math simple and that is still only $180 to get an equivalent # of softball weeks versus the cost of bowling. Bowling costs me close to 3 times that for my sport league, after accounting for prize fund return.
I think the cost of bowling is high and a barrier for entry for the possible new guys. The other thing that scares folks off is the length of the season. I have lost potential bowlers because they coach their kids baseball teams in the spring and bowling would conflict.
Here is what one of our local proprietors have done. They took one of their leagues that struggled to fill out and made each third of the season a self contained league. instead of 1 league, in 3 1 week thirds. it was 3 separate 11 week leagues (12 with position round/roll off) given the casual nature and timing of the league, they take 2 weeks off between session 1 and 2 (they try to align this with Christmas and new years) and 1 week off between the 2nd and 3rd session.
almost half the league bowls all 3 sessions. but it is always full and even has a waiting list.
shortening the season allowed new bowlers to try it w/o the 8 month commitment, and reduced the over all cost for trying the league. the weekly fees are still the same, but you are paying for 3 months only.
my local proprietor is building his business and our sport, he isn't waiting for USBC or anyone else to do it for him. if we want to build bowling back, we have to do it our selves. it isn't USBC's job to recruit bowlers, just give us the structure to bowl in level and fair playing field.
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my bowling league expenditure is still an order of magnitude higher than my softball expenditure, even after taking into consideration the return from the prize funds.
Extrapolate a 12 week softball league at say $60 for all 12 weeks to keep the math simple and that is still only $180 to get an equivalent # of softball weeks versus the cost of bowling. Bowling costs me close to 3 times that for my sport league, after accounting for prize fund return.
my local proprietor is building his business and our sport, he isn't waiting for USBC or anyone else to do it for him. if we want to build bowling back, we have to do it our selves. it isn't USBC's job to recruit bowlers, just give us the structure to bowl in level and fair playing field.
I don't necessarily feel comparing softball to bowling is completely fair. Operating a bowling center is significantly more expensive than softball fields.
But I do agree with the length of league preventing some new bowlers from joining a league. 36 weeks is a very long time.
Bowling will have to change some to meet the demands of the newer crop of bowlers. You can't use the league model from the 70s today and expect the same success.
And at the same time, it isn't USBC's responsibility to get new bowlers joining leagues. USBC will try to provide exposure for bowling. But the proprietors should be approaching open play bowlers to see what it takes to get them in to bowl more often. Hopefully it turns into league participation.
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Whether you agree with the original poster or not, this is business 101. If customers (bowlers) do not see value in the services provided by the business (USBC), then they vote with their wallet and find other alternatives (unsanctioned leagues). The USBC's business model very closely resembles franchising in which the franchisor (USBC) doesn't directly sell the product to consumers but makes money from each sale. I think the argument that the USBC has no responsibility here is wrong because they have a vested interest in membership revenue and should be in the business of making our local associations better at promoting the game at the local level. The USBC can't have it both ways taking credit for improving youth, high school, and college bowling but taking no responsibility for overall membership. The board of directors and USBC leadership are completely out of touch with membership and are giving us what they think we need instead of listening to their customers. I mean thanks for bringing back the PWBA but don't we have more urgent needs than creating a 14 week tour that benefits and extremely low percentage of membership?
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Whether you agree with the original poster or not, this is business 101. If customers (bowlers) do not see value in the services provided by the business (USBC), then they vote with their wallet and find other alternatives (unsanctioned leagues). The USBC's business model very closely resembles franchising in which the franchisor (USBC) doesn't directly sell the product to consumers but makes money from each sale. I think the argument that the USBC has no responsibility here is wrong because they have a vested interest in membership revenue and should be in the business of making our local associations better at promoting the game at the local level. The USBC can't have it both ways taking credit for improving youth, high school, and college bowling but taking no responsibility for overall membership. The board of directors and USBC leadership are completely out of touch with membership and are giving us what they think we need instead of listening to their customers. I mean thanks for bringing back the PWBA but don't we have more urgent needs than creating a 14 week tour that benefits and extremely low percentage of membership?
So morpheus, does the PWBA bring attention to women's bowling? Does it show a competitive avenue for women bowlers that didn't exist? And doesn't the success of high school and college bowling show the youth a competitive sport that doesn't rely on genetics to be successful in?
How can you say on one hand USBC cannot get praise for those things simply because middle aged bowlers don't get awards or whatever the current reason for failure is?
USBC has limited funds. Everyone has to agree with that. With these limited funds, they have decided to promote the youth and the women's side of the game. Whether or not this will be the most successful use of funds is to be seen. But promoting the game is intended to increase participation and interest.
And again, each center/association will have differing levels of success with a particular program intended to increase membership. I personally feel proprietors are needed to increase the league participation at the local level. You don't. That is fine, but I have personally seen the difference between several centers, some with active participation in league development and some with none so my views are based on that.
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And one more thing. Do you think new bowlers are looking at the supposed dysfunction of the USBC and deciding not to bowl? And should USBC be more worried about new bowlers or retaining bowlers? Just a thought.
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Whether you agree with the original poster or not, this is business 101. If customers (bowlers) do not see value in the services provided by the business (USBC), then they vote with their wallet and find other alternatives (unsanctioned leagues). The USBC's business model very closely resembles franchising in which the franchisor (USBC) doesn't directly sell the product to consumers but makes money from each sale. I think the argument that the USBC has no responsibility here is wrong because they have a vested interest in membership revenue and should be in the business of making our local associations better at promoting the game at the local level. The USBC can't have it both ways taking credit for improving youth, high school, and college bowling but taking no responsibility for overall membership. The board of directors and USBC leadership are completely out of touch with membership and are giving us what they think we need instead of listening to their customers. I mean thanks for bringing back the PWBA but don't we have more urgent needs than creating a 14 week tour that benefits and extremely low percentage of membership?
So morpheus, does the PWBA bring attention to women's bowling? Does it show a competitive avenue for women bowlers that didn't exist? And doesn't the success of high school and college bowling show the youth a competitive sport that doesn't rely on genetics to be successful in?
How can you say on one hand USBC cannot get praise for those things simply because middle aged bowlers don't get awards or whatever the current reason for failure is?
USBC has limited funds. Everyone has to agree with that. With these limited funds, they have decided to promote the youth and the women's side of the game. Whether or not this will be the most successful use of funds is to be seen. But promoting the game is intended to increase participation and interest.
And again, each center/association will have differing levels of success with a particular program intended to increase membership. I personally feel proprietors are needed to increase the league participation at the local level. You don't. That is fine, but I have personally seen the difference between several centers, some with active participation in league development and some with none so my views are based on that.
Sorry in advance for the long reply...
First and foremost, I don't know why you keep coming back to awards, I'm merely saying listen to your customers. You continue to talk around the issue, but do they bear responsibility for membership increase/decline or not but you cannot have it both ways and that has nothing whatsoever to do with awards.
As for the PWBA, I'm sure it does garner some attention, but other than the board of directors and the USBC, I don't think membership was asking for their return. Professional bowling was healthy when membership numbers were healthy, not the other way around so focus on membership growth and professional sports will follow.
As for youth, I'm all for promoting youth programs, but stop telling me how great junior gold is doing with the only reason entries increased was they removed the minimum average requirement and added new divisions. Youth membership is still declining regardless of the propaganda coming out of the USBC.
As for the dysfunctional nature of our governing body, I think bowlers form their opinion about the USBC based on perceived value of their products/services and many are obviously not finding much or they wouldn't be choosing to stay in the game while finding alternatives like unsanctioned leagues.
From a customer acquisition/retention perspective, both are important but given where membership is currently we should be focused on acquisition, specifically previous members and youth who are active (unsanctioned leagues) or have been recently. Think seriously about the marketing strategy of promoting the highest levels of the game when the vast majority of membership does not care about the "sport of bowling". That type of strategy is generally employed when you can charge a premium for you product/service and bowling isn't a luxury brand so you have to appeal to the masses if you want to get membership growing again. The market is telling us we're doing it wrong and the response from the USBC is just give us more money for the same level of services you currently enjoy.
Finally, proprietors are a key piece to the puzzle, but let's all agree the USBC is run by the BPAA. If they're both in it for a healthy future there are no excuses for a lack of coordinated programs targeted at increasing membership and ultimately league bowlers. When was the last time you saw an employee ask an open play customer if they would like to join a league as they're using a coupon from some marketing campaign?
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The amount of youth league members may be down, but the overall tournament participation is definitely up. Regardless of tournament structure, there are more competitive youth bowlers than 10 years ago. The growth of high school bowling alone is an indication of this. I assume USBC is hoping these youth bowlers will want to compete into adulthood.
As for awards, I only bring that up since that is a common thread in a lot of these USBC discussions. Maybe not from you so I am sorry if it came across like that is what you wanted. It should be apparent USBC cannot support an awards program anywhere near what it was in the past.
And on the subject of asking open bowlers to join leagues, it is done. I have seen it first hand and also did the same when I managed centers. USBC membership as it is marketed to the beginner bowler cannot compete with what a proprietor can offer a league bowler. Does this mean all leagues should be non-sanctioned? I wouldn't say that. USBC offers tournaments for all levels of ability. USBC provides a structure for which the game is competed on. I don't know what type of benefits USBC can offer the new bowler that makes them want to go and join a league. Many centers offer discounted rates for bowling outside of leagues. New bowler can get better. Discounts on in-house food, good for all if your center has decent food. I just don't know what USBC can offer other than their video library which I despise the fact members have to pay for.
I understand some don't feel they are getting value for their dollars. Fine, don't sanction or don't bowl at all then. Many feel what USBC offers is valuable for the amount of many they get ($10 per member). I just don't see what USBC can offer that will make those upset feel better.
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The amount of youth league members may be down, but the overall tournament participation is definitely up. Regardless of tournament structure, there are more competitive youth bowlers than 10 years ago. The growth of high school bowling alone is an indication of this. I assume USBC is hoping these youth bowlers will want to compete into adulthood.
As for awards, I only bring that up since that is a common thread in a lot of these USBC discussions. Maybe not from you so I am sorry if it came across like that is what you wanted. It should be apparent USBC cannot support an awards program anywhere near what it was in the past.
And on the subject of asking open bowlers to join leagues, it is done. I have seen it first hand and also did the same when I managed centers. USBC membership as it is marketed to the beginner bowler cannot compete with what a proprietor can offer a league bowler. Does this mean all leagues should be non-sanctioned? I wouldn't say that. USBC offers tournaments for all levels of ability. USBC provides a structure for which the game is competed on. I don't know what type of benefits USBC can offer the new bowler that makes them want to go and join a league. Many centers offer discounted rates for bowling outside of leagues. New bowler can get better. Discounts on in-house food, good for all if your center has decent food. I just don't know what USBC can offer other than their video library which I despise the fact members have to pay for.
I understand some don't feel they are getting value for their dollars. Fine, don't sanction or don't bowl at all then. Many feel what USBC offers is valuable for the amount of many they get ($10 per member). I just don't see what USBC can offer that will make those upset feel better.
The story of Blockbuster video rental is fairly well known. The market changed and Blockbuster fundamentally kept providing the same services until it could no longer sustain itself. In the real world, companies that fail to evolve go out of business and are replaced by another business model. My point is that the core strategy being employed by the USBC is flawed and if membership continues to decline, this will become an unsustainable business model. Past performance is a pretty good indicator of future success and since the USBC keeps doing the same things they've always done, I suspect we're in for more of the same.
By the way, keeping an attitude of if you don't find value just don't sanction is not going to have a happy ending because we've seen when that road leads. The correct attitude is to listen to your customer and evolve rather than insist you're right until you have no customers.
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Fair enough, though I still don't know what USBC fails to provide those who feel they are inadequate. Perhaps a more defined purpose of USBC and BPAA is required since they are jointly trying to achieve a better sport. What would you tell USBC if you had their undivided attention? If it isn't awards then what is it?
I personally feel USBC should provide the structure of the sport along with showcasing what the sport should represent. Much like other similar organizations.
Also, saying USBC is responsible for the decline in memberships means they (ABC/WIBC) were responsible for the increase in membership during the peak years of membership. But in reality, they weren't responsible for those times. Bowling's boom in participation began with the invent of the automatic pinsetter then again with automatic scoring. It had nothing to do with what ABC and WIBC provided. After all, USBC offers many of the same things.
So yes, USBC should be trying to stay current. Putting more attention to youth I feel is beneficial. Providing a better method for those seeking improvement is something I wish they did a better job with. Have the video library be available for all members at no cost. Oh, and get rid of the current website organization. Provide the template for all association webpages. Nothing I hate more than having to negotiate a different interface for each association.
So those are my personal complaints and somewhat solutions. What would yours be?