Author Topic: Time to STOP! (Read 10858 times)

JOE FALCO · « **on:** December 17, 2010, 08:51:58 AM »

I read all the postings on EBONITE and how they were going to do something to fix the price on there bowling balls. I thought at the time I can see the argument! But these prices are crazy. Ebonite and Hammer balls going for $155 undrilled is OUT OF BOUNDS! I see where the online shops were cutting the throats of the B/M shops but .. now the companies are SHOVING ridiculous prices down the throat of bowlers.

I think it's about time for BOWLER'S to take a stand and start investigating some of the newer companies. If we accept these prices and don't revolt we might as well give up the game. EBONITE and company has lost me as a customer .. don't care how good there advertised balls appear!

Juggernaut · « **Reply #46 on:** December 19, 2010, 09:30:15 AM »

JOE,

Don't worry about making enemies on here. Even with most of the guys I have disagreements with, eventually something comes up that I agree with and support them in. And, many times, they do likewise. It isn't about enemies, it's about opinions, sharing, and learning.

Dave, The GRUDGE, and I have been seeing this from different viewpoints, with each side seeing the validity in their own arguments, but I DO NOT see them as enemies, nor do I see them as bad guys, just people with differing opinions.

EBONITE hasn't really changed their pricing, only the way they handle the "BIG 3" online shops, trying to stabilize the pricepoint at which their merchandise can be sold. Telling someone what they can sell your product for seems wrong to me, but it would be natural for those benefitting from it to support it. If someone is giving you what you ask for your product, it seems wrong to tell them that they can't sell it at whatever price they want, but Ebonite is doing that, and only time will tell how it effects the market.

I don't agree with the policy, will not buy anything they make because of it, and have no problem voicing my opinion of it. Likewise, I have no problem with other voicing their opinions as well.

As for my opinions of proshops, it is probably skewed due to the fact that I have been there, done that. I also know that, if someone is doing it as a full time business and trying to make a full living and support a family doing it, they're going to charge every penny they can and are going to love it when they can force the competition to meet the same pricing structure.

If Kmart could've done the same thing with their manufacturers, WalMart wouldn't have been able to steal as big a part of their marketshare by offering lower prices. Manufacturers were FORCED to sell to WalMart at disounted prices BECAUSE WalMart BOUGHT SO MUCH. If Ebonite starts to feel the pinch from this, THEY WILL CHANGE THIS POLICY. If not, they won't.

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Good transactions list in my profile

jls · « **Reply #47 on:** December 19, 2010, 09:33:31 AM »

quote:
OK .. Thanks! I''m sure this method is beneficial to someone .. wether it be Ebonite, the distributor. the on-line shop, or the B/M shop .. perhaps all .. I KNOW the bowler that was buying from on-line shops is now putting out more money.

It comes down to a gamble by Ebonite .. they are leveling the field on sales so that the Bowler CAN NOT get the brake they were getting through the on-line shop and Ebonite is betting that those buyers will now pay the higher amounts and loose out on the DISCOUNTED PRICES! If they are right YEARLY sales will not decline .. B/M shops will happily sell more of the Ebonite products .. distributors will decrease sales to on-line shops and off-set this with higher sales to the b/m shops .. the only person to pay for this will be the BOWLER! Ebonite did a fine thing .. funny how they do this when they develop two new balls that appear to dominate the game (Taboo and mission).

So many bowlers balked at the price range created by Lane 1 .. now we have another company doing a similar game and we now claim it''s justified.

I''ve made my point and do not wish to make enemies .. I''m through with Ebonite .. I only hope others can see where I''m coming from. I also know that last sentence will inspire some to tear me apart .. but I will disconnect from this topic and your comments will be in vain.

Thanks again for your patience!

Joe, first let me say that I have read your post on this site for years, and consider you a class act...

Now, yes it is true that you the bowler may now pay about $10 more for a HP ball from Ebonite... But what Doug said is true... Many times bowlers are just seeking a low price on the ball as well as the driller...

We see it posted here often..In bowlers talk>>> "i gots my stuff drilled with inserts, a slug, a car wash and lunch from my guy, and all for $25...

Better known as a hole pounder...

Yesterday a customer brought in a Seige that he bought on Ebay... The ball probably did not have 3 games on it... The ball was previously drilled for a left handed bowler... However the MB on the ball was way right, and in a better position for a right handed bowler...

I could tell by the way the ball was drilled that the person did not like the reaction of the ball... So he dumped it on Ebay for about $100...

Now as a pro shop, I would not have drilled that ball for a LH bowler... I would have sought out one with a better MB...For a LH bowler...

The POINT, you ask...This bowler had a brand new Seige. It didn''t perform for him, so he dumped it and took a hit...

But as Doug pointed out, more than likely it wasn''t laid out correctly for him..."hole pounder" and now this person may be down on Brunswick...

This is what Doug meant by Ebonite trying to protect their brands...

Now Joe, at this time one of the best selling balls on the market is the Anarchy. It is selling for $139 online... The top HP balls from Ebonite are selling for $149 online... That''s just $10 more...

Now I tried to explain to you and all why Ebonite did what it did... CO=OP Advertising money... Brunswick offers this... So many online dealers used it to offset their cost on TOP SELLING models from Ebonite...And that is why they were selling so much lower...

Now they can no longer do this...Therefore they must sell the balls at $149...

Now Joe, around here, a person that buys a lot of balls { "a ball whore" } usually is a MONEY BOWLER... He buys new models to make MONEY... Do you really think a true MONEY BOWLER will pass on the mission 2.0 or the Taboo because it might cost him $10 more... Joe my friend, I don''t think so...

Now I''m sorry you feel the way you do about Ebonite''s new policy...It''s your money and you can do whatever you want when it comes to spending it...

But a wise money bowler will not pass on a good ball for $10...Not when HE KNOWS and sees others WINNING MONEY with said ball...

Joe, you used the Lane One example... Their balls were selling for about $180 when others were selling for about $129... Now that Joe, is a big difference...

Since then, Lane One has come down some in price...But Ebonite is only $10 higher than TOP SELLING MODELS from other ball companies...

Now the latest Brunswick release started at $139, and is now down to $133... And I do believe it will go down EVEN MORE... WHY WHY IS THAT...

This isn''t rocket science here... Balls go down in price if they are not selling WELL.........

Now Joe, I want to thank you for posting this thread... Hopefully it will show both sides...The consumer and the pro shops...

When I go to Golf Galaxy to buy golf balls, I pay about $45 for Titleist or Penta''s.... Now I could buy Nike''s for $29...

But I don''t.... Yes I pay a little more for Titleist or Penta''s, but to me, they are worth it.........I see the difference in performance...

In next month or so, I''m sure you as well as most bowlers will be seeing a lot of Taboo''s...

Joe, $10 more, that is all... Trust me my friend, It will be worth every penny...

now

Merry Christmas to all

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jls

Edited on 12/19/2010 11:37 AM

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #48 on:** December 19, 2010, 09:41:06 AM »

DISCONNECT doesn't work .. thanks for the comments ..
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Get Motivated .. get Motiv

J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Juggernaut · « **Reply #49 on:** December 19, 2010, 10:24:32 AM »

HEY JLS,

Does anybody ever win any money with anything other than an Ebonite product?

That always seems to be your argument, that MONEY BOWLERS will gladly pay the difference, because they win money with Ebonite stuff.

That must be news to all the Storm, Brunswick, Global900, Lane#1, and Seismic users out there.

And, are ALL your customers MONEY BOWLERS? Must be a LOT of them.

Seems as though those bowlers are the only ones you ever mention, so are they the only ones you care about or give good service to?

The point of these questions is this: I will venture that a large majority of your business are regular recreational or league bowlers who are buying in at less than the HP level. So why do you always point to the high level money bowlers when trying to justify Ebonites policy?

Is it becaue it only effect the HP level of equipment, and those "MONEY" people are the ones buying the great majority of it?

If so, isn't that a very small marketshare for us to be making such a big stink over? (Yes, this concept DID just occur to me).
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Good transactions list in my profile

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #50 on:** December 19, 2010, 10:53:01 AM »

quote:
Ebonite is trying to protect it's brands and it's reputation.

If this is one of the reasons that Ebonite has changed their pricing policy, I am curious why the other companies don't worry about the same thing thus taking steps to protect theirs also? Maybe I am wrong in saying this, but to me it seems that Ebonite must worry more about protecting their brands than other companies do theirs and am wondering why they do if that is the case?

Then again, maybe they will, but unless I am mistaken, didn't Ebonite try this same thing or something similar 1 1/2 or 2 years or so ago and no one followed them?

I have nothing against Ebonite as I have had success with every Ebonite ball I have bought. I haven't had a bunch of them, but the ones I have had have matched up to me extremely well. I will continue to buy an Ebonite ball when I see one I want such as the current Mission of which I hope to purchase soon. Regardless of price as long as they perform for me, I will buy them.....Performance out weighs price for me.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."

Brick

jls · « **Reply #51 on:** December 19, 2010, 11:33:07 AM »

quote:
HEY JLS,

Does anybody ever win any money with anything other than an Ebonite product?

That always seems to be your argument, that MONEY BOWLERS will gladly pay the difference, because they win money with Ebonite stuff.

That must be news to all the Storm, Brunswick, Global900, Lane#1, and Seismic users out there.

And, are ALL your customers MONEY BOWLERS? Must be a LOT of them.

Seems as though those bowlers are the only ones you ever mention, so are they the only ones you care about or give good service to?

The point of these questions is this: I will venture that a large majority of your business are regular recreational or league bowlers who are buying in at less than the HP level. So why do you always point to the high level money bowlers when trying to justify Ebonites policy?

Is it becaue it only effect the HP level of equipment, and those "MONEY" people are the ones buying the great majority of it?

If so, isn''''''''''''''''t that a very small marketshare for us to be making such a big stink over? (Yes, this concept DID just occur to me).
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Good transactions list in my profile

Sir recreational bowlers, as you put it, seldom get in pots or bowl for money...

And they buy very few balls...per individual.

Now Joe mentioned that he was and is a "ball whore"... Usually bowlers who buy a variety of balls are money bowlers... Now as far as your wild claim that I said all money bowlers use Ebonite.. I did not... More than one time, I brought up the Storm Anarchy.. As one of the best selling balls on the market...

I then compared their price to the price on top selling Ebonite models...And then I brought up the fact that a money bowler will not let $10 stand in his way... And since Ebonite balls are selling for $10 more, their brand name was used...

Both you and Joe stated you were threw with Ebonite... OVER THEIR HIGH COST OF BALLS... And I pointed out for ALL TO SEE, that Ebonite''s HP balls are ONLY $10 more than the top selling model from Storm...

And right now, Ebonite has some excellent balls on the market... And money bowlers are using them... In the up coming weeks, you will see BOO KOO Taboo''''''''''''''''s on the lanes... Not being used by recreational bowlers, but being used by bowlers who bowl to win money...AKA, Money Bowlers...

And a true money bowler will not let $10 stand in his way of making a purchase..

Now I can plainly see what you are all about... You claimed you worked a FEW HOURS a week in some pro shop...And now of course, you are an expert...You know more than all of us FULL TIME PRO SHOP OWNERS...

In another thread you BLASTED ALL PRO SHOPS because your teammate shot a good score with some ball he bought off Ebay...With a weak or tame drilling...Said "Pro shops think they are miracle workers".

You started a thread and bashed all pro shops in it... Saying things like it doesn''t matter how they drill a ball... Cause your friend scored ON THE DESERT with a ball that has a tame drilling on it for a right handed bowler...

So now, according to you, all pro shops are worthless???...

Now my post in this thread were targeted at Joe... I tried to be civil and explain to him the $10 difference...

Then you came on and started with me...

Joe, I tried to explain the small price increase to you...Thanks for listening...

Oh and BTW, JAG, very few rec. bowlers EVEN KNOW about this site... Most who visit this site are not what I would call a Rec. bowler...

And most people buying HP balls are not rec. bowlers...They are usually people who bowl in leagues...and get in pots...

It cost about $20-$25 to bowl in a league in my area... And when one factors in the cost to get in pots... A night of bowling gets costly...

And that is why a TRUE MONEY BOWLER WILL NOT LET $1O stand in his way...

Especially when he can clearly see others scoring with the equipment...

And NO, not every money bowler uses Ebonite...But a lot do...

Merry Christmas...

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jls

Edited on 12/19/2010 2:05 PM

Edited on 12/19/2010 2:10 PM

Juggernaut · « **Reply #52 on:** December 19, 2010, 01:37:10 PM »

O.K., I see the only way to communicate with you where it isn't mis-understood is to do it on a line by line basis, so here goes.

quote:
Sir recreational bowlers, as you put it, seldom get in pots or bowl for money...

And they buy very few balls...per individual.

Exactly as I suspected. thank you for being polite.

quote:
Now Joe mentioned that he was and is a "ball whore"... Usually bowlers who buy a variety of balls are money bowlers... Now as far as your wild claim that I said all money bowlers use Ebonite.. I did not... More than one time, I brought up the Storm Anarchy.. As one of the best selling balls on the market...

I did not make any such "wild" claim. I asked you if that was the case, not claimed that you said it was. There is a difference between me asking and me saying you said something.

quote:
I then compared their price to the price on top selling Ebonite models...And then I brought up the fact that a money bowler will not let $10 stand in his way... And since Ebonite balls are selling for $10 more, their brand name was used...

Both you and Joe stated you were threw with Ebonite... OVER THEIR HIGH COST OF BALLS... And I pointed out for ALL TO SEE, that Ebonite''s HP balls are ONLY $10 more than the top selling model from Storm...

And right now, Ebonite has some excellent balls on the market... And money bowlers are using them... In the up coming weeks, you will see BOO KOO Taboo''''''''''''''''s on the lanes... Not being used by recreational bowlers, but being used by bowlers who bowl to win money...AKA, Money Bowlers...

And a true money bowler will not let $10 stand in his way of making a purchase..

I didn't say I was through with them over their high prices, I said I was through with them for their tyranical sales policy. I don't care WHAT they sell their stuff for, if people want to pay it. What I have a problem with is them dictating to independent businesses what they can sell the items that they legally purchased for with the threat of cutting off the buyers supply.

quote:
Now I can plainly see what you are all about... You claimed you worked a FEW HOURS a week in some pro shop...And now of course, you are an expert...You know more than all of us FULL TIME PRO SHOP OWNERS...

I did work in a shop, but that did NOT limit my ability to learn. It is my desire to know all that I possibly can about the game of bowling, so I am NOT the norm. And, although I may not be an expert or know MORE than you FULL TIME SHOP OWNERS, I do know a lot, maybe just as much. Does only working part time mean that I didn't know what I was doing? If so, please explain.

quote:
In another thread you BLASTED ALL PRO SHOPS because your teammate shot a good score with some ball he bought off Ebay...With a weak or tame drilling...Said "Pro shops think they are miracle workers".

You started a thread and bashed all pro shops in it... Saying things like it doesn''t matter how they drill a ball... Cause your friend scored ON THE DESERT with a ball that has a tame drilling on it for a right handed bowler...

In that other post, the question I asked was "And why do proshops seem to think they are miracle workers". Taken out of context, it may sound dam*ing, when in fact it is only a question in reference to the fact that, if you can just buy a ball drilled entirely incorrectly for you and STILL score, why do we think all the technical stuff we know even matters. Perhaps I worded the question poorly, but that is honestly the gist of it, or was meant to be.

It wasn't started to "bash" shops, only to ask a question into something that has me perplexed. I honestly wish you could've answered it instead of feeding me a line of data that I was already aware of.

quote:
So now, according to you, all pro shops are worthless???...

Never said this either, yet you have inferred it. There are a large majority of shops out there who are NOT customer oriented, and only targetted at lining the owners pockets. I never said ALL shops were worthless. I never said ANY shops were worthless. What I questioned was the value of the accumulated knowledge that we seem to think is so valuable.

There are shops out there that are NOT customer oriented, and designed to do nothing but line the owners pockets. THOSE shops ARE worthless many times.

Unless yours is one of them, you can ignore that fact.

quote:
Now my post in this thread were targeted at Joe... I tried to be civil and explain to him the $10 difference...

Then you came on and started with me...

By asking you some questions, I "started" with you? You sure are sensitive.

quote:
Joe, I tried to explain the small price increase to you...Thanks for listening...

Oh and BTW, JAG, very few rec. bowlers EVEN KNOW about this site... Most who visit this site are not what I would call a Rec. bowler...

And most people buying HP balls are not rec. bowlers...They are usually people who bowl in leagues...and get in pots...

It cost about $20-$25 to bowl in a league in my area... And when one factors in the cost to get in pots... A night of bowling gets costly...

And that is why a TRUE MONEY BOWLER WILL NOT LET $1O stand in his way...

Especially when he can clearly see others scoring with the equipment...

And NO, not every money bowler uses Ebonite...But a lot do...

And this is exactly why I added the statement about "If it is only the HP balls we are talking about, that seems a small percentage to be arguing about", because I know that MOST bowlers do not buy the HP balls.

That thought only occured to me after listening to my own voice about the subject, and I didn't have a problem telling you that it had just accured to me.

I still don't agree with the policy, but now I understand that it effects a far smaller percentage of their sales than I had thought. That does make a difference, but I still dis agree with it.
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Good transactions list in my profile

sdbowler · « **Reply #53 on:** December 19, 2010, 01:44:16 PM »

Since I have not bout a ball in a LONG time mainly because I am not bowling I can't say anything about pricing. There has been and alway will be people who will buy only form their local pro shop and as well as others who will only buy off the internet. Both sides will say the way they buy is better because of such and such of a reason. Now both sides might both be correct. I know it's crazy. The only person who knows if THEY are correct is themselves. The pricing issue will be around as long as there are internet shops. I don't see them going away so i guess this topic will go on forever.
As far as pricing of Ebonite compared to the other companies, just like the last pricing deal Ebonite tried we need to wait and see how it all works out. If I recall they recently started this so it may be to early to tell. I said on their last attempt to level the playing fields for pricing that I am glad to see a company try this. Now the big question will be how this will work in the long run of things. IF it works well you may see other companies doing the same thing. Now there is the flip side of the coin. IF it doesn't work how many people will be mad at Ebonite for trying this and it now working?
There are so many sides to this that everyone will say this company is right and that company is wrong. JLS I know where you stand and you think that Ebonite is out to help b&m shops. I know how you feel about Brunswick. So my question to you is, IF Brunswick would have done this first would you be thinking the same thing?
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Kyle

jls · « **Reply #54 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:56:49 AM »

Kyle, I think it would be great if Brunswick STEPPED up to the plate the way Ebonite did...Also Storm...

But I don''t think it will happen because Brunswick sales seem to be hurting...

Their newest release is already be lowered in price...From $139-$133...Yet Storm''s newest models are still at $139...And selling well..

Joe, Yesterday afternoon I received a text from a bowler, { money bowler } who just shot 299 with his Mission 2.0...Now this bowler has numerous 300''s, so the 299 was no big deal...

What he talked about was he won $600 in that game... When he text me and later called me, that was all he talked about... $600 won in 1 game...with the Mission 2.0...

This is the point I was trying to make... A $10 increase to him means nothing... It will never stop him from buying a ball if he thinks he can score with it, or sees others scoring with it...

Now the reason I bring this up is simply this... Most on this site are not what I would call recreational bowlers...Most are serious bowlers...And serious bowlers usually are all about money won...

And $10 will in most cases not stop them from buying a ball...

Now Joe, I do realize that you may bowl in a senior league where pot money may not be big...So I do understand your concern over paying more for Ebonite''s products...

But I think you stated you could buy 3 balls for the price of 2...Joe, I feel that was a little off... 3 storms balls at $140 = $420... 3 Ebonite''s at $150 = $450... That''s just $10 per ball more...

Now gentlemen, have a great day

Merry Christmas
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jls

Edited on 12/20/2010 10:57 AM

stopncrank · « **Reply #55 on:** December 20, 2010, 09:38:59 AM »

I just dont see how this pricing structure has been beneficial to shops in my area. Maybe if they carried alot of stock it would be, but most shops in my area keep a handful of balls in limited weights and just order the rest.

Times being as tough as they are, most shops here are limiting their risk factor in tying money up in balls that are gonna be reduced in price 3-4 months from now, from any manufacturer. So that means less stock on the shelves. You'll still see WD's, T-Zones and whatever, but I have yet to see any difference in stock from EBI on the shelves because of this in my area anyways.
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Still taking your lunch money one strike at a time, just without a Mission in my bag....

robuster · « **Reply #56 on:** December 20, 2010, 11:20:58 AM »

I think every company wants to protect their product line. I understand what EBO is doing and the why of it.There is a couple of things that need to be cleared up for me,1--When any company sells to the DIST are they out of the picture as far as those balls are concerned,or do they still control the ownership of the product? 2-- Are the DIST just warehousing these balls and collecting the money for the bowling companies and taking a percentage for the handling and shipping? 3--The companies that do not sell directly to the pro-shops ,like the big 3,how is it that they are considered to be serving the b/m shops in any way what so ever.
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Live free or die trying.

Bigmike · « **Reply #57 on:** December 20, 2010, 12:20:48 PM »

What Ebo is attempting to do other than protect there brand is also protect there pro shop operators. There used to be a time when an area like mine had 10-12 shops, some free-standing and some in centers. The thing was all of these stores were profitable. Granted there are less sanctioned bowlers than those days, but most of if not all of those shop operators here in central Ohio are out of the business.

Back then, a shop could buy direct from a manufacturer in quantity and be assured that there would not be new releases for sometimes 2-3 years. As with most retail stores, they would mark it up 100% and sell enough to make a living and even have 3-4 folks on staff to help service customers.

Flash forward: Now there is too much product release and a lot less bowlers to sell that product to. Most of the ball companies get that you now have to sell your service as much as you sell a ball in your store.

The one thing in the last 20 years that I wish would really take off is the need for certification like IBPSIA. I see too many balls brought in by good folks who just wanted something simple like the ball to fit or the plug work to be done correctly or even to have the layout be correct for there spinner or full-roller style of game. We educate them as to what happened and always go out of our way not to "throw someone under the bus". I know IBPSIA certification can be pricey, but most people who walk in do not know nor care. I find this amazing because if I get work on my automobile done, I want to see certification from ASE on the wall or I turn around and walk out right then and there.
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"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to Sally Kellerman, his college professor in Back to School ~~1986

Mike Craig - Storm Products Pro Shop staff -Columbus, OH

sdbowler · « **Reply #58 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:07:36 PM »

JLS thanks for your answer. I thought that was what you would say but was not for sure. I agree that ALL companies need to step up to the plate. Like I said though we need to see how this works out for Ebonite. Said to hear about Brunswick already lowering pricing. I have not bowled in a long time but just looking at equipment line from them since the Inferno's they have not had excellent equipment.
BigMike you hit it on the head with so many different releases from all the companies. I said that to a ball rep from Storm a few years ago in Reno. We were down there for the womens nationals and she wanted to get a Storm ball that was big at the time. Her husband at the time was going to allow her to get it. She asked me if it would be a good idea since it was the end of the season. I said it would be good cause then it would be fresh for next season however there would be new stuff out prior to the next season. The Storm rep just looked at me and asked me what I meant by that. I simply stated that with all the new releases from all the companies that there would be a newer ball out. Needless to say he did not like that.

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Kyle

HamPster · « **Reply #59 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:10:41 PM »

Mike, that's pretty much the long and short of it. Bowling is for some reason just a red headed stepchild. I know people who golf and bowl, and they'll go to great lengths, and spend good money to get quality golf equipment and services, but turn right around and expect bowling stuff for free, or whine and complain the whole time they have to pay anything, so they all go somewhere to get it under the table. Then that jackwagon drills it like an idiot, and the ball gets blamed, because "my buddy knows what he's doing." Maybe Ebonite isn't protecting the pro shops directly, but in order for the good shops to stay in business, they have to help them get all the business they can. Most people won't go and buy a ball out of a shop and take it somewhere else to get drilled. If they buy it there, they drill it there. Even if it's 10 extra bucks of profit for a shop if somebody buys the ball there, that helps, and most likely includes the sale of drilling services and some extras.
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That's just like, your opinion, man.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #60 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:25:31 PM »

FYI

HP EBI is selling at $154-155 according to the opening page. Has been for a few weeks.
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Be good, or be good at it.

Author Topic: Time to STOP! (Read 10858 times)

JOE FALCO

Time to STOP!

Juggernaut

Re: Time to STOP!

jls

Re: Time to STOP!

JOE FALCO

Re: Time to STOP!

Juggernaut

Re: Time to STOP!

Brickguy221

Re: Time to STOP!

jls

Re: Time to STOP!

Juggernaut

Re: Time to STOP!

sdbowler

Re: Time to STOP!

jls

Re: Time to STOP!

stopncrank

Re: Time to STOP!

robuster

Re: Time to STOP!

Bigmike

Re: Time to STOP!

sdbowler

Re: Time to STOP!

HamPster

Re: Time to STOP!

kidlost2000

Re: Time to STOP!