Author Topic: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues (Read 21001 times)

badbeard · « **on:** September 13, 2011, 11:00:15 PM »

high average bowlers can't find a scratch league how about boll a handicap league which has a 116 % of handicap and insist in bowling on a league that you have a chance of losing for a change make your money on brackets and side pots let all teams have a fair chance of winning the league. MAN UP !!!!

United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of

placing bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as
possible for competition against each other.
Does any handicap used by a league equalize competition?
The results of an extensive four year study of handicap leagues -- mixed, all women and
all men -- disclosed that the handicap percentages 75%, 80% and 90% do NOT achieve
this goal as illustrated by the results from the study as follows:
Championship Won by Championship Won by
Handicap Team with Average Below Team with Average Above
Percent Median in the League Median in the League
70 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
75 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
80 0 out of 100 100 out of 100
85 6 out of 100 94 out of 100
90 11 out of 100 89 out of 100
95 24 out of 100 76 out of 100
100 30 out of 100 70 out of 100
Even at 100% handicap, as the above chart shows, the higher average teams or bowlers
still have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships are still won by the higher
average team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league
championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.
You must always look at the difference in averages well as handicap. In the table the
higher average team total is 73% or 223 pins higher than the lower average team.
As shown below, when both teams bowl their exact averages; the higher average team
always wins unless the handicap is 100%, then the teams tie.
BASE 200
TEAM A TEAM B
Average 80% 90% 100% Average 80% 90% 100%
Linda 120 64 72 80 Dave 150 40 45 50
Dick 115 68 76 85 Patti 167 26 29 33
Kathy 95 84 94 105 Scott 185 12 13 15
Jeff 135 52 58 65 Terri 188 9 10 12
Sandi 142 46 52 58 Lisa 140 48 54 60
607 314 352 393 830 135 151 170
Average + 80% = 921 Average + 80% = 965
Average + 90% = 959 Average + 90% = 981
Average + 100% = 1000 Average + 100% = 1000

jimc · « **Reply #16 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:01:35 PM »

I've been bowling in the same handicap league for 15 years. Average is usually between 215 - 220, not that high but for several years running was1 or 2 in the league. The nearest competitor is my teamate. The other 3 are your casual decent bowler of 160 - 180. We've never won the league. I believe a big reason is our league uses 90% of the difference of team averages. Individual handicaps are only used for handicap awards. Any thoughts on that?

The bottom line is handicap leagues are designed to be fun. If a premium was put on winning there would be a major difference in prize fund between 1st and 3rd, (like scratch leagues) and there's not.

Not every high average bowler has the passion and desire to only bowl scratch/tournaments even though they could be competative - just like not every hot shot church league softball player desires to play A league even though they could compete. Fun is the name of the game.

trash heap · « **Reply #17 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:05:12 PM »

Let's be clear on one thing here. We are discussing this handicap issue on those big "Money" Leagues. Although I prefer 100%. There should be nothing below 90%.

Can we agree that in a Mix League Environment (Mostly Fun League) that 100% of "highest average in league" is the way to go? Keeping games close is what that type of league needs.

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #18 on:** September 16, 2011, 01:37:26 PM »

trash heap wrote on 9/16/2011 1:05 PM:
Let's be clear on one thing here. We are discussing this handicap issue on those big "Money" Leagues. Although I prefer 100%. There should be nothing below 90%.

And you know this HOW?
Mr. Beard never makes mention of what type of league he is referring to, only that anything less than 100% handicap is somehow "unfair".

And, as to your comment, how about this: If your average is more than 5% lower than the highest average in the big "MONEY" league, then don't enter it and expect someone to make it "fair" for you by giving you something you didn't earn.

If you want to try to win it, get in and try. If you don't, then keep your money and stay out. But, don't get in with your low average and then expect me to just roll over and give the thing to you by spotting you 116% of my score, just because I might be better than you.

trash heap · « **Reply #19 on:** September 16, 2011, 02:51:51 PM »

Changed reply. (Red)

Let's be clear on one thing here. We are discussing this handicap issue on those big "Money" Leagues. Although I prefer 100% in any handicap league that is using "THS" pattern. There should be nothing below 90%.

Can we agree that in a Mix League Environment (Mostly Fun League) that 100% of "highest average in league" is the way to go? Keeping games close is what that type of league needs.

As I have stated before. Shooting big scores on THS is something anyone that averages 185 - 210 can do. The big games are thrown but there is usually a couple bad games (keeps their average where it is). In my opinion there is more fluctuation in scores with this group of bowlers on the THS then those with higher averages and those in the lower end. Person with low skills does not have ability to exploit the easy pattern, they are just not consistent enough to put up a fight against this group. The higher average bowler skills puts them at an advantage even at 100% handicap.

As far as bagging goes. Lowering the percent isn't going to stop a bagger. They will just lower their average more for the cushion they need.

Just stating the record. I have bowled in scratch tournaments. Only handicap tournments I bowl are local association, states, and a local doubles tournament.

toomanytenpins · « **Reply #20 on:** September 16, 2011, 03:41:13 PM »

I think this is gonna be a long thread. My two bits is as follows.

I have bowled in leagues the last couple of years with cap at 100% of 220. If you have no cap you are more a burden to your team than the person with 80 pins by a long shot. Its pretty demoralizing when someone with 110 pins shoots 800. How often are you with your 220 avg likely to shoot 800,and even if you say once a month if you have to cappers get lucky on the same night and with their cap they shoot seven hundred a piece you lose. Maybee its just me ,but looking at a 300 pin deficit before a ball has rolled kinda zaps my energy. I know I am whining,but I bet I am not the only one feeling like this. I have the wrong attitude,it should be,"attack!" I just havent gotten there yet,beating up on handicappers just doesnt come easy. The level of competition isnt the same and its hard for me to raise my level up when I see such really bad bowling,more times than not ,after a few,here come the pros,and awe they are gonna beat us good ,and so on I usually bowl worse. I want to win,but ...I used to always bowl bad when I bowled against older people and, I know someones gonna wanna slap me,and women. I am learning to seperate and not think about who I am bowling. The flip side to that is before you know it in an attempt to win, you have 0 pins,and as was already said there are no scratch leagues.

Now I doubt, try as I might that I ever avg. 210 let alone 230+,but it really does put more pressure on you knowing you have to to compete. Awe shoot,big dumby,thats why you bowl. Sorry to anyone who read this,time to go bowl 690.

my style, the art of bowling without bowling

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #21 on:** September 16, 2011, 04:03:56 PM »

YES,

we can agree that "fun" leagues are one thing, and "money" leagues are another.

HOWEVER,

where is the incentive for the newer, or lower average, bowlers to work and improve their skill level if you simply "give" them enough free pins that they can keep up with you and, possibly, even beat you, on a regular basis? AND, where is "MY" incentive to continue to get better in order to beat you anyway, when you're only going to demand back any improvements I make in my average?

DOES GETTING BETTER AND IMPROVING YOUR AVERAGE EVEN MATTER ANYMORE?

I want people to bowl, and I want people to have fun and love the game like I have. Nothing would please me more than to see a resurgence in the game, and waiting lists to even get into leagues again. Heck, I used to have to wait on a list for an open lane on saturdays, just to get to practice Thing is, I really don't see taking all the incentive to get better out of the game as any type of resolution.

Handicap is what it is, a way to "give the small guy a chance", not hand him something on a silver platter, and ANYBODY that thinks extremely high handicap %'s based on trying to make things "fair for everyone" are good, are just deluding themselves and trying to justify something that, in their OPINION, is the "right thing to do".

And maybe, Mr. Beard from a town with one 16 lane center, the choices are very limited for the bowlers there, and those "high average guys" don't have any choice except to bowl in those leagues you mentioned, especially when guys like you are turning ALL the leagues into leagues like that.

Sorry if I have offended anyone in this debate, that was never my intentions, but it is something that I honestly believe is being beaten into the heads of bowlers nowdays. No need to learn a lot of skills, just show up, have some fun, and we'll make those mean old "high average" bowlers give you so many pins that you can beat them, because they don't "deserve" to win anyway.

icefiction · « **Reply #22 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:37:33 PM »

It is very obvious from the discussion that there are two main thoughts about this matter:

A- People should actually be encouraged to work hard to increase their ability and skill level, instead of being spoon fed.

B- Making things easier for the less skilled makes them more inclined to participate because they feel they have a better chance at beating someone that is genuinely better than they are.

If you think there are other categories please feel free to add them.

Tex · « **Reply #23 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:19:30 PM »

I was curious as to where our league sets after averages are set to start the year ( we set after 6 games ). Currently league average is 200.15 for 65 bowlers. 38 bowlers over 200 (5-230, 7-220, 12-210,14-200) and 8 in the 190's. That leaves just 19 bowlers under the 190 and a lot of these guys are 180's or high 170's. Only one team does not have at least one bowler with a 200 average. Two have a single 200, one has two 200's. There are 2 teams that all 5 guys are plus and another that will have all 5, just lead off has got off to a slow start (well except for the perfect game he tossed at my team this past week). All others have 3 bowlers over 200. And this is not a scratch league! Makes you wonder why doesn't it.

So, our league is not exactly typical for a handicap league or sure doesn't seem to be from what I hear you guys saying on here. Yep, its a money league by the descriptions given throughout this thread. I guess then it should make sense why we are still at 80% handicap and also why we do difference in team averages instead of from 220 or a set number. The other leagues in our center are all mixed but can't say I have any idea what they use for handicap. They are all fun leagues with little if any money at the end. Oh and if it also hasn't been clear it is still a Men's league only. During the summer we have opened it up at times but most of the time only guys bowl then too. The men part seems to make us unique these days as well. I can see where the mixed leagues would do higher but even then I think 90% is plenty. I am pretty sure our travel league is 90% and there are some serious baggers in that league. I bowled in a 100% league years back and the high average teams had no or little chance to win, just could never make up the handicap no mater how we bowled. Personally I like the league I am in. I am the secretary and have been for longer than I would like to admit. We have never had it proposed to increase the handicap, but no one listens to the rules anyway so don't see it changing.

Roll with 900 Global.

Made in Texas!

badbeard · « **Reply #24 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:02:58 PM »

to bowling Pariah you said

Handicap is what it is, a way to "give the small guy a chance", not hand him something on a silver platter, and ANYBODY that thinks extremely high handicap %'s based on trying to make things "fair for everyone" are good, are just deluding themselves and trying to justify something that, in their OPINION, is the "right thing to do".

Is handicap also a way to give a 10 to 20 % advantage to the high average bowler ? i did not think it was a way to hand the league to the high average bowlers on a silver platter. the reason i started this was to get people thinking as i bowl on a men league which is 90% of the difference of team average. And I bowl on a senior where I get no handicap because I have a 205 average. This is the time of year when bowlers have a chance to make their leagues better if they will speak up in the league meetings. Most have never seen the usbc study or what they recommend they just vote to leave things the way they have been. and then bitch all season. Have a great season and good bowling to you and all who took their time to answer this post. Thanks Badbeard ( nick name from my racing days )

The Bowling Pariah · « **Reply #25 on:** September 16, 2011, 11:51:32 PM »

badbeard wrote on 9/16/2011 10:02 PM:to bowling Pariah you said

Handicap is what it is, a way to "give the small guy a chance", not hand him something on a silver platter, and ANYBODY that thinks extremely high handicap %'s based on trying to make things "fair for everyone" are good, are just deluding themselves and trying to justify something that, in their OPINION, is the "right thing to do".

Is handicap also a way to give a 10 to 20 % advantage to the high average bowler ? i did not think it was a way to hand the league to the high average bowlers on a silver platter. the reason i started this was to get people thinking as i bowl on a men league which is 90% of the difference of team average. And I bowl on a senior where I get no handicap because I have a 205 average. This is the time of year when bowlers have a chance to make their leagues better if they will speak up in the league meetings. Most have never seen the usbc study or what they recommend they just vote to leave things the way they have been. and then bitch all season. Have a great season and good bowling to you and all who took their time to answer this post. Thanks Badbeard ( nick name from my racing days )

HUH?
"Is handicap also a way to give a 10% to 20% advantage to the high average bowler?"

Did you just really say that? Don't you realize the difference?

THE DIFFERENCE IS, THE HIGH AVERAGE BOWLER WENT OUT AND EARNED THAT 10% TO 20% ADVANTAGE FOR HIMSELF THROUGH HIS OWN HARD WORK AND EXPENSE.

He did not have it handed to him on a platter like you seem to want to do with the lower average bowlers that you think "eaarned" it simply by paying their league fees. You want to give them an equal chance to win, simply because they pay the same fees each week? How misguided is that?

Part of it seems to come to light in your statement "And I bowl on a senior where I get no handicap". SO, you are a senior bowler, with a 205 average, that wants the world to make things "fair" for you, so you can stand a chance against 30 year olds with 220-230 averages? HAVE YOU LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY?

There is NO WAY you should be able to keep up with that. Even the great Walter Ray Williams has had to admit that to himself. I'm almost there to the true senior status (51 yrs old), and I want to beat them youngsters too, but I do not want to cheat them out of it. I do hold my own at times, but there is NO WAY I could ever hope to beat them on a regular basis.

You cannot make leagues better by cheating the better bowlers out of the skills they worked so hard to develop by forcing them to give it all away with some bogus definition of "fairness", you can only cause them to either leave your league, or become sandbaggers, either of which is bad for the league and bad for bowling in general, and you STILL wouldn't be able to beat them.

Gunny · « **Reply #26 on:** September 17, 2011, 06:02:03 AM »

Well said Pariah! Handicap is there to get the low avg. bowlers close, and that they must do the rest. That's what I was always taught as a youngster, and that if I wanted to compete or beat them higher avg. guys, than I must practice and learn. I avg around 215, and I pot bowl with them 230+ avg guys, get into scratch brackets against them, and at times I win, and there's times I lose. But I sure as heck don't want it handed to me or them.

I matched up this past week with the league leader in avg. He's been whacking them lately and is averaging 260. I didn't bow down to him and give up. I tried my hardest to beat him and I did all 3 games. I shot 704, and he shot 693. He opened in the tenth the last two games, and that was the break I need to jump all over him. And afterwards we shook hands and he stated good bowling in the tenth to take those two games away.

Most don't have that mentality though. They would rather have the game given to them instead of trying to win it. Every night I bowl, I want to bowl against the best, to not only test my abilities, but bowling the best will make me that much better.

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Nicanor · « **Reply #27 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:14:33 AM »

Why do we talk about evening out the game with handicap? I realize handicap is keeping the game alive and somewhat fair, but what happened to the best man/women win? I know thats what scratch leagues are for, only if there were scratch leagues anymore. Giving handicap should be a way to keep scores close, not to give advantage to the lower average bowler that can get lucky with a couple of strikes and beat you because of handicap.

I think leagues need to have handicap, but not at a rate to scare off high average bowlers. There needs to be a medium where the handicap bowler is competitive, but not set up to win, and the scratch bowler that really needs to work hard and win.

Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)

badbeard · « **Reply #28 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:37:44 AM »

i don't care if I don't get handicap on the senior league. you are taking this too seriously as i said before this was to get minds opened up. not to pit the great talented young gun against the older bowlers well past their prime. if You want the advantage as a high young bowler you have it but when you are older like 70 and you no longer have the speed you once had and can not score because your hand shakes now maybe you will understand, sorry to see you only see the world from your side of the fence but as we all do if we bowl as long as we can you will cross over that fence and see the other side. bowl well score well be all that you can be

Tex · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2011, 09:56:31 AM »

One thing in all the low vs high average on here that I don't recall seeing is the odds of a lower average bowler bowling over their average. It just seems to me that for one thing a for example 220 average bowler has a maximum 80 pins they can shoot over. The odds of that bowler doing that is greater than in the past, but still not likely. Take a 170 average and they could shoot 130 over and odds are only slightly lower these days that they won't do that, but there is a good chance they will shoot 80 over for a 250 game. That difference in odds a bowler will bowl over their average is what makes the 80% make more sense. The 170 bowler only has to shoot 204 to make up the 20% if the scratch bowler shoots average. I would think the odds of that is pretty good with todays scoring enviroment. I might even toss out it is more likely the 220 will bowl under average or at least has a greater chance he will shoot under than the 170 or will shoot under by a greater margine.

Does that seem at least logical? Maybe this is the part that makes the 116% seem rediculous.

Roll with 900 Global.

Made in Texas!

toomanytenpins · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2011, 12:50:54 PM »

it does, in my experience,happen quite more frequently that a person averaging 120 shots 50 pins over their avg.then a person averaging 220,even 200. I am a 200 avg. bowler and that is more becasue of the occassional good game than even consistentcy. I have as many bad games as I do good games,when I dont shoot avg. we lose.When I shoot 20 pins over the results are usually better but not always. If I shoot 140 what happens. If a 120 avg. bowler shoots 100 thats still 200 and I have so much further to fall on a bad night the results do add up to a loss more times than not.

my style, the art of bowling without bowling

Author Topic: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues (Read 21001 times)

badbeard

to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

jimc

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

trash heap

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

The Bowling Pariah

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trash heap

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toomanytenpins

Re: to all high average bowlers on handicap leagues

The Bowling Pariah

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icefiction

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Tex

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badbeard

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The Bowling Pariah

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Gunny

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Nicanor

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badbeard

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Tex

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toomanytenpins

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