Post by: Pinbuster on October 02, 2003, 05:33:24 PM
My definition of a professional athlete would be one who primarily makes their living by the sport they are engaged in, particularly during the active season of the sport. By my standards many so called amateurs are really professionals. Many part time regional players would not fall into my definition. They have never gotten a check in a PBA event nor are they likely to. And they will never make a living at it.
In bowling one is only considered a professional if they join the PBA. The requirements for joining PBA, I feel, are far too low in terms of average. I would think the bar today should be at least at 220 maybe higher. I know I’ll here from bowlers who will claim the bowl in brickyards and no one averages 220 and in a few (very few) cases that might be true. But I would be surprised if most of the successful full time national tour players couldn’t average 220+ on that condition. It is amazing how a good pro can make a condition the normal house bowler cannot hit look easy.
The PBA is going to an all exempt tour next year but up till then what other sport can you compete on it’s major league stage by simply paying a fee? None that I’m aware of.
I really think the PBA exempt tour is good idea in that you have to earn your way on now. The biggest problem I have with the system as currently defined is that too many players are protected. With only 64 slots available each tournament, 50 are from exempt players, 7 will have special exemptions given by the PBA, and last 7 are for the local regional players and sponsor exemptions. The last seven will never qualify for the next year, so you only have 57 bowlers going for 50 slots open the next year. Those are pretty good odds especially when some of the 7 exempt can’t compete anymore due to injury or age. The exempt number should be around 40 giving more regional qualifiers a chance to move up.
Post by: seadrive on October 03, 2003, 09:44:41 AM
The THB with a 205 average would get slaughtered in the PBA, so why does he qualify for the PBA card? Really, house lane conditions are to the point now that I think you should have to bowl a PBA regional tournament as a pre-condition to membership.
If you can average 200+, maybe even 190+, on a PBA condition, then you deserve to be a member. OTOH, if you find that you're averaging 170, and missing simple spares because you can't throw the ball straight, you know that your game needs work before you qualify for the card.
--------------------
seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 03, 2003, 12:23:15 PM
Seriously though, I don't think avgs. from leagues should be used at all, due to the THS. Set a criteria where an avg. has to be set in specific tournaments held on professional patterns (regionals). After X many games if your avg. is at or above X, or you have placed higher than X in X many tounaments, you are eligible. I think there should also be a clause in there that you must have a "character recommendation" as well (I think there's already one, correct me if I'm wrong).
--------------------
9-
Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!
Post by: channel surfer on October 03, 2003, 12:46:57 PM
--------------------
My Bowling Clinic Site: http://channelsurfers.vze.com
ASK A PRO:http://channelsurfers.vze.com/atp.shtml
www.bowlersdream.com - save an additional $3 off any $100 order by simply typing in CSB into the coupon code area at checkout.
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 03, 2003, 12:52:25 PM
quote:
There are PBA members out there that dont even know much about the science of bowling balls.
I would venture to say there are football players that could not explain the physics behind what it takes to kick a 50 yard field goal, and golfers that couldn't tell you exactly how that titanium clubhead and graphite shaft help them hit 300 yards, but that doesn't stop them from being the best in their game. As long as a bowler can knock down all 10 pins every frame, why should it matter if they know how the ball is made and what causes it's reaction on the lanes?
--------------------
9-
Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!
Post by: scotts33 on October 03, 2003, 08:06:23 PM
Scott
Post by: NoNeed4Revs on October 03, 2003, 09:45:38 PM
As far as the all-exempt tour, it's being very shortsighted. The problem is that it promotes a weakening of the amount of talented players that are not currently bowling the national tour. Ponder this...
Say you are trying to qualify out of the western region and you have to take first place in the region to get an exemption onto the national tour. The most you can make as a regional pro is maybe $6000-$8000 a year. This means that besides having to bowl almost every event in the region, you have to hold down some sort of job to support yourself. How big do you think the talent gap will get between the regional guys who have to split their time between an occupation and professional bowling, and the national tour guys who live the sport 24 hours a day and make a living doing it?
The reason this sort of exemption and farm system works in the PGA is that you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the lower level tours, without even being one of the top players. The golfers who are working to get into the PGA can focus all their energy on golf and not have to worry about supporting themselves, thus raising the talent level across the sport.
In the short run the exempt-only system in the PBA will add prestige and look good, but in the long run it's going to weaken the talent on tour and screw many promising players in the process.
--------------------
Proud owner of a 111-111-111 triplicate series. And a Winnie-The-Pooh spare ball.
Post by: Platinum Bowler on October 03, 2003, 09:50:09 PM
quote:
hmmmm.. I think you should also hold a certian average, but you will also have to take a test. There are PBA members out there that dont even know much about the science of bowling balls.
Wow, now thats a smart idea........... Not.
______________
From the 909, this was B-Car.
Post by: s1nger1 on October 03, 2003, 10:03:45 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on October 04, 2003, 09:16:34 AM
Just as in all sports the fans are the ones who support it and without them it will go away.
I couldn’t pay a fee and play a game on a minor league baseball team but I could bowl in a national tour stop.
I wouldn’t want to bowl in a regional pro-am and draw some “PRO or PRO‘s†who are really nothing but locals with high averages. And why would I pay admission to see mostly the same guys bowl. Few will and that is why the regional’s are really nothing but giant pot games. Our association has many PBA members who would not be ranked in the top 50 against amateurs in our association, that is not professional material to me.
At even the lowest levels in any other sport the PRO’s will still be able to beat virtually all the local hot shots with few problems. But in bowling since largely it is a case of do you want to pay the money for membership, there are many locals who could beat at least 1/3 of the field.
As far as the exempt tour. They will be holding a qualifying tournament that goes over 5 days and 5 lane conditions. As I understand it the top 7 will qualify for the tour. Assuming that it will draw hundreds or entrants it will be a tough way to get out on tour and many a good player who simply had a bad block or bad week will have to pack up and wait a year to try again.
Post by: Pinbuster on October 04, 2003, 12:30:31 PM
But I don’t believe that is an excuse to allow players who are not really pro caliber to join those ranks and declare themselves pro’s.
The fact is a PBA is an organization trying to make money not necessarily trying to identify the best in the sport. So they open there membership to players who cannot really make the grade.
Post by: seadrive on October 04, 2003, 12:51:33 PM
I agree that many a talented bowler never tried his hand at the pro level because of the lack of money. I strongly disagree that we all know "many in our local association" who could compete with the pros.
First of all, there's no way to compare their abilities to pros, since your local hot shots are all bowling 3-4 games a night on a wall. It just ain't the same as bowling 50-60 games over a 3-4 day period on a tough shot.
Secondly, you can't learn to bowl on tournament conditions by bowling on a wall in a league, so to a man, every one of these local phenoms would take a 20-40 pin average hit out on tour.
With more money in the pot, you'll get more talent out there, and better competition, but make no mistake about it; the PBA pros are the best bowlers in the world. The top 100 PBA guys would make mincemeat of Joe 240-average league bowler.
--------------------
seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: Game In a BoxLC on October 04, 2003, 02:23:51 PM
--------------------
I finally figured out how to score well on a wall. Heres what you do. Get lined up in practice and then just miss on purpose. Yes miss whatever line you found in practice, if playing 15, hit 14, or 13, or 16. Whatever you do, don't hit 15.
Post by: DON DRAPER on October 05, 2003, 12:18:34 AM
by the way, brian voss became a pba member when a 190 average was the minimum requirement. now the minimum is 200. besides, the 190 average he attained was shot on TOUGH lane conditions across europe---far tougher than the average newcomer to the pba saw.
i'm not convinced that many non-professionals would do that well on the pba tour. the abc masters and the bpaa us open are open to amateurs and professionals alike and it's rare for an amateur to win( let alone do well ) at these two tournaments. chris barnes, robert smith, patrick healey, jr., rudy kazimakis, brian kretzer, etc., all struggled for awhile until they learned what it really takes to compete at THE highest level of bowling.
Edited on 10/5/2003 0:35 AM
Post by: SrKegler on October 05, 2003, 01:15:31 AM
Why worry about average requirements. You guys have all talked before about how easy some houses are, you've also talked about the brickyards that still exist out there. Why should the guy bowling in a brickyard averaging 200 be denied the chance for a card. To a certain degree, averages have very little to do with ability.
Lets just do away with the average requirement, let anyone with the money buy a PBA membership. Under the new exempt tour, they are still going to have to qualify for the tour through the regionals or the open tournaments each year anyhow.
--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Post by: 10 In The Pit on October 05, 2003, 04:44:39 AM
I agree that 200 seems kind of low for a PBA material number, but then again I can walk into several houses within a 60 mile radius that nobody carries a 200 average in. So, maybe 200 isn't such a bad number after all...but, I know of a ton of 220+ averagers who wouldn't stand a chance in the PBA environment, yet I know of a couple of low 200 averagers who just might stand a chance against the big guns. Basically, you really have to look at each one on a case by case basis, and the actual average doesn't tell the whole story.
It's really tough to set down a specific guideline on what it takes to be PBA material. The only thing that I'm sure of there is that I'll never hold a PBA card, unless I just care to donate to the cause! Instead of running with the big dogs, I stay on the porch.
Post by: joegunn on October 05, 2003, 07:17:45 AM
In the dark ages, the five bowlers with the highest 42 game average got to bowl for the title, with the highest average for the week guaranteed a 2nd place finish. And if memory serves me correctly, some of the current stars, Williams, Duke, Voss and Weber, seemed to do OK, while at the same time allowing 160 bowlers a week to chase their dreams without making a full time commitment.
Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky, but if the original PBA would have promoted the game and spent money marketing the sport like the new regime, it may have survived.
Post by: seadrive on October 07, 2003, 10:27:36 AM
That's where the money is, not in collecting paltry annual dues from Joe Bowler.
The exempt tour is basically saying to 95% of the membership, "Go away, you're not good enough to bowl on the big stage of the new PBA."
There's an opportunity here for someone who wants to start up a new membership organization. Anyone interested?
--------------------
seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Edited on 10/7/2003 10:37 AM
Post by: BadShot on October 07, 2003, 10:44:26 AM
a good example from another sport is golf. there are over 25,000 pga professionals. you have to be able to shoot 75-78 to pass the playing test, then there's an apprentice program of 2-4 years to become fully certified. you don't have to be able to compete with touring professionals.
if there's a beef with becoming a pba member, it's that the only prerequisite is averaging 200. wouldn't it be nice if pba pro's not on the tour were better trained in marketing, inventory management, teaching, ball dynamics, etc.?!?
also, i am against the fully exempt pba tour next year. there should be a certain number of spots in each event reserved for qualifiers. again, they do this in golf, as well as in tennis. pba organizers are afraid of this concept . . . heaven forbid a qualifier beats walter ray in the first round!!! it happens occasionally in golf and tennis, but who doesn't root for the underdog sometimes?!?
let's get the pro's accredited, and give the good bowlers a "chance" to compete with the big boys!
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 07, 2003, 12:50:24 PM
quote:
As for the few of you who have NEVER bowled on tour out here telling everyone that you know of a number of amateurs in your area that would do well in that environment I can only laugh at how clueless you really are about this subject!
Please don't try telling me that only the people who are currently on the tour are good enough to be there. I am sure there may be some exaggerations about how many locals there are that could make the show, but I do believe there are some who could and choose not to. Seriously, think about it. Not everyone is willing to commit to life on the tour week to week. Besides, they're probably happy to clear a few hundred bucks a week from league brackets and small time tourneys - all the while still being able to go home and sleep in their own bed every night.
I don't think this is a slap in the face to the pros at all - nobody said it was easy or that the Pros were anything but the best. It was simply stated that there are people out there who, in all probability, would stand a good chance at being competitive on that level. And if there isn't, then Professional Bowling will come to an end when the current Pros retire.
--------------------
9-
Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!
Post by: 9andaWiggle on October 07, 2003, 01:47:29 PM
quote:
I'm not and I don't understand why you came to this conclusion when I CLEARLY stated otherwise!
I went back and re-read your post - a couple of times to be sure, and you did state otherwise in the last sentence. However, your last paragraph comes across as a bit defensive towards people who speculate that "Joe Bowler" is good enought to possibly make it if he tried.
quote:
As for the few of you who have NEVER bowled on tour out here telling everyone that you know of a number of amateurs in your area that would do well in that environment I can only laugh at how clueless you really are about this subject! This is another example of the lack of respect that todays professional bowlers receive! There might be a few that could exceed especially if they have the work ethic required to be a top pro but those will be VERY FEW and until they actually do it NO ONE should make claims that they would!
I'm not sure if you meant to come across that way, but that's where I read into it what I posted. Personally, I think such statements are similar to the beginning of the ball season when people say "man, the Cubs are going to win the pennant!" Nobody really thinks they will, but it's nice to believe it could happen!!
--------------------
9-
Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!