BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: 12XSECH on January 16, 2016, 01:09:23 PM
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What happened? Someone got their feelings hurt? Can't discuss the lousy Usbc here? I wouldn't care if they folded. Another sanctioning group will take over. People act like we need them, they need us and that's how it works. A member suggested to them to raise the fee....ok..what if another member suggested to lower the fee? Give me a break. This is and was the worst organization that ever tan bowling. Again, its not the 5 bucks, or 1 dollar..its we got nothing in the past and now they want more for doing less.
It's a joke and the joke us on the bowlers. When is the last time the Usbc inspected a lane at anyone of your locations? Case closed.
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See no reason why the topic was locked.
As for the USBC, I don't mind paying for product. I strictly believe that you get what you pay for. The problem is, the proposed pay is being sought without telling us what we are buying into. No disclosed plan whatsoever for how the additional dues would be used. That leads me to believe that the USBC is afraid to disclose the intended plan because they fear that the general membership would not go along with it.
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My guess is someone at the USBC knows a site administrator here and asked for the topic to be shut down. Have to control the message...keep the sheep in the dark, can't have independent thought questioning the USBC.
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UBA all day
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Come on morpheus, I doubt that was the case. The OP felt we weren't getting anywhere I guess and decided to stop it. Though I don't agree with locking it. I didn't see anything get personal or anyone get attacked.
But I do want to remind you, the proposal for a dues increase wasn't from USBC. It was from a member. This is why there isn't any information telling the members what the money will be used for. Perhaps the delegates will require a proposal for the use of the money to determine if they will approve the increase or not.
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You're probably right, it was a completely unsolicited proposal by some random dude out of the goodness of his heart and no one at the USBC or BPAA had anything to do with it.
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Lanes are sanctioned once a year by the local association (volunteers and board members)
You want to make a difference get involved with your local association. They are now responsible for awards as well.
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You're probably right, it was a completely unsolicited proposal by some random dude out of the goodness of his heart and no one at the USBC or BPAA had anything to do with it.
Yea. I thought that explanation was smoke and mirrors too.
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USBC is what bowling has become a joke.
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Some people, EVEN RANDOM MEMBERS, get the idea that the USBC is going to go belly up if something is not done. They can't keep bleeding funds into programs that have NO returns ( LIKE AWARDS) without getting into trouble eventually. Just like your home budget, you have to put your money towards your obligations first, THEN you can do stuff like give aways with whats left. Thanks to economic changes, and no price increase in YEARS, USBC doesnt have the discretionary funds they once had to fund those "give away" programs.
Like it or not, the USBC is what keeps bowling as a nationally regulated activity instead of letting it become a regionally, or locally, unregulated activity where every little "burg" you come across plays by their own set of rules. You think cheating and sandbagging is bad now, try a world with no governing body and see how that one works out for you.
Like it or not, when membership goes down, that does not mean administrative costs go down, it just means that, without a dues increase, the money you have to operate on dwindles.
There once were close to 4 MILLION sanctioned bowlers. Now we're down to what, 1.5 million sanctioned bowlers? That's close to a 2/3 reduction in bowlers, so a comparable refuction in funding, yet you expect the USBC to still be able to operate at the same levels?
C'mon man, you're smarter than that.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't WANT a dues increase either, but I do feel like we are getting to the point where bowling is either going to become an unregulated activity with few "safeguards" for its participants if something isnt done.
When the original ABC was formed, they took a highly unregulated sport with diferent standards and playing rules from one area to the next, and turned it into a real sport with real standards and real rules in order to, as best possible, ensure that all bowlers EVERYWHERE were playing the same game.
When I started bowling, the fee was $5.00, but there was 4 million of us, so that was $20,000,000 in the 1980's. Now it is down to 1.5 million at $10.00, so that is $15,000,000 in 2016 dollars. Thats $5,000,000 dollars less and 30 years of inflation later, and you still expect the same "bang for your bucks"? Where else are you going to find that?
How about your car? In 1982, you could get a small car for around $5,000-$6,000 dollars, but not today. That same car will run you $15,00-$20,000 now. (Nissan Sentra)
How about housing? Food? Clothing? ANYTHING? Geez, even bowling balls were only $75 for a top of the line model, now they costs over $200 in many cases, yet we pay that happily.
Bowlers. We've got to be some of the cheapest people on the planet. And whiney too.
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Bowlers aren't cheap. The avg season cost over a thousand dollars, balls 150 - 200 and people have several. Bowlers just don't like being ripped off. Someone said membership is down 2/3 Rds..why would that many people leave a great org like Usbc? The answer is...their not great. They are not needed.
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"They are not needed".
OK then, what is needed? Do we need a national governing body? If not, who will regulate the sport? The bowlers? Heck, they're the ones breaking the rules in the first place!
If not the USBC, then what? A new organization? How much do you think it will cost to get that up and running on a national level? And what happens when they can't kiss our butts and give us everything we want plus run the business on a $15,000,000 budget?
Ever heard the old axiom "It takes money to make money"? Without some financial "clout", it is hard to make inroads or get lasting results.
Besides, we're only talking $5.00. Why not try it and see what happens? At worst, if they are still ineffectual, it only cost a pittance to find out, and we can always move forward from there.
Has the USBC made some big gaffes and goofs? Sure they have, I'm not trying to say they are blameless. What I am saying is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and the USBC is what we already have. If we have to start a totally new thing, we can, but lets try to fix what we've already got first, if we can. It will be easier, and cheaper, in the long run.
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It's only 5 dollars. It's only 1 dollar etc...that's not the point. The point is they've done next to nothing with the money they get...now they want to more of nothing and get more money to do it. I play baseball in an adult league, we are not sanctioned. The league is run by the creator of the league and there are leagues all over the country. A league can govern itself. There is no need to have to be dragged along by a failing org like Usbc. They are a failure. It's simple, they need us, we don't need them to bowl.
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It's only 5 dollars. It's only 1 dollar etc...that's not the point. The point is they've done next to nothing with the money they get...now they want to more of nothing and get more money to do it.
How do you know what they've done? Is it that they don't do what you want them to, or that they didn't do anything for you personally?
I work for a company, and have been in the grocery industry for nearly twenty years, and I still have no idea what all they spend the money on because I don't personally run the business, so I don't know exactly what it takes to make it run correctly.
I play baseball in an adult league, we are not sanctioned. The league is run by the creator of the league and there are leagues all over the country. A league can govern itself.
That's great, but USBC isn't some local guys running a single league, they're a large national association that attempts to assure that ALL leagues are regulated and run correctly. If all the people running leagues were completely honest, that would be great, and things would be fine. Problem is, they are not.
There is no need to have to be dragged along by a failing org like Usbc. They are a failure. It's simple, they need us, we don't need them to bowl.
Here you are correct, we DON'T need them to bowl. If you just want to cosmic bowl, open bowl, fun bowl with friends, beer league with buddies, stuff like that then I get what you're saying. But, if you want a nationally regulated, and internationally recognized SPORT, you need a governing body.
You want bowling to be a sport, or just an activity? I prefer it as a regulated sport, even if they don't get everything right.
The cost of living goes up, and so does the cost of running things. We can't expect them to continue to operate at the same levels as they did in the past with less comparable income. It just isn't possible.
I say give them a raise and see what happens. If they still suck after a couple of years, we can still kill them then.
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The baseball league I play in national. It's MSBL men's senior baseball league. We don't pay a sanction fee to national office. We have tournaments all over the country year round. You work for a grocery company... That's great! How much do YOU pay them? I'm suspecting you don't pay them anything and they don't need you...you need them. That's the difference. Just because a league isn't sanctioned by the Usbc doesn't mean it's cosmic bowling so get real. You walk into a center and see a league with 30 teams...are they bowling differently because they are a usbc member? The answer is no. The Bowling center is still there, the teams are still there with or without the Usbc. The scam from them has gone on long enough. They are a membership driven business that is failing and lost two thirds of its membership base.
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You don't pay a sanction fee for your league to MSBL, but I'm guessing you pay an entry fee into the tournaments with no ROI, other than probably a bat bag that they either got donated or at a highly discounted rate, correct?
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According to the MSBL FAQ's there is a yearly fee.
How much does it cost to join?
This varies from each league as field, umpire and administration costs differ based on location and the quality of fields used. The national MSBL registration fee is $26 per player and that is paid once per year. All other funds are handled at the local level. For more information, please contact the local league President in your area.
So at least $26 a year for national + the local fee.
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Yes a yearly fee that the team pays. We also get insurance in case someone is injured on the field. The league officials set up umpires and team / league schedules...The usbc does not offer that or do that. You cant compare the two. The baseball league also gets the fields permits from town fields and school fields. Does the usbc arrange bowling centers? For the fee that the baseball players pay we get back way more then what usbc offers. We get fields, schedules, insurance, umpires, discount on uniforms and gear a league / national magazine, prizes, tournaments etc...there is no comparison. For the usbc membership what do we get? What do they do? The MSBL also donates to cancer research...does the usbc? MSBL membership is up every year. They run leagues 18 and over 25 and over, 35+ 45+ and 52+...Again their membership is up...why is the usbc membership down. People have to stop thinking that the usbc is some sort of security blanket and the league bowling will end if the usbc is not involved...The league will still be there! Take a look at the UBA...Im pretty sure they run their own organization and they are doing well as far as I know.
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UBA all day. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. You should look into the Underground Bowling Association. Jerseys, nicknames, tour stops, singles, doubles, trios, handicap, scratch, money, money, and money!
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Yes a yearly fee that the team pays. We also get insurance in case someone is injured on the field. The league officials set up umpires and team / league schedules...The usbc does not offer that or do that. You cant compare the two. The baseball league also gets the fields permits from town fields and school fields. Does the usbc arrange bowling centers? For the fee that the baseball players pay we get back way more then what usbc offers. We get fields, schedules, insurance, umpires, discount on uniforms and gear a league / national magazine, prizes, tournaments etc...there is no comparison. For the usbc membership what do we get? What do they do? The MSBL also donates to cancer research...does the usbc? MSBL membership is up every year. They run leagues 18 and over 25 and over, 35+ 45+ and 52+...Again their membership is up...why is the usbc membership down. People have to stop thinking that the usbc is some sort of security blanket and the league bowling will end if the usbc is not involved...The league will still be there! Take a look at the UBA...Im pretty sure they run their own organization and they are doing well as far as I know.
OK.
For $26 a year you get all that. Sounds like a great deal.
Now, tell me what the USBC could do if we all paid $26 a year instead of $10? According to your theory, they would just waste it. And you might be right. But, there is no other way to find out other than do it and see.
I also get that you're fed up with them, and you have that right. When people, or organizations, do dumb things, they deserve to be called on it. But, I believe that with the way things have gotten in the last few years, USBC has seen the other side where they could become obsolete if they under perform or under achieve, and I don't think they would let that happen.
I could be wrong, but we should try it to find out, shouldn't we, at least before we totally abandon ship?
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You don't get all that for $26. You pay fees for each league and tournament. It's far from pay $26 and go play baseball with all those benefits.
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Yes a yearly fee that the team pays.
" The national MSBL registration fee is $26 per player and that is paid once per year.All other funds are handled at the local level."
That says per player. so no different than USBC. A national fee + local fees.
The league officials set up umpires and team / league schedules...The usbc does not offer that or do that.
The bowling league officials set the leagues schedules (the USBC has league schedules that leagues can use) as for umpires bowling has foul judges if the league would appoint them.
The baseball league also gets the fields permits from town fields and school fields. Does the usbc arrange bowling centers?
USBC sanctions houses
You cant compare the two.
Just did.
People have to stop thinking that the usbc is some sort of security blanket and the league bowling will end if the usbc is not involved...The league will still be there! .
If the Usbc ends no the leagues won't end.
But as time goes by they will all change and a lot not for the better. If you think the house proprietors or the ball companies can do whatever they want now, see what happens with actual zero regulation.
Now you'll probably have lots of little local associations spring up as time goes by. But the standards from house to house will become different as time passes.
Until those local assoc. start joining together and form a larger one (just like how the ABC/Usbc got started) and set the standards everyone uses.
When that happens it won't be any different then, people are going be saying "I'm paying too much and not getting enough back.".
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iTS NOT "ALL THAT FOR THE 26 bucks...We pay a roster fee of $125.00 for the year. For the 26 bucks the league sets up the schedules, organizes the umpires (2 per game) organize national tournaments, get the field permits etc... its a lot for the money we pay. The USBC is not 10 bucks like someone said...Maybe the national office gets 10 but I think we each pay $21.00 total usbc membership. But still nobody has said one time what the national office does. I can see having a local office where they handle local issues...What does that national office do for the local leagues? What do they organize for the bowler? Like someone else said...check out the UBA if you dont know about them...Im not a member so Im not pimping it. Just letting you know that there are other orgs out there can sanction or run bowling...Its not only the usbc.
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UBA all day. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. You should look into the Underground Bowling Association. Jerseys, nicknames, tour stops, singles, doubles, trios, handicap, scratch, money, money, and money!
UBA:
What is my financial commitment for starting a UBA Team/Franchise?
"To form/create an official UBA Team/Franchise you are going to need a minimum of $700.00. This $700.00 covers the creation of your official UBA team logo, your $125.00�processing�fee and it also covers your first 10 UBA team jerseys.
There is also a yearly $400.00 Franchise Fee"
Team size:
How many bowlers do I need to start a team?
Nine (But we highly suggest that you have at least 15 people.)
Okay the Usbc could do that and offer the same things, they just got to drop the $15-$20 sanction fee.
Then just get the 9-15 players for your team, pay $700 up front and the team pay about $400 sanction fee every year there after, USBC is good to go then!
Lets see with 9 players that works out to a bout $44 a year
The MSBL, UBA offer more because they charge more.
Everybody wants the USBC to offer more by charging less.
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12xsech,
Spend 10 minutes on bowl.com to familiarize yourself with all the USBC does. You can argue the point all day long, but the USBC does all of what your baseball league does and more, maybe just not for you personally.
Maybe the USBC needs to have different levels of membership for league and tournament bowlers and/or charge per league that an individual participates in.
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UBA all day. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. You should look into the Underground Bowling Association. Jerseys, nicknames, tour stops, singles, doubles, trios, handicap, scratch, money, money, and money!
UBA:
What is my financial commitment for starting a UBA Team/Franchise?
"To form/create an official UBA Team/Franchise you are going to need a minimum of $700.00. This $700.00 covers the creation of your official UBA team logo, your $125.00�processing�fee and it also covers your first 10 UBA team jerseys.
There is also a yearly $400.00 Franchise Fee"
Team size:
How many bowlers do I need to start a team?
Nine (But we highly suggest that you have at least 15 people.)
Okay the Usbc could do that and offer the same things, they just got to drop the $15-$20 sanction fee.
Then just get the 9-15 players for your team, pay $700 up front and the team pay about $400 sanction fee every year there after, USBC is good to go then!
Lets see with 9 players that works out to a bout $44 a year
The MSBL, UBA offer more because they charge more.
Everybody wants the USBC to offer more by charging less.
minimum of 9 bowlers. The team I'm on has 30 bowlers. Some teams have a hundred bowlers. There is no limit.
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Let us not forget the move to Texas, which was totally necessary. How much did that cost us again?
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From what I read UBA isn't trying to be a governing body. Their handicap tournaments call for you to use your highest USBC book average.
UBA is not a substitute for the USBC.
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From what I read UBA isn't trying to be a governing body. Their handicap tournaments call for you to use your highest USBC book average.
UBA is not a substitute for the USBC.
the UBA is not trying to become a sanctioning body, currently. But I believe they will be within the next 5 years.
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If the UBA is all about what I saw on the video on their homepage, then no thanks.
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If the UBA is all about what I saw on the video on their homepage, then no thanks.
it's not for everyone. But the membership is growing, rapidly. Storm is an official sponsor and has created a team. Many PBA bowlers are apart of the UBA as well. It's all on house shot also. Trash talking, bowling and money. But let me be the first to say, you don't have to talk the talk when you bowl in the uba. But the team atmosphere is unlike any other in bowling. Trust me on that.
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I started the topic and I decided it should be locked. -- JohnP
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Its my ball and Im taking it home! Thats what you sound like.
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Let us not forget the move to Texas, which was totally necessary. How much did that cost us again?
No one could have expected the market to do what it did then. Corporate taxing structures are much more business friendly in Texas than in Wisconsin. Plus there is no state income tax. So in theory, it is better in the long term. Downside is the initial capital needed to facilitate the move.
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12XSECH - Welcome to my ignore list. -- JohnP
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Here is my pitch for the USBC. Your league has $2000+ in funds (most have $10,000+). You pay $10 per year to insure the funds. If a league officer decides to run off with the money you still get your share. As long as you want a prize fund then you need to have the fund bonded (insured). For me I expect to get $150+ in prize winnings, so the $10 protects me. I hope to never need it. For you financially interested, I put in $12 per week to the prize fund and the $10 covers 32 weeks of that level of donation. So that is $384 of coverage for $10. If I was in an additional league I get more coverage for the same amount.
If you want to bowl in more than just a league (or more than just scratch) then the standardization of rules and a recognized average is also a benefit.
If the annual fee needs to be $15 for the bonding to be solvent then I would still pay it.
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At what point does membership stop supporting a broken system that's been ineffective for decades. Fix the system and bring some accountability to the good old boys at the BPAA/USBC that have been abusing the system for years. I fully realize that the board of directors and BPAA/USBC leadership don't care what we want because they think they know best, but take a look at the membership decline over the last two decades and let me know how that's been working so far.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result...I for one have seen enough of the same thing, I'm ready for change.
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John P...Im not gonna sleep tonight now....You have me on ignore..OMG what a turd.
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Whining about what the USBC does and does not do for you means you should get out there and be heard 12XSECH... Help grow the sport or not.. But being behind a keyboard isn't helping your cause :)
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Bradley, I'm working on it...might work, might fail...we will see.
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Let us not forget the move to Texas, which was totally necessary. How much did that cost us again?
Bingo. Not to add building the training center in Arlington that cost millions where they could have done something with Kegel instead for a fraction of the cost.
Not to mention how many women's tours have been started up (and failed) on the members dime?
Look, I wouldn't mind a price increase for dues if I had any confidence in the USBC on improving the sport, not totally destroying it with inept decision making.
I've read the discussion boards on Facebook and it seems like the top .5% believe that they are entitled to milk the system dry. Guess what. If the USBC goes away, along with Nationals, that is a cash cow for them that also goes away because instead of thinking long term....they just want to get theirs today.
Last I checked, the average USBC is still 170-something. In order to even start attempting to fix the perception of what a lot of people think about the organization, you have to get the average bowler back on board.
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Are people seriously whining about 5$? How much do you spend in Alcohol at a bowling alley during league? Have on less drink on one night and you got your 5$
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Why define an intellectual discussion, for the most part, as "whining." It is one thing if one chooses to give away 5 bucks, another thing if one is being hoodwinked out of 5 bucks.
Whether it was 5 bucks or 5 cents, if we are going to be charged, we have a right to know what we are paying for.
Now how is that whining?
Are people seriously whining about 5$? How much do you spend in Alcohol at a bowling alley during league? Have on less drink on one night and you got your 5$
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Are people seriously whining about 5$? How much do you spend in Alcohol at a bowling alley during league? Have on less drink on one night and you got your 5$
Using that logic, send $5 to my paypal account and I'll make the sport better...it's only $5 and you know exactly as much about how your money will be spent as the USBC will tell you.
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So every penny you spend of every paycheck, every cent of taxes, you know where all of that actually goes? I find that hard to believe.
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Are people seriously whining about 5$? How much do you spend in Alcohol at a bowling alley during league? Have on less drink on one night and you got your 5$
Why yes, yes they are.
$200 a ball for several balls? No problem.
$150 for shoes? No problem.
$200 for a bag to carry your 5 $200 balls? No problem.
$20 a week to get in brackets? No problem
$20 a week to get into high pots? No problem.
$5 a YEAR to support the bowling organization at a sustainable level? NOW it's a problem.
[sarcasm]
$5? Are you crazy? How DARE they ask me for $5 to help support them in their endeavours that I don't know exactly what they want it for and exactly what they're doing with it!
Geez, they're already robbing us blind with that $10 thing, and now they want $5 more? I don't think I can afford that much for the nothing they do for me.[/sarcasm]
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Nailed it on the head Juggs, the hypocrisy of bowlers. Proves to me over and over again, the only problem with bowling is the bowlers themselves.
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Given the track record of the organization over the pat 20 years, I think the burden of proof is on the USBC if they want more money. They've proven to be inept in pretty much every area and there is no accountability. So yeah, I don't trust them just as you wouldn't take me at my word and send me $5 to make the sport better.
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Maybe USBC should try allowing membership to have a voice. If they want a dues increase, send out ballots to each and every member with proposals as to what and why they want an increase. Let the membership vote on what they want and what they don't want. Keeping us in the dark as to why they want an increase is not the right way to do business. It probably would not work as we saw how electing a president got messed up in counting votes, and sure USBC could falsify numbers in there favor, but membership should have a say to approve any increase or decrease in dues. I am all for an increase of it is helping the game, but not for an increase to give them pay raises or put into a training facility that the majority of there membership cannot access. In today's technology, no reason why they could not get a list of proposals and email a ballot to each member or even put it on their website and each member log in and gets one vote on all proposals with their USBC member ID. Any proposal that does not have 51% does not get passed.
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Maybe USBC should try allowing membership to have a voice. If they want a dues increase, send out ballots to each and every member with proposals as to what and why they want an increase. Let the membership vote on what they want and what they don't want. Keeping us in the dark as to why they want an increase is not the right way to do business. It probably would not work as we saw how electing a president got messed up in counting votes, and sure USBC could falsify numbers in there favor, but membership should have a say to approve any increase or decrease in dues. I am all for an increase of it is helping the game, but not for an increase to give them pay raises or put into a training facility that the majority of there membership cannot access. In today's technology, no reason why they could not get a list of proposals and email a ballot to each member or even put it on their website and each member log in and gets one vote on all proposals with their USBC member ID. Any proposal that does not have 51% does not get passed.
I agree with this, but that would actually require an effort from the USBC. Not to add that I wonder how many members would actually take the time to go online and actually vote?
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Maybe USBC should try allowing membership to have a voice. If they want a dues increase, send out ballots to each and every member with proposals as to what and why they want an increase. Let the membership vote on what they want and what they don't want. Keeping us in the dark as to why they want an increase is not the right way to do business. It probably would not work as we saw how electing a president got messed up in counting votes, and sure USBC could falsify numbers in there favor, but membership should have a say to approve any increase or decrease in dues. I am all for an increase of it is helping the game, but not for an increase to give them pay raises or put into a training facility that the majority of there membership cannot access. In today's technology, no reason why they could not get a list of proposals and email a ballot to each member or even put it on their website and each member log in and gets one vote on all proposals with their USBC member ID. Any proposal that does not have 51% does not get passed.
There are some on here who would complain USBC wasted all that money on postage and paper for something that won't be returned by the bowlers.
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At $10, it's the cheapest annual fee for membership in any organization. You can't even get a fishing license for $10. You might as well be saying, "well, I want steak and lobster for $10." Then when they can't do it and say we need more money for that, "What? Can't even provide me a meal for $10 bucks and now you want more?" Yes. They want more to be able to provide adequate services, which they aren't being allowed. Sanction fees have not raised in a decade. You know how much more expensive stuff is now? How are they supposed to provide services with no money? How many people here have gone a solid decade without a raise at their job or switching jobs to get a higher wage? $10 was never enough to begin with. I bet it takes half that just to get all your information processed and your sanction card sent back to you. The majority of you spend more than that at the bar in just one week.
At $10, that's 19 CENTS a week, or just under 3 CENTS a day. You seriously expect to get something done for that?
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Once again guys, it's not about how cheap the membership is or how little the increase is...it's about having some accountability for the way money is being spent and how that benefits growing membership and the sport of bowling. Remember this is a membership organization so where is the transparency and accountability for decisions being made? You guys just want to throw money at them without any real plan which is why bowling is in the toilet today so why will this time be different...did the same inmates running the asylum suddenly get smart?
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USBC lost touch with the average bowler years ago. They don't even know who the average bowler is any more. Worse than that, they don't care. They throw money at things that 90% of the bowlers don't care about like the olympics pipe dream or the women's tour. Bowlers don't watch bowling. They don't care if there's a women's tour, nor do they care if bowling is on TV.
All bowling needs is a governing body. That's it. Manage the rules. Take care of things like lane certifications. We don't need to pay for Team USA. We don't need to pay for their training center. We don't need to pay for ads on the PBA. Everything they've been doing to "save" the sport has done nothing. Why are they still doing the same stuff and expecting a different result? Scrap the organization. They are more concerned with taking care of the elite than they are even listening to their membership.
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For those who are anti-USBC, can I ask how you got involved with bowling? What brought you to the sport?
If we look at other sports to see how they managed an increase in membership we see many of the same things USBC has tried to do. Even though a lot of people don't like the comparison, USGA (golf) and USTA (tennis) support the professional side of the sport. They also support both men's and women's events. They also have training centers for their respective sports.
But now, we have a portion of the bowling membership that feels these things do not support bowling in a positive way. That these are wastes of money. Golf membership rose significantly during times of professional personalities. From Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus to Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods. And the future of golf seems bright with McIlroy, Spieth and Fowler. Tennis was the same way with Connors and McEnroe, Sampras and Agasi all the way up to now with the Williams sisters.
Without USBC providing these types of things, the participation will decrease faster than it is by far.
The main problem with the future of bowling is the lack of participation in the organization by the youth of the sport. Youth in the sense that delegates and the hierarchy of the organizations are retired elderly. Not saying they are out of touch completely, but their idea of a sport may be tied to what it has always been. If you want things to change, then you need to participate. You need to become a local association officer. You need to be a part of the change and not complain about the direction while continuing to bowl your once or twice a week saying nothing.
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The problem is that most would rather complain than actually become involved in trying to improve, it is much easier to sit continue to say that the USBC and BPAA have brought about the decline of bowling.
At work we always tell our team if you are going to bring up a problems you also need to bring some solutions. In other words instead of just complaining participate in the process and help improve the situation.
Mark
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Been involved in with the local association for over 27 years. USBC has in the past ask for a dues increase and where question why they needed it and NEVER could explain what the money would be used for. Currently they only care about the top 2-3% of the membership the elite (tournament)bowlers. An have totally forgotten about the average 80-90%(league bowler). They dump the awards program and send information to the local membership saying know it is up the local to have the program (which a very high percentage cannot afford). Because we have less finance than they do. They will not listen to the smaller association at all or for that matter the average bowler. We have not had a field rep in my area since 1993 or 95 (abc days). Last time I talk to a USBC in person was in 2005 at the meeting held in my state to explain USBC to us (the start). They require us to run the local association has a business. Well in business you have to take care of your customer(membership). They are also a business they have forgot about the customer. They grade the local on a few things each year. One of them is the local required championship. Even a 1 or 2% drop is a F grade if i remember correctly. Let see the national tournament is dropping at 10-12% a year (700-800 teams, 3500-4000 people a YEAR). An they keep doing the same thing. They tell us if we are getting F grade we need to change are approach to get more people involved. They will get a big bump for the Vegas but the next year in Reno it will be back down again. In business when you lose revenue you have to cut program that are the most costly. The first cut in awards was only a cut of $700,000 (achievement awards) then came the Honor score to once a lifetime (Nothing has been furnished on what that is costing know). Prior to once in a lifetime they budget $2-2.5 millions dollars). But they keep wasting money on the Olympic push (never going to happen). Team USA (mostly pros). Your average bowler DOES NOT care about all the program that USBC has that does NOT affect them directly (Awards). A push for the $5 will end up costing them more members (funds) than what they will make up with a $5 increase. The leagues will just vote to not certified or they will quit. Because only 10-20% of the bowlers take part in tournament (certified average). An non certified league are still using the USBC rulebook.
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The current system of leadership and decision making has been broken for a very long time but no one is going to fix it because if the system held people accountable we would have a very different group of people in charge. Decisions are made by the board of directors who are volunteers, no one to blame there while membership declines every year for the last two decades. My personal favorite, decisions are made by the "task force" so no one can be hold them accountable. Sorry guys, this organization needs real change, not more money to squander. The board system is ridiculously in effective and if this were a legitimate company, those making decisions at the USBC and BPAA would be fired long ago. But hey, let's throw another 4 million dollars a year their way and so they can put more logos on race cars and expand the PWBA meanwhile we have a website that's an embarrassment to the sport. Complete and total mismanagement...how about you guys look at the scoreboard for the last two decades because the USBC is 0 for 20.
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Am I the only one that thinks dumping money into Team USA and PWBA is a good thing?
Look, at this point, you're not going to get 30-40-50 year olds to just decide "you know what? I'm going to commit an entire year of my life to bowling." Likewise, I have friends that ski and invite me along, and at this point the maybes have turned to no, because I have no desire to spend a bunch of money on an activity I'm not sure I'll like and keep doing. That's the danger with any expensive sport, and bowling is one.
The programs that USBC runs for Team USA, olympics, PWBA, PBA, etc have nothing to do with you and aren't going to get you or any other 30-50 year old to start bowling. But it DOES have an effect on kids. Kids dream, and often go hard after sports they believe they can reach the highest level at. Gen X and Gen Y may be a wash, but we can still save the sport long term if we start the millennials into bowling early.
I can't say how it's working elsewhere, but it sure works here. Lots of youth leagues, and lots of competitive young kids going off to bowl collegiately (and for a select few, Team USA).
It's ironic that the "lazy" generation of millennials are the only demographic of bowlers that seem to want to be challenged by the sport.
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I think having the PWBA is great, I just don't think the governing body of the sport should be in the business of running a professional sports organization. If the PWBA were a viable product that could stand on it's own then it wouldn't have failed in the first place. Team USA and amateur/youth events should be supported by the organization and I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think there are many conflicts of interest when the governing body of any sport is so dependent on revenue generated by running tournaments leading to decisions that may financially benefit the organization at the expense of membership. The goal of the USBC at this point is to find ways to generate more revenue from a continually shrinking membership base and there is no long-term plan to grow membership. If I had any confidence they could significantly improve the current situation I would gladly support a dues raise...but unfortunately either no one is capable or no one wants to be accountable for a plan/budget they just want money with no accountability.
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What you have to remember is that the USBC is in a position of trying to increase membership and participation so the organization can stay afloat, yet their customers are also customers of someone else, and that someone else doesn't care how the money goes into the cash register as long as it does.
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They've been trying and failing to increase membership for two decades...I don't think any amount of money can fix stupid.
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I'm not arguing how the USBC budget is spent, but if you fault the USBC for the membership decline you need to spend some time in the bowling business. The USBC is dependent on a group in which the marketing of their business for most of them is unlocking the door and putting flyers on the counter.
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morpheus,
Who do you think should be ultimately responsible for the number of USBC members? Should it be USBC going door-to-door trying to drum up new members? Or should it be the proprietors going lane-to-lane during open play trying to get new members?
The problem is the proprietors might be making more money per lane per during open play then they are during league. Many believe bowling as entertainment is part of the reason for the decrease in membership. When I started bowling, leagues were the bread and butter of the bowling industry. Bowlers bowled in more than one league and they practiced away from the league. Bowling for fun wasn't anywhere near as popular. Now we have centers where if there isn't a league on the floor the lights are turned off and music is blaring. Not quite the environment for practice. Which in turn can cause some bowlers to not care as much about their game and eventually quit the competitive side of bowling.
The relationship between USBC and BPAA seems to have caused a split in the types of bowlers. And right now, the BPAA side is "winning" if you want to call it that. The two organizations share marketing (if I remember correctly) and thus the goal of that marketing is getting butts in the door. But not necessarily for leagues.
If local associations or proprietors want to increase their league base (for monetary reasons) that is when USBC membership will increase. USBC can showcase the sport of bowling through Team USA, PWBA, High School Bowling, Collegiate Bowling or any other way they can all in hopes of trying to convince the person on their couch to bowl competitively. But once they are in the center, many times it falls on the proprietor to take the next step.
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I'm not arguing how the USBC budget is spent, but if you fault the USBC for the membership decline you need to spend some time in the bowling business. The USBC is dependent on a group in which the marketing of their business for most of them is unlocking the door and putting flyers on the counter.
I've continued to say this again and again...throwing money at a problem without a plan is never the answer yet that's the option being presented. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
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How about continued operations without having to cut any more services? All the cuts that were made weren't done just because someone wanted to, it was to keep the organization going.
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Happy to consider it, please justify the expenditures, prepare a budget/benefit analysis before asking for funding. Financials for 2014 can be found here, 2015 hasn't been published yet but it doesn't look like they're closing the doors.
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/2014USBCAnnualReport.pdf
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Back in the early 2000's, when they were talking about merging the various bowling organizations, there was plenty of discussion here and on other forums about it. I was doing an internet search for that and ran across an article that I had not seen from 2014.
Seems like it would fit here.
http://www.examiner.com/article/hostile-usbc-takeover-escalates-ruining-bowling-for-americans
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Back in the early 2000's, when they were talking about merging the various bowling organizations, there was plenty of discussion here and on other forums about it. I was doing an internet search for that and ran across an article that I had not seen from 2014.
Seems like it would fit here.
http://www.examiner.com/article/hostile-usbc-takeover-escalates-ruining-bowling-for-americans
The linked article sounds like someone who lost their job and is bitter about it.
Or a pre-teen girl ranting about someone she was BFF's with yesterday and is mortal enemies with today...
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Wow, five plus pages of responses, and the only take-away I have from this thread is that some members of this site are real douche canoes who claim to be organizational and financial experts, yet they can't put together consecutive sentences without making 3rd grade grammar errors. I love 99% of the bowlers out there; the other 1% is full of a bunch of whiners and know-it-alls who are still ticked off that they can't line their junk drawers with 4-7-10 patches and 700 series coasters anymore. Some people really need to grow up. ::)
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That goes both ways Gene. Not everybody that is less than thrilled fits your description, but people always resort to calling names when they have no other points to make.
The whole point of the merger was to solve the money issues of the membership loss. Why hasn't that worked? Why do they need more money? Some of us actually understand business and would love to have some sort of explanation/proof of why they need more money and what exactly they are going to do with it. If you find that an unreasonable stance to take, feel free to just give them some of your money. I'm sure they'll take a donation as long as you don't ask them what they are going to do with it.
I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you need to grow up. It is possible to have valid concerns with USBC without wanting another key chain. Why is it that anybody that has the nerve to question the great USBC is automatically a whiner?
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I should go the USTA, my softball leagues, and other places and demand to get 2006 pricing in 2016. Do people in here actually expect dues to remain the same indefinitely?
There is a lot to be said (good and bad) regarding the USBC and bowling, but I find it hard to believe that anyone can truly think that this increase is out of line.
They should have just said they are raising dues because of the economy. At least people wouldn't be able to hide their cheapness and anger behind some manufactured principle ( which seems to keep changing in this thread after the intelligent rebuttals of the ridiculous expectations)
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That goes both ways Gene. Not everybody that is less than thrilled fits your description, but people always resort to calling names when they have no other points to make.
The whole point of the merger was to solve the money issues of the membership loss. Why hasn't that worked? Why do they need more money? Some of us actually understand business and would love to have some sort of explanation/proof of why they need more money and what exactly they are going to do with it. If you find that an unreasonable stance to take, feel free to just give them some of your money. I'm sure they'll take a donation as long as you don't ask them what they are going to do with it.
I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you need to grow up. It is possible to have valid concerns with USBC without wanting another key chain. Why is it that anybody that has the nerve to question the great USBC is automatically a whiner?
The problem is that it's not about having concerns about the USBC. It's about $5. I have concerns about the USBC too, but they're still worth $15. It IS possible to have concerns without demanding full transparency.
I'm really curious what every other company buys that they know what every dollar spent is for? Even donations to charities have to cover expenses...
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I would question any organization that has been as ineffective as the USBC for the last two decades...but apparently this is an emotional discussion so carry on gentlemen.
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I'll give USBC $50 if they can show they need it and deserve it. As of now, they've done neither.
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An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it?
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An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it?
Because the few values they provide are worth $15 and can't be easily replaced.
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I would question any organization that has been as ineffective as the USBC for the last two decades...but apparently this is an emotional discussion so carry on gentlemen.
Not to pick on you specifically morpheus, but this statement keeps me asking the same questions.
1. What do you feel USBC should be providing they don't already?
2. What do you feel USBC should do differently?
3. Can you give an example of a way to increase membership (since that is what so many people feel is the main responsibility of USBC) that USBC has not considered?
I just find it appalling that so many are so adamant about horrible USBC is or has been for the past 20+ years (even though it is only 11 years old). This entire topic has been only a bitch session for some with nothing of substance coming from those same people as far as a solution is concerned. All I hear is, "USBC sucks, they can't do anything right. I don't know what to do either, but gosh darnit, USBC sucks."
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Hank....spot on. Although I may not agree with everything, I sure am not running down to Texas, give up my day job, move my family, and try to tell the USBC folks how to run the business. For all we know, there are serious roadblocks within the industry none of us are aware of unless you have been in an USBC execs shoes.
SPM...you are spot on as well. I think we can take ANY company in the world and pick apart what they do and determine that there is something that they do not do well, even Apple, Microsoft, etc. As for USBC...try as you, they, or anyone might, my kids and many other kids are simply more interested in a SmartPhone, gaming, other sports, etc rather than bowling. So many options today that regardless of the amount of advertising or even the best ideas in the world from the smartest people for a cheap price could stop the loss of kids and adults to other aspects of our society today.
I want the PBA to be back on ABC every Saturday at 3 Eastern. Problem is that was almost 20 years ago. Since then the digital age exploded, how many more channels do we have now to pick from compared to 25+ years ago when bowling enjoyed good TV ratings, so even a great product with an unbelievable pay structure may not draw in a great audience.
I think the biggest problem is not the digital age, but getting people to leave home and go somewhere. I can walk out my backdoor and shoot hoops, hit/throw a baseball, hit some golf shots, etc. However, to bowl, I have to drive somewhere and leave home. What am I going to turn on when I watch TV? Something I can walk out my door and try myself or something I have to pack the family up for, spend $$$, and then drive home after 45 minutes or so (not league)? I am going to be more interested in the sport I can try in my backyard for nothing more than I already have invested and try to emulate what I see on TV.
There is no model from anyone, regardless of how much we pay that will solve that. There is no going back from the Digital age. We can try to integrate digital tech at the bowling alley, but that still requires the person (family) to drive to the bowling alley rather than stay at home.
Look at fantasy Football and other Fantasy sports. Someone with a little or no knowledge can sign up and try to win lots of cash. For someone to do that bowling, you have to plunk down a significant investment first to get your equipment, spend more getting better, spend more bowling in a league/tournament, and hope that at the end of the year you get a few bucks back.
However, back to my first point agreeing with Hank, the services USBC provide today is well worth my $$$ each year, plus $5 or $10 more per year.
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The Usbc is in financial trouble. Their books need to be looked at by an outside accounting firm. They will find out where money us being wasted or lost. To increase membership, the Usbc has to do a better job with promoting the sport. They need to be more involved with ESPN on the telecasts. Last weeks high school bowlers was a joke. That's NOT what people want to see. Also how about getting a better time slot? One not up against the NFL? If the Usbc wants to control the sport, they have to be more involved in promoting it. Those are my suggestions.
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That goes both ways Gene. Not everybody that is less than thrilled fits your description, but people always resort to calling names when they have no other points to make.
The whole point of the merger was to solve the money issues of the membership loss. Why hasn't that worked? Why do they need more money? Some of us actually understand business and would love to have some sort of explanation/proof of why they need more money and what exactly they are going to do with it. If you find that an unreasonable stance to take, feel free to just give them some of your money. I'm sure they'll take a donation as long as you don't ask them what they are going to do with it.
I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you need to grow up. It is possible to have valid concerns with USBC without wanting another key chain. Why is it that anybody that has the nerve to question the great USBC is automatically a whiner?
Joe,
I have plenty to say on the topic of USBC's function as NGB, and I've articulated those thoughts countless times on these boards over the years. As such, believe me when I say that yesterday's comments did not come as a result of having nothing better to say. I think that I've just grown weary of saying the same things over and over again and having it fall on deaf ears.
In regard to your next point, I wasn't really seeking to call out anyone/everyone who questions USBC; lord knows the organization has made its mistakes over the years. Additionally, I think that people have the obligation to closely monitor people and entities in charge and to hold them accountable for inappropriate conduct. But, sadly, a large number of the most vocal dissenters on this site seem to do nothing but whine, call names, and make unfounded accusations. Again, that is not true of everyone who questions the organization, but it seems to be true of quite a few people around here.
Should USBC members be told to what ends the extra $5 would go? Sure, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think I ever said that was unreasonable. I will tell you though that my guess is that you're going to hear that it is going to go toward operating costs. One thing a lot of people just can't seem to get through their heads around here is that we're no longer in the glory days of bowling.
USBC isn't banking millions of dollars and operating with a healthy surplus of funds each year. With membership dwindling year after year, they're being forced to cut staff, cut programs, and raise costs just to stay in operation. How is that any different than a landlord or leasing company raising rent every year or a cable/satellite provider upping your monthly payment every so often? When those things happen, do you get extra amenities or channels? I've never heard of it going that way. So why do so many people expect USBC to provide everything it used to provide and more when there is less money than ever coming in and all of its expenses have gone up?
Nevertheless, again, if members want to know specifically what the proposed dues increase would contribute to, I think USBC should make that known; however, I won't blame USBC for being less than enthusiastic about releasing that info (if that's even how the organization feels about it) since it is likely to give the whiners another chance to say, "look, they're charging us more money, and we're not getting anything new for it."
The simple fact is this, ladies and gentlemen: We're never going back to the good old days where your $18/year (what I paid this year for national/local combined) entitles you to a new ring and a bunch of coasters/patches every year. To be honest, ABC/USBC's mistake was giving all of that crap out in the first place. The NGB never should've been about awards and all of that. It should've been about upholding the playing rules, managing the playing environment and equipment, and growing the sport. That's what our money should be used for, and, from my perspective, USBC is still working to achieve all of those goals. I'm not saying the organization has done or is doing all the right things in regard to those goals, but I think that they're making an honest effort. As such, I still think that I am getting my money's worth through my membership. Clearly, there are people who feel the opposite, and they are entitled to that. I just hope that those people take a good look and think through what things will be like if USBC goes away and we're left with no governing body. If you think bowling has problems now, wait until it's an actual free for all.
I hope that provides a more mature perspective as to my take on this issue. I will agree with you though; my previous response was childish. But I have to admit, any time I see a golden opportunity to call someone a douche canoe, I tend to take it. It's just too good a term to pass up! Be well, sir!
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Hey 12, you can speak for yourself because I have watched EVERY PBA telecast this year. Guess how many times my kids (ages 16, 13, and 11) sat down with me to watch? NONE. Guess how many of them sat down with me to watch high school kids, kids their age, bowl because they could relate to the kids? How about all 3 were glued to the TV with me and NONE picked up their SmartPhone.
Kids have their own bowling balls and sometimes go with me to practice, sometimes not. However, ask if they want to go to the High School match or High School tournament in the area, and they are all on board.
Someone said that the way to grow the sport is to get younger folks interested. Well guess what...the ONLY time mine are interested is when there is someone they can relate to. They do not want to see PB3 or Weber or WRWJr on the over 50 tour. Although I love watching them as it takes me back to who I grew up and watched, they could care less. I bet they could walk right past Duke or any of the bowlers I named above and would know and would not care.
Thinking like you where you believe one way is right and will never work is one reason businesses go out of business. You have to be willing to try new business models that attract different ages and demographics. Immediately shutting off someone for X reason without proper research will only lead to a quicker downfall.
So for you to say High School Bowlers is not what you want to see might be true, but is FALSE for an entire population.
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You and I think alike Gene. Good post.
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Here we see on display what is referred to as "black and white thinking" vs those who see the gray area. :)
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Great post Gene and you too WOWZERS.
It may seem like I am on the side of USBC. I do back them up more than most because I can understand the difficulty in what most what them to accomplish. I have worked and participated in the industry for over 40 years and have even had the opportunity to participate in bowling in other countries as well. What we have in the USBC is looked at as a blueprint for what other countries base their organizations on.
Bad thing is what works in other countries isn't guaranteed to work here. It is very difficult to convince people to "go bowling" when other activities are more readily available. I don't want to lose the USBC, only make it better.
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An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it?
Because the few values they provide are worth $15 and can't be easily replaced.
100% agree! Very well stated.
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I would question any organization that has been as ineffective as the USBC for the last two decades...but apparently this is an emotional discussion so carry on gentlemen.
Not to pick on you specifically morpheus, but this statement keeps me asking the same questions.
1. What do you feel USBC should be providing they don't already?
2. What do you feel USBC should do differently?
3. Can you give an example of a way to increase membership (since that is what so many people feel is the main responsibility of USBC) that USBC has not considered?
I just find it appalling that so many are so adamant about horrible USBC is or has been for the past 20+ years (even though it is only 11 years old). This entire topic has been only a bitch session for some with nothing of substance coming from those same people as far as a solution is concerned. All I hear is, "USBC sucks, they can't do anything right. I don't know what to do either, but gosh darnit, USBC sucks."
I think I've replied to this at least three different occasions...but here goes again.
1. I'm not asking for any additional services, act like the governing body of the sport and a membership organization rather than an organization focused on running/promoting tournaments.
2. The vast majority of investment should be in youth. Heck even subsidize programs at the youth/high school level if you have too but stop investing time and effort running tournaments and especially a professional sports organization because it's a distraction from the longer-term goal and quite honestly completely outside of what the governing body should be focused on. Look at the USGA where they run a couple of professional tournaments a year and most are geared towards youth but they are not in the business of running the PGA or even tournaments for their members because they are the governing body of the sport.
3. See #2...it's all about rebuilding from the ground up making our sport relevant, fun, and challenging for future generations of the sport.
And you didn't ask, but there has to be much more transparency because if the USBC were a child, they would have lost their decision making privileges long ago given the massive decline in membership over the last two decades. I've said this many times, there has to be more accountability and transparency if you want membership to come along on this journey, but right now it feels like a bunch of people saying trust me without any accountability which is a significant reason for the current state of bowling.
At the end of the day, I struggle to understand how anyone can look at the performance of the USBC and believe anything will change by simply giving them more money.
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Morph...all good points.
Only thing I can say or state in response to your final question:
I do not think that I would be open to tearing down the USBC in favor of a new organization that may come to the same fate as the USBC is currently. Go through who knows how long of a transition phase, possibly lose some benefits during the transition, and end up with maybe nothing better than we currently have?
Now, tearing down the USBC but keeping the USBC in place to rebuild it, promoting growing segments of our sport, run tourneys better, run all operations with more transparency, and all the while keeping most of the benefits we have currently I would be for.
I just do not want to start over from scratch. I think the resistance will be massive. I could be wrong. If I/someone had some money set aside to help find the issues facing the USBC, what I would have liked to see is for all bowlers that did not sanction a year after the/she did, why did the bowler not sanction? Is the person still bowling? If not, what made the bowler either quit or not sanction? Conduct a real study based upon the USBC database to find all members that sanctioned the previous bowling season but not the current season. Call them. Yes, pick up the phone and call to find out a real reason. An email or postcard asking someone to participate can easily be discarded. Talking to a real person could give the bowler time to air some laundry.
Let's get some real #s in and see exactly what ails bowling. We all know we are losing a massive amount of bowlers, but has there been an actual study conducted to pinpoint the top 2 or 3 reasons why? Or are we assuming at this point and nobody truly knows?
If someone would conduct this type of study, I wonder how many people quit because of the USBC versus money/family/time issues? I think it would be very interesting to see.
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Have any of you who are complaining about USBC, bothered to look on bowl.com and check the financials? How about the annual report?
As a Public Non-Profit USBC isn't a private entity and is required to disclose all their financials and other documents about the organization.
I know, it's just rude of them not to tell us each one of us individually, but that's just not feasible.
http://www.bowl.com/About/About_Home/2014_USBC_Annual_Report/
http://www.bowl.com/About/About_Home/Financials/
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/14StrategicPlanBrief.pdf
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Thanks morph for the itemized reply. I do agree with much you have said to an extent.
1. As far as services for the members, you say you don't want any additional services, yet you want USBC to not focus on tournaments (a service for USBC members). I agree USBC puts a lot of effort on local and national tournaments for the members. And they have unfortunately relied on these tournaments for funding. But at the same time, I feel they have had to rely on them for the sake of staying solvent in a time where there haven't been any dues increase along with a declining member base. Personally I would like to see a better digital presence from USBC in the form of a better website, an app for basic functions (search for member as an example) and better promotions from other sponsors. Right now I can get as good as or better deals than what they have agreed upon.
2. I like the idea of devoting more funds to youth endeavors. If the adults don't want standardized shots, then perhaps we should be trying to develop a youth base competing on more difficult shots (not necessarily sport). I realize this isn't a shared opinion, but it is mine. The "sport" of bowling I feel need to require a more stringent standardization when it comes to lane conditions. Right now it would be unrealistic to have all of USBC do this, but at the youth level it can start being implemented. And the USGA is about tournaments for its members. There are currently 18 different tournaments advertised on the USGA website. And this does not include regional or local sponsored tournaments.
3. Agree completely.
And I know many have viewed the financials from USBC. I for one am not an accountant so some of it goes over my head. One thing I did notice is at the inception of the USBC, there were around 170 people working at USBC. That number is now down to under 100. With a reduction of over 40% in personnel, the reduction in salaries was over 51%. So as of 2014, the average salary at USBC has gone down. I wouldn't necessarily say the salaries are out of control with the average salary at around 66,000/year.
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Another thing I'd like to point out is the success that USBC Collegiate and other entities under the youth umbrella have been enjoying. Look at the numbers for Junior Gold; they are through the roof. USBC Collegiate has been adding more and more programs year to year as well, and the NAIA is actually close to making bowling a national championship sport too. So whether you realize it from where you're at or not, USBC has done a great deal to help get bowling into schools, both in terms of P.E. classes and in the form of competitive teams, and those efforts are working quite well.
A byproduct of that success is that there is a good chance that you're going to see a lot of those young men and women start leagues that use challenging conditions because, at least at the collegiate level, most of the higher-end tournaments are conducted on Sport-compliant patterns.
Lastly, as spmcgivern mentioned, anyone who thinks that USBC is socking away cash for a rainy day is WAY off base. Salary freezes have been utilized, people and programs have been cut, and the people remaining there have been asked to take on more responsibility for the same pay instead of hiring replacements.
I always come back to the same thing. I don't think that USBC has always made the best decisions - eliminating my position was one of the bad ones! lol - but I do think that they're doing the best they can with what they have, and I do think that the people running the show have the best interest of bowling and bowlers in mind. It's just not an easy situation to fix.
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That goes both ways Gene. Not everybody that is less than thrilled fits your description, but people always resort to calling names when they have no other points to make.
The whole point of the merger was to solve the money issues of the membership loss. Why hasn't that worked? Why do they need more money? Some of us actually understand business and would love to have some sort of explanation/proof of why they need more money and what exactly they are going to do with it. If you find that an unreasonable stance to take, feel free to just give them some of your money. I'm sure they'll take a donation as long as you don't ask them what they are going to do with it.
I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you need to grow up. It is possible to have valid concerns with USBC without wanting another key chain. Why is it that anybody that has the nerve to question the great USBC is automatically a whiner?
Joe,
I have plenty to say on the topic of USBC's function as NGB, and I've articulated those thoughts countless times on these boards over the years. As such, believe me when I say that yesterday's comments did not come as a result of having nothing better to say. I think that I've just grown weary of saying the same things over and over again and having it fall on deaf ears.
In regard to your next point, I wasn't really seeking to call out anyone/everyone who questions USBC; lord knows the organization has made its mistakes over the years. Additionally, I think that people have the obligation to closely monitor people and entities in charge and to hold them accountable for inappropriate conduct. But, sadly, a large number of the most vocal dissenters on this site seem to do nothing but whine, call names, and make unfounded accusations. Again, that is not true of everyone who questions the organization, but it seems to be true of quite a few people around here.
Should USBC members be told to what ends the extra $5 would go? Sure, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think I ever said that was unreasonable. I will tell you though that my guess is that you're going to hear that it is going to go toward operating costs. One thing a lot of people just can't seem to get through their heads around here is that we're no longer in the glory days of bowling.
USBC isn't banking millions of dollars and operating with a healthy surplus of funds each year. With membership dwindling year after year, they're being forced to cut staff, cut programs, and raise costs just to stay in operation. How is that any different than a landlord or leasing company raising rent every year or a cable/satellite provider upping your monthly payment every so often? When those things happen, do you get extra amenities or channels? I've never heard of it going that way. So why do so many people expect USBC to provide everything it used to provide and more when there is less money than ever coming in and all of its expenses have gone up?
Nevertheless, again, if members want to know specifically what the proposed dues increase would contribute to, I think USBC should make that known; however, I won't blame USBC for being less than enthusiastic about releasing that info (if that's even how the organization feels about it) since it is likely to give the whiners another chance to say, "look, they're charging us more money, and we're not getting anything new for it."
The simple fact is this, ladies and gentlemen: We're never going back to the good old days where your $18/year (what I paid this year for national/local combined) entitles you to a new ring and a bunch of coasters/patches every year. To be honest, ABC/USBC's mistake was giving all of that crap out in the first place. The NGB never should've been about awards and all of that. It should've been about upholding the playing rules, managing the playing environment and equipment, and growing the sport. That's what our money should be used for, and, from my perspective, USBC is still working to achieve all of those goals. I'm not saying the organization has done or is doing all the right things in regard to those goals, but I think that they're making an honest effort. As such, I still think that I am getting my money's worth through my membership. Clearly, there are people who feel the opposite, and they are entitled to that. I just hope that those people take a good look and think through what things will be like if USBC goes away and we're left with no governing body. If you think bowling has problems now, wait until it's an actual free for all.
I hope that provides a more mature perspective as to my take on this issue. I will agree with you though; my previous response was childish. But I have to admit, any time I see a golden opportunity to call someone a douche canoe, I tend to take it. It's just too good a term to pass up! Be well, sir!
Great response Gene! I've been off the boards for about a year and just came to read about the tourney in Reno and saw this thread. Your response didn't seem like a normal Gene response, but it makes much more sense now...especially the last part.
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Thanks morph for the itemized reply. I do agree with much you have said to an extent.
1. As far as services for the members, you say you don't want any additional services, yet you want USBC to not focus on tournaments (a service for USBC members). I agree USBC puts a lot of effort on local and national tournaments for the members. And they have unfortunately relied on these tournaments for funding. But at the same time, I feel they have had to rely on them for the sake of staying solvent in a time where there haven't been any dues increase along with a declining member base. Personally I would like to see a better digital presence from USBC in the form of a better website, an app for basic functions (search for member as an example) and better promotions from other sponsors. Right now I can get as good as or better deals than what they have agreed upon.
2. I like the idea of devoting more funds to youth endeavors. If the adults don't want standardized shots, then perhaps we should be trying to develop a youth base competing on more difficult shots (not necessarily sport). I realize this isn't a shared opinion, but it is mine. The "sport" of bowling I feel need to require a more stringent standardization when it comes to lane conditions. Right now it would be unrealistic to have all of USBC do this, but at the youth level it can start being implemented. And the USGA is about tournaments for its members. There are currently 18 different tournaments advertised on the USGA website. And this does not include regional or local sponsored tournaments.
3. Agree completely.
And I know many have viewed the financials from USBC. I for one am not an accountant so some of it goes over my head. One thing I did notice is at the inception of the USBC, there were around 170 people working at USBC. That number is now down to under 100. With a reduction of over 40% in personnel, the reduction in salaries was over 51%. So as of 2014, the average salary at USBC has gone down. I wouldn't necessarily say the salaries are out of control with the average salary at around 66,000/year.
Gene, here you go. One App for Bowl.com. Look up member averages, rules etc.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bowl.com/id938753460?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bowl.com/id938753460?mt=8)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.usbc.bowl&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.usbc.bowl&hl=en)
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Wanting the USBC to do the things the USGA does is just unrealistic. The cash cow US Open supports everything the USGA does.
And all the major golf organizations, with major corporate backing, were behind starting The First Tee to get kinds involved in golf. The USBC spending a million here or there isn't enough to make a real difference in youth bowling. Go to the first tee website, look at the list of corporate sponsors and the list of trustees. If you want the USBC to really make a push to get juniors involved it's going to take a lot more than a $5 increase in dues.
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That's fine, Milo. I think that would be a very beneficial app to have, and I'd be all for it if it could be developed and implemented in a cost-effective manner. Now, I've never created an app, so I don't know the ins and outs of that.
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I don't really want to get into specifics about people at USBC/BPAA, but do we really have the most qualified team to turn the ship around when vast majority of educated/experienced leaders have been fired or laid off leaving only a handful of people fearing for their jobs that have become "yes men". I for one think you have to tear it down in order to build it back up starting with creating a system and culture of transparency/accountability. If I thought the system could work, I'd personally pay $50 a year in dues to improve our sport but for now it's a vote of no confidence.
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I don't really want to get into specifics about people at USBC/BPAA, but do we really have the most qualified team to turn the ship around when vast majority of educated/experienced leaders have been fired or laid off leaving only a handful of people fearing for their jobs that have become "yes men". I for one think you have to tear it down in order to build it back up starting with creating a system and culture of transparency/accountability. If I thought the system could work, I'd personally pay $50 a year in dues to improve our sport but for now it's a vote of no confidence.
So when did these "educated/experienced leaders" exist at USBC again? You have said that they have screwed everything up for the past two decades(Which the USBC hasn't been in existence that long) and now you claim they have been fired.
Which one is it?
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My 2 complaints about USBC have been the same over the years.
One is that they were supposed to solve the money issue by merging and that seems to have only lasted a few years before they started cutting people and services. If the merger was a financial solution, it should have lasted at least for some period of time, so why didn't it? I don't really want to give more money to an organization that mismanaged it before. It has nothing to do with $5 for me. I'll pay $50 sanction fee if you can give me an organization that can provide awesome services to bowlers of all levels. I don't want to give another penny to one that has a worrisome history and no indication that they've identified why they failed or implemented ways to make sure it doesn't continue.
The second is that they seem to have completely lost touch with the "average" bowler. Most bowlers don't come to this site or any other sites like this. They don't say what they care about here or on Facebook because all they care about is coming out and having a good time with friends. If they can win along the way, that's great but not a requirement. It's a social game for them. So while we have a small percentage capable of competing for things like Team USA, the PBA, etc, most bowlers don't care about that at all. Bowling in the Olympics is not on their radar at all. When USBC wants to know things, they ask elite bowlers. They ask focus groups of elite bowling people they put together. They ask anyone and everyone other than the actual league bowlers that make up the vast majority of their membership (who only join USBC because they are told they have to in order to bowl in the league). Some (not all by any means) of those regular bowlers ask "what do I get for my $20?" every year. It's getting to be a harder question to answer. They don't need a tournament average. The rules for all intents and purposes at their level have been the same for decades. Many leagues are very low prize pools, so bonding (which they can do without USBC) isn't a huge issue for them. USBC eliminated the awards saying they are a governing body and not in the awards business, and in the same breath they tout discounts you can get through them as a reason to be a member. Hypocritical much or were you just saying that to get rid of the awards and save a few $$$ (while claiming money had nothing to do with it)?
I don't trust them. I believe they lied about the motivations for getting rid of the awards, and I believe they were irresponsible with the money they got as a result of the merger until they couldn't look the other way any more. I cannot justify giving any more money to an organization that I don't trust to do the right thing with that money. I agree that things are more expensive and to provide the level of service I expect, they need more money. I've seen nothing in terms of what they are going to do with extra money. Other than layoffs and cutting personnel I've seen nothing that they are doing to resolve the current money issues. Everything is a reaction and nothing is proactive. They haven't been able to stop the membership decline (certainly much of that part isn't their fault). They need someone more forward thinking to run the ship. I've seen some ideas from people like Riggs that are interesting and at least worth exploring. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity. If they are going to fail anyway (which is the direction we're headed), let's take a chance and blow it up big time. Who knows, maybe something positive can come from trying something completely off the wall. At this point, there's nothing to lose. Failure is the only option on the current course.
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I would argue that bowling is more in touch with their average member than most other organizations. As far as asking elite bowlers for their opinions, elite bowlers are usually the ones most involved.
Do you think the USGA is in touch with their average member? The average golfer isn't even good enough to participate in a USGA sponsored event.
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I agree with at least some of that, Joe. Yes, there has been mismanagement over the years; however, I look at it as more of a case of them having invested in programs/ideas that just haven't paid off the way they hoped they would as opposed to people just being out and out irresponsible.
I think that kind of goes to your statements about the focus groups and Joe Bowler. USBC has always sought to elevate the game above the reputation of something to entertain a bunch of sloppy, beer-guzzling men and women. Now, is that what/who a large segment of league bowlers are? Maybe, but I can understand why the NGB doesn't want to endorse that image. Heck, if nothing else, that image doesn't really attract big sponsors. I also think that a lot of the membership decline was going to happen anyway and that there really isn't much USBC (or anyone) could've done to stop it. There is just so much competition for people's entertainment dollars these days. You also have to look at the league format. Fewer people in the younger age groups want to commit to a 33 week season. Now, proprietors are welcome to offer split-season or short-season leagues, but they don't like doing that because they've always loved the guaranteed revenue that comes with the old format.
Long story short, yes, USBC has tried a lot of things that just haven't paid off, and those things have contributed to the organization's financial problems. I'm not going to say that they've contributed to the declining membership numbers because I think that was going to happen anyway.
Lastly, I'm not against your idea of enacting radical changes. I even preached that to a degree while I was still an employee. I had the same idea you did, which is that it's better to take a membership hit in the short term by making sweeping changes that may bring more and more people back down the road. I can tell you from experience that that idea was usually shot down because they fear, financially speaking, they can't afford to take that short-term hit without being forced to close up shot all together. Basically, they're in the hurt locker, and it's not looking a whole lot brighter any time soon.
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Yes, the sport is suffering under USBC watch. No, they haven't proven they know how to turn it around. Who's at fault and where the mistakes occurred have been discussed over and over, but they completely miss the point.
Is there anyone here that doesn't think it is worth $15 a year for the USBC to store historical records, maintain the rules of the game, provide resources to settle rule disputes, and guarantee league prize funds? How are we even debating about that no brainer of a deal for us?
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I would argue that bowling is more in touch with their average member than most other organizations. As far as asking elite bowlers for their opinions, elite bowlers are usually the ones most involved.
Do you think the USGA is in touch with their average member? The average golfer isn't even good enough to participate in a USGA sponsored event.
I'm not a USGA member, so I don't really care. If we're being honest, most bowlers aren't good enough to participate in the USBC Tournament either.
I never said my expectations are perfect or even 100% realistic. It's just how I view things from where I sit and the people I talk to. I'm not advocating quitting USBC; on the contrary I think I want to see a more aggressive USBC. I'd also like to see a more transparent one. Probably not realistic, but I'd like to see it. USBC in theory sounded great 12 years ago. Right now it hasn't gone as well as expected/hoped.
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I never said my expectations are perfect or even 100% realistic. It's just how I view things from where I sit and the people I talk to. I'm not advocating quitting USBC; on the contrary I think I want to see a more aggressive USBC. I'd also like to see a more transparent one. Probably not realistic, but I'd like to see it. USBC in theory sounded great 12 years ago. Right now it hasn't gone as well as expected/hoped.
The USBC lost most of their ability to affect changes in conditions and equipment many years ago. The industry is controlled by the bowling proprietors, and will be into the future.
I think the USBC has done well focusing on the things they can impact -- tournaments, youth programs, training, record keeping, etc. It's more than worth the money we currently pay, and probably more. That's apparently not enough for many bowlers, but reality is reality.
I don't need to get into their shorts as far as financials if they want to raise annual dues by $5. It's not worth the bother.
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I don't really want to get into specifics about people at USBC/BPAA, but do we really have the most qualified team to turn the ship around when vast majority of educated/experienced leaders have been fired or laid off leaving only a handful of people fearing for their jobs that have become "yes men". I for one think you have to tear it down in order to build it back up starting with creating a system and culture of transparency/accountability. If I thought the system could work, I'd personally pay $50 a year in dues to improve our sport but for now it's a vote of no confidence.
So when did these "educated/experienced leaders" exist at USBC again? You have said that they have screwed everything up for the past two decades(Which the USBC hasn't been in existence that long) and now you claim they have been fired.
Which one is it?
Here's the logic...good people don't stay on a sinking ship so you're left with people that have limited options and are rarely the cream of the crop. Anyone that has a difference of opinion with leadership doesn't last long so you have a lot of "yes men".
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Gene, here you go. One App for Bowl.com. Look up member averages, rules etc.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bowl.com/id938753460?mt=8 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bowl.com/id938753460?mt=8)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.usbc.bowl&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.usbc.bowl&hl=en)
Thanks for this. This is a great resource. I would like to have the rulebook searchable or at least able to advance to a particular section. But it is still a good app and a good starting point.
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Has the Usbc grown the sport? No. Did the Usbc lose a million or so members? Yes. Has the Usbc cut back on programs? Yes. Does this sound like a rate increase is justified? No. They are a sinking ship, throwing more cash at a poorly run company will not make it better. They need new management, new ideas etc... Running the same system will get the same results with or without an increase.
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Hope they figure something out. Between them and the owners of the PBA bowling has some obstacles to overcome.
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I still say getting member involved in change is a start. Almost everyone has or has access to computer. They can't operate and fix things from Texas. Do a 50 week road show. Get a panel of USBC staff and have them visit 50 states in 52 weeks. Some states bowling associations are run better than others. Hold meeting in each state capital and allow any USBC member to attend. Find out what's broke and needs attention before asking for more money. At least they could put together an analysis report and present it showing what issues they are giving attention too and how much funding they are requesting for the fixes. Know this is far fetched, but it's an idea.
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Has the Usbc grown the sport? No. Did the Usbc lose a million or so members? Yes. Has the Usbc cut back on programs? Yes. Does this sound like a rate increase is justified? No. They are a sinking ship, throwing more cash at a poorly run company will not make it better. They need new management, new ideas etc... Running the same system will get the same results with or without an increase.
Has USBC grown the sport - If you look at the number of high school and collegiate bowling programs out there, yes, USBC has helped grow the sport.
Did USBC lose a million or so members - Technically, I guess you could say that, but you have to realize that the number of certified bowlers was going down long before ABC, WIBC, and YABA merged to form USBC. Now, as many others have discussed, those losses were inevitable (at least to some degree) due to the changing landscape of sports and entertainment. Sure, if USBC were a flawless NGB, I'm sure a few bowlers here and there would have hung on, but if you blame USBC for the majority of those losses, I think you are WAY off base.
Do they need a dues increase? - If the organization is going to continue to exist, they probably do.
12XSECH, In the end, it's clear that you don't like USBC or believe in the people running it and what they're trying to do. You're entitled to that opinion, and you're certainly not alone. Okay, so if you want that organization to go away, I certainly hope that you have a very detailed plan that lays out who needs to take control and what specific actions they need to take to bring bowling back to where it belongs. I'll be honest; all I'm hearing is that you KNOW that USBC sucks and is doing it all wrong. Okay, so tell me who/what wouldn't suck and what specific, realistic steps those people/entities can take to make the changes that you imply are so easy to make.
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Why is it that the PBA can't draw the ratings?
Five years back when I was member of a Monday night men's league in my area, there would be probably about 8 guys out of 100 that watched the PBA the previous day. Wouldn't be surprised if it is now 5 out of 100. I am sure this kind of ratio is probably the same across many centers today in the U.S. Maybe in areas where bowling is more popular there is more.
Now go back 40 - 50 years ago; I am sure there were more watching PBA.
What happened?
Any old timers out there that would like to chime in,
What made it exciting back then for you?
What kept you coming back for more week after week to watch it?
Is the PBA really that different today than back then?
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Why is it that the PBA can't draw the ratings?
Five years back when I was member of a Monday night men's league in my area, there would be probably about 8 guys out of 100 that watched the PBA the previous day. Wouldn't be surprised if it is now 5 out of 100. I am sure this kind of ratio is probably the same across many centers today in the U.S. Maybe in areas where bowling is more popular there is more.
Now go back 40 - 50 years ago; I am sure there were more watching PBA.
What happened?
Any old timers out there that would like to chime in,
What made it exciting back then for you?
What kept you coming back for more week after week to watch it?
Is the PBA really that different today than back then?
Not an old timer, but I can give one possible reason. Options. When I was a kid, we had three TV channels. You watched whatever was available.
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What was on TV Saturday afternoons 20+ years ago? Not much? Saturday morning cartoons ran till noon and then some pretty bland programming on the few channels available. Once College Football and College Basketball exploded, there was less time for other items on Saturday afternoon, thus the move of bowling to a different night. Add in the digital revolution and more options, cheaper options, and people dropped bowling.
Obviously 12 has an agenda, and 12 is right that many bowlers have been lost while the USBC has been in charge, but a study needs conducted to find out WHY the bowlers no longer sanction. We cannot assume the reason is the USBC or another reason. I would venture centers closing, causing a longer commute, longer work hours, different work shifts, more demand for time at home, and bowling was squeezed out. Add in a blah economy and increasing prices to be competitive to bowl and you have a storm of reasons for people to not bowl.
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You cant use the argument that there are many other things for people to do with their time now. If that is the case, why has golf and tennis rose up to where they are now? The baseball league I play in has more teams then ever before, the adult baseball league is huge all over the country. Go to a golf course and try to get a tee time...around here they are all booked. So people are still out doing things with their time...its just not bowling anymore. The parent child leagues use to be big around here, now its down to nothing.
I cant fix the usbc problems but like I said before, this management team that they have has failed and are continuing to fail. Change needs to start at the top, not with the 10 dollar an hour guy that answers the phone.
I also dont know any kids that watched the high schoolers on espn. Just like baseball or football the kids want to see "Tom Brady", Mike Trout etc... and in bowling they want to see Weber, Belmonte....They dont want to see Johnny Jr from Oakmont HS. Stars bring out fans, not 16 year old amateurs.
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You cant use the argument that there are many other things for people to do with their time now. If that is the case, why has golf and tennis rose up to where they are now? The baseball league I play in has more teams then ever before, the adult baseball league is huge all over the country. Go to a golf course and try to get a tee time...around here they are all booked. So people are still out doing things with their time...its just not bowling anymore. The parent child leagues use to be big around here, now its down to nothing.
I cant fix the usbc problems but like I said before, this management team that they have has failed and are continuing to fail. Change needs to start at the top, not with the 10 dollar an hour guy that answers the phone.
I also dont know any kids that watched the high schoolers on espn. Just like baseball or football the kids want to see "Tom Brady", Mike Trout etc... and in bowling they want to see Weber, Belmonte....They dont want to see Johnny Jr from Oakmont HS. Stars bring out fans, not 16 year old amateurs.
Sorry, but Golf has been on a decline the past several years, so that argument is invalid. Tennis, maybe, but not golf.
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12...you must not of read the other thread where I did explain how other sports took off. I know people who want to be able to go outside and can reenact what he/she sees on the TV for cheap or no additional money than what has already been spent. Someone has a single golf club, he/she can hit one ball around the back of the yard. Basketball? Shoot hoops. Hit a baseball or throw a baseball...all cost NOTHING to do once you have the equipment AND you can play them at home without going anywhere. Bowling???? Not so much. You have to spend and spend and if you want to practice or just toss a ball for the heck of it, you have to get in your car and drive to the local alley and pay. Nothing like the other sports. SO I can absolutely see why someone stopped bowling or following bowling and switched to golf or baseball or basketball or whatever.
And yes, golf is on the way down as well. In my area, 3 courses within 15 miles have closed within the past 2 years.
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wowzer, Anyone can throw a baseball or shoot hoops...But to play in a league you still have to buy equipment, drive to the field etc...and most of these kids teams are travel teams now and play 60 games or more in the spring / summer. You can hit a golf ball in the yard...but to play you have to go to a course and pay to play...and it cost a lot more then bowling. BTW Golf in my area has not slowed down at all. It might be down on tv because Tiger is out but on the course its packed.
Bowling is so down you cant even find it on the espn website. They have Criquet (sp) but not bowling... Why is that? Unless they changed something the last time i looked. Bowling is not listed in the sports section of any newspaper that I know of either. Plus who wants to watch a tournament that was played 6 weeks ago? Do we watch taped baseball games or football etc 6 weeks later? No... Can the usbc at least try to get bowling more in the spot light? Try to get it listed on espn.com or in a sports section of a newspaper? The usbc should spent more of its money on promotions instead of moves across the country. There are plenty of improvements that can be made but they pretty much have done nothing but the bare minimum.
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Golf in most areas peaked about 10 years ago.
You could always play those other games in your yard and had to drive to a bowling center to bowl, so that sure isn't the reason participation is down. A lot of people will say it's because of more options of entertainment. This is partially true, but essentially bowling has been priced out of it's blue collar background.
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You guys just hit the nail on the head. Both of you explained that you might be able to play in your yard but to be in a league you would have to travel. Well...many of the folks I know that quit bowling are staying at home because he/she needs the money to raise a family or the cost just got too high. So he/she goes outback with his/her kids and can play together rather than drive somewhere and pay. So yes, to play in a league you would need to travel and pay, but that is not what the ones I know are doing. Maybe in your areas, but not here. Everything is dieing here. As I said before, golf courses are closing, bowling alleys are closing, the only ice skating/hockey rink closed. Why? Because NOBODY is going somewhere to pay to play. But still, the kids and parents can watch something on TV, like basketball or baseball, and go out back and play themselves right now. With the down economy and less financial freedom, there is an attraction for that.
Bottom line, I said before and will say again, a true study needs conducted to see why people are quitting bowling. Actual conversations, a real thought out research study and not something thrown together in a week or two. Is it the price of a game at the local center? The drive time to the local center? Family? Economy? Other sports? More electronic options (cable, SmartPhone, etc)? We can sit here all down until we are blue in the face and argue what we think is right, but a real study is the only way this gets resolved.
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This topic is one of the craziest things I have read in awhile. I can't believe the time and energy some people have spent complaining about a $5 increase of dues to a whopping grand total of $15 for a year. You can argue all you want that it is not about the money but let's be honest. That's exactly what is is about. Because I can guarantee you wouldn't have written all these posts if the dues didn't increase. So of course you are upset about the money. At least be honest about that.
As for what they are doing with it? I have no idea and honestly I don't care. I choose to join a league and bowl. I don't want to be involved with those decisions. If you do then great. Get involved in your local or state organizations and try to make some changes. Instead of basically complaining like a bunch of school girls in the locker room. Do you seriously think for your $15 you should be sitting in the executive meetings deciding the best route the USBC should take. Should they consult every member and try to please each and every one of us. That would work out great. They would then only have 40,000 different ideas to try to implement. Did you ever think the money may be going to pay for operating expenses? The cost of printer ink has gone up, pens, pencils, paper, staples. A million things have increased in price. So even if the $5 doesn't go to anything new to increase membership or programs who cares. Other expenses in the world have increased and good for them to hold out this long in increasing the dues.
It's now going to be $15 dollars a year for dues. And I for one think it is still one of the best deals going
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Agreed Air. 100% agree.
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I'd really like to know how many of the big-time dissenters on this site are involved in their local associations since that is a readily-available means of getting involved and trying to bring about change as opposed to simply sitting around telling everyone who is involved that things suck and that they're doing it all wrong.
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I'd really like to know how many of the big-time dissenters on this site are involved in their local associations since that is a readily-available means of getting involved and trying to bring about change as opposed to simply sitting around telling everyone who is involved that things suck and that they're doing it all wrong.
Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.
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I served on my local association for 10 years. We have 2 centers one down town and one on the Air Force base. At the time of me being on the board we had 3 centers For 10 years a a board member I tried getting the City Tournament to rotate between the 3 centers and wasn't happening. The last year of me being on the board, one of the board members was owner of the 3rd center and when I brought it up at our tournament meeting he stated that he would rather see his center close than bowl at the base. After hearing that I simply stated "this is my official resignation" and walked out the door. I have not been on the board the last 10 years, but being retired Air Force have fought every year at the annual meeting (since the 3rd center closed and he is no longer on the board)to get the tournament at the AF base and was always told participation would drop. The base belongs to the local association and bowlers that bowl on base only deserve to have the tournament held at there location occasionally. 2014-15 City was held at base and guess what, participation had no change as the few that refused to bowl were replaced by new participants that bowl on AF base only. Our local board is terrible and I have been arguing with them for 20 years on issues to improve participation. Not once have I seen a board member in either center trying to recruit team for tournament. There excuse is that is the houses responsibility. We had 34 teams this year, 29 handicap and 5 scratch. They take the prize money and put 75% in handicap and 25% in scratch. They get on me because I put in a handicap team and being one of the top bowlers in my area I should put in a scratch team. I tell them you pay out 1 spot, you don't finish 1st, you get notta, zero, nil.
Some of you are correct stating it starts at local level, but when 25% of your membership comes from a AF center and they are continually shut out, membership will continue to fall. My pro shop is located in the down town center, but I bowl on the base. I hold 2-3 tournaments and clinics each year and I cover both when I hold the events. My wife and I hold a State Mixed Doubles Masters down town (My wife manages the AF center) and the other 2 I run are rotated between the 2 centers. My clinics are held where lane availability is.
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My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.
You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.
Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.
I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.
I know you want to stand on principle but sometimes that principle loses merit when borne out by logic (not emotion).
I think you're shorting the intellect of many reputable members if you think they're just giving them money b/c they're retarded/could care less (figuratively obv). Sometimes life isn't reduced to such simplicity.
Personally, I wish much of my sanction fee was invested in youth bowling and growing the sport from that direction, but if it's not specifically that, it is not, in my view, a total waste.
I also do participate in the Ohio State USBC tourney and the Open Championships......so to me, I feel like I don't lose a ton of value, especially at such a low cost.
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My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.
You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.
Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.
I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.
What makes it a good value...based on what quantitative facts and past performance? If I take your position to it's natural conclusion, there will be more increases so at what point is it no longer a good value and what criteria is used to evaluate that point. You guys are just kicking the can a further down the road without addressing the core problems.
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My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.
You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.
Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.
I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.
What makes it a good value...based on what quantitative facts and past performance? If I take your position to it's natural conclusion, there will be more increases so at what point is it no longer a good value and what criteria is used to evaluate that point. You guys are just kicking the can a further down the road without addressing the core problems.
I can only speak for myself, but as a tournament bowler it's worth the money to have those, and also I feel like I get value by contributing to the advancement of youth bowling. Though I cannot argue WHERE all of my contribution goes, I would find myself to be ridiculous to complain about such a low cost when I bought an IQ30 for $220 and an Eternal Cell recently for $195.
I'm not saying it's a perfect organization and that the wisest of choices have always been made.
ITZPS made a great statement which echo's my sentiment.
At $10, it's the cheapest annual fee for membership in any organization. You can't even get a fishing license for $10. You might as well be saying, "well, I want steak and lobster for $10." Then when they can't do it and say we need more money for that, "What? Can't even provide me a meal for $10 bucks and now you want more?" Yes. They want more to be able to provide adequate services, which they aren't being allowed. Sanction fees have not raised in a decade. You know how much more expensive stuff is now? How are they supposed to provide services with no money? How many people here have gone a solid decade without a raise at their job or switching jobs to get a higher wage? $10 was never enough to begin with. I bet it takes half that just to get all your information processed and your sanction card sent back to you. The majority of you spend more than that at the bar in just one week.
At $10, that's 19 CENTS a week, or just under 3 CENTS a day. You seriously expect to get something done for that?
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Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.
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No, I've said a couple of times that I have zero problem with people wanting to know what the money is earmarked for. Transparency is a good thing. I simply think that people will be disappointed because they want to hear that it's for this or that new and exciting program or benefit when instead it will simply be used for normal operating expenses.
On local associations, yes, I know they are much different. My point is simply that they provide an opportunity to get involved with USBC and help the sport at some level. Since so many around here seem to want to bash the people up top who ARE working to help the sport, I certainly hope they are doing their part and getting involved where they can. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe that you have a whole lot of credibility to complain if you aren't working on the problem yourself.
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Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.
No, I've said a couple of times that I have zero problem with people wanting to know what the money is earmarked for. Transparency is a good thing. I simply think that people will be disappointed because they want to hear that it's for this or that new and exciting program or benefit when instead it will simply be used for normal operating expenses.
On local associations, yes, I know they are much different. My point is simply that they provide an opportunity to get involved with USBC and help the sport at some level. Since so many around here seem to want to bash the people up top who ARE working to help the sport, I certainly hope they are doing their part and getting involved where they can. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe that you have a whole lot of credibility to complain if you aren't working on the problem yourself.
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I'm fine if it is indeed needed for operational things, but since no one will ever tell us that we have no way of knowing and that to me is a core problem with the current system. How do we hold leadership accountable in this system if you never know what's going on or what the success criteria is for a given program...if you can't measure it you can't fix it.
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I think the analogy I would use here is that everyone voting for an increase is an enabler for an organization needs rehab but doesn't acknowledge there's a problem. You guys are just enabling the problem rather than letting them hit rock bottom which is where real change starts to happen. Good luck fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion but it's clear to me your position is grounded in emotional arguments like "it's worth it" and "it's only $5 rather than logic which is exactly what the USBC is counting on. I love our sport and it's unfortunate there's not enough bravery in the industry to move away from a system that's produced marginal results at best and it's obviously not going to change by enabling the problem to continue.
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USBC currently provides its members some benefits. Whether you agree with those benefits or not, it will cost a set amount for 2016 (operating cost). This is a constant regardless if it supports 1 member or 10 million.
With the reduction in membership we have seen, the operating cost, along with continuous inflation, will have to fall on those who continue to be members. Do we wait for USBC to run in the red before we agree to an increase? Do you want USBC to come back and say we need an increase in dues for basic operating costs? Will that be sufficient? I get the impression it wouldn't be. I am not sure the membership wants to know where every penny goes.
And if your only basis of increased support is on past performance, then you will never agree to it since that insinuates you will find something you don't agree with. Everyone can.
I am like most members who had hoped all the programs and ideas would increase membership. I hoped we would be on the same level as other sports. But we aren't and I don't put all the blame on USBC. In fact, I can't think of one thing USBC has done that has directly led to reduced membership. Perhaps some blame to a small number of new members, but not the loss of members.
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I think the analogy I would use here is that everyone voting for an increase is an enabler for an organization needs rehab but doesn't acknowledge there's a problem. You guys are just enabling the problem rather than letting them hit rock bottom which is where real change starts to happen. Good luck fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion but it's clear to me your position is grounded in emotional arguments like "it's worth it" and "it's only $5 rather than logic which is exactly what the USBC is counting on. I love our sport and it's unfortunate there's not enough bravery in the industry to move away from a system that's produced marginal results at best and it's obviously not going to change by enabling the problem to continue.
Enjoyed the discussion. I think everyone here has had emotion play into their position so some extent. I do feel you are assuming too much when it comes to those who support an increase. We aren't worshiping at the USBC alter. No matter who is in charge there will be members who disagree. And that is fine. You can't appease everyone. The only thing the leadership can do is lead honestly and with the best interest of the sport. They shouldn't do what I want or what you want. If it doesn't work, then at least someone tried.
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Leading honestly has been a weakness in my opinion. That's part of the problem.
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This topic is one of the craziest things I have read in awhile. I can't believe the time and energy some people have spent complaining about a $5 increase of dues to a whopping grand total of $15 for a year. You can argue all you want that it is not about the money but let's be honest. That's exactly what is is about. Because I can guarantee you wouldn't have written all these posts if the dues didn't increase. So of course you are upset about the money. At least be honest about that.
As for what they are doing with it? I have no idea and honestly I don't care. I choose to join a league and bowl. I don't want to be involved with those decisions. If you do then great. Get involved in your local or state organizations and try to make some changes. Instead of basically complaining like a bunch of school girls in the locker room. Do you seriously think for your $15 you should be sitting in the executive meetings deciding the best route the USBC should take. Should they consult every member and try to please each and every one of us. That would work out great. They would then only have 40,000 different ideas to try to implement. Did you ever think the money may be going to pay for operating expenses? The cost of printer ink has gone up, pens, pencils, paper, staples. A million things have increased in price. So even if the $5 doesn't go to anything new to increase membership or programs who cares. Other expenses in the world have increased and good for them to hold out this long in increasing the dues.
It's now going to be $15 dollars a year for dues. And I for one think it is still one of the best deals going
+ a lot---my thoughts word for word. Youth bowling seems to be alive and well in this neck of the woods. High school bowling has become a big sport here in Bergen County (NJ). One of my teammates has a son who bowls for his high school and is participating in a tournament this weekend. I am very much looking forward to watching the tournament and speaking with USBC county officials about getting more involved in our sport.
As for the increase, Airrip's post (and several others) lays out the arguments very well. I do not know everything that the USBC does or should do, but I am glad that the organization is here. In 2015, I spent quite a bit of $$$ on bowling equipment including the purchase of a ball spinner and accessories. I am not worrying about a miniscule increase in dues.
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I was voted in our association president last year. I understand the people who say $5 is $5 , and I too believe in the usbc being accountable. When I took over we had multiple problems, and it has taken a year to sort us out and get our association moving in the right direction. Our regions usbc rep has been invaluable. The help, advise, and support the usbc can give an association is great. Most people just don't know what resources they have that you can use. I'm not on either side, I think the usbc wastes money, sure, but I also think that they have good programs that need our money. Cost of doing business lets say.
Again, this is just me but the usbc saved our association's butt, and I am grateful to them for their help. $5 I still want to know where it goes, and local voice would be nice in the usbc, don't know how that would work though
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Did automatic scoring help contribute to the decline of bowling? Very pricey which may have led to higher game prices, bowlers not as involved (many don't even know how to manually keep score anymore), and the monitors will usually show other sports that are currently playing (not bowling or even bowling instructional videos).
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Why is it ok to give them an increase? Because they did such a great job with the money they had in the past? NOT! Why reward them for poor performance? Do you really think the extra money cash will make them spend it wiser? They spent what they had foolishly in the past why would it now be different?
If the government raised your taxes would you be happy with that? When gas goes up 10 cents is that ok to? Just give it your money because someone asks for it....Thats the attitude I see here. And I bet 90% of those are Clinton supporters.
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Why is it ok to give them an increase? Because they did such a great job with the money they had in the past? NOT! Why reward them for poor performance? Do you really think the extra money cash will make them spend it wiser? They spent what they had foolishly in the past why would it now be different?
If the government raised your taxes would you be happy with that? When gas goes up 10 cents is that ok to? Just give it your money because someone asks for it....Thats the attitude I see here. And I bet 90% of those are Clinton supporters.
Yet again, describe SPECIFIC examples of "poor performance" and how they have "spent foolishly." You clearly think they suck all the way around, so what SPECIFIC issues do you have. All you've done so far is make blanket statements over and over again.
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I was voted in our association president last year. I understand the people who say $5 is $5 , and I too believe in the usbc being accountable. When I took over we had multiple problems, and it has taken a year to sort us out and get our association moving in the right direction. Our regions usbc rep has been invaluable. The help, advise, and support the usbc can give an association is great. Most people just don't know what resources they have that you can use. I'm not on either side, I think the usbc wastes money, sure, but I also think that they have good programs that need our money. Cost of doing business lets say.
Again, this is just me but the usbc saved our association's butt, and I am grateful to them for their help. $5 I still want to know where it goes, and local voice would be nice in the usbc, don't know how that would work though
Your local voice is the delegates you send to the USBC Convention. As President of your local USBC, you should already know this.
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Why is it ok to give them an increase? Because they did such a great job with the money they had in the past? NOT! Why reward them for poor performance? Do you really think the extra money cash will make them spend it wiser? They spent what they had foolishly in the past why would it now be different?
If the government raised your taxes would you be happy with that? When gas goes up 10 cents is that ok to? Just give it your money because someone asks for it....Thats the attitude I see here. And I bet 90% of those are Clinton supporters.
So what answers do you get from the service station when you demand to know where they are going to spend that extra $.10 a gallon?
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While I do understand that delegates are how we voice our opinions, if you've been to these then you would know that while they listen somewhat, local voices do not carry the agenda. not, probably should they as nothing would ever get done.But thanks for trying to point out what I was trying to say in just a general sense
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While I do understand that delegates are how we voice our opinions, if you've been to these then you would know that while they listen somewhat, local voices do not carry the agenda. not, probably should they as nothing would ever get done.But thanks for trying to point out what I was trying to say in just a general sense
The delegates vote on the proposed amendments. That's your local association voice.
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Gene,
How many members did USBC have ten years ago compared to the roughly one million we have today?
Based on those losses, does USBC bear responsibility for some percentage of that loss and if so, how much?
Where you see value, I can find no quantitative evidence to support your claim. On the other hand, there is a mountain of data showing massive failure in terms of attracting/retaining members so I can only assume you think the USBC bears no responsibility.
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You can't hold the USBC responsible for the great majority of bowling centers being very poorly run businesses.
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Watching and reading this exchange has been like a tennis match just as reading through some comments on Facebook in regards to the proposed increase. You have 2 camps that I see:
A. The group that doesn't understand why the $5 is a big issue.
B. The group that blames USBC for the decline in membership and/or integrity of the sport and would rather see the USBC go under and either hope something else will replace it that will be better or just flat don't care if there s any governing body.
The only I haven't seen is any come with anything that would improve the the current state of things.
Mark
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Gene,
How many members did USBC have ten years ago compared to the roughly one million we have today?
Based on those losses, does USBC bear responsibility for some percentage of that loss and if so, how much?
Where you see value, I can find no quantitative evidence to support your claim. On the other hand, there is a mountain of data showing massive failure in terms of attracting/retaining members so I can only assume you think the USBC bears no responsibility.
When bowling memberships were at their highest, what did ABC/WIBC do to get them there? The only reduced "value" a member has now compared to the heyday is the loss of awards. So if you are trying to say the loss of awards has led to the loss of memberships, then that is your opinion.
But let's be honest, USBC provides a ton more service to its members than it ever has. If you don't see this then you haven't tried.
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
I have to ask, why do you bowl leagues?
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
I have to ask, why do you bowl leagues?
I love to compete and the challenge of the sport.
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
I have to ask, why do you bowl leagues?
I love to compete and the challenge of the sport.
Okay, fair enough.
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once again, its not my job to solve the problems of the usbc. i listed several suggestions and they can use any of them...for free. You clinton / sanders supporters think the sky will fall if the usbc went away... Your fix is to give them more money...our fix is to get new management or fold up...we dont need them to continue to bowl, just like we dont need the government living in our houses.
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once again, its not my job to solve the problems of the usbc. i listed several suggestions and they can use any of them...for free. You clinton / sanders supporters think the sky will fall if the usbc went away... Your fix is to give them more money...our fix is to get new management or fold up...we dont need them to continue to bowl, just like we dont need the government living in our houses.
"don't need them to continue to bowl" - maybe by your definition of bowling, not by mine. I've had league fees stolen. Yes the president signed the check and the secretary goes to the bank 2 days before payout and withdraws the money, and then hops on a plane to Mexico. There are scums bags out there who steal. Our league still got paid.
Chad Murphy released a statement today about the price increase. Several have asked where the money will go. Here is his answer below. Now you may not like what USBC plans on doing with the money but now you at least know.
Where would the additional money go?
The funding will go directly towards ensuring tomorrow for USBC. This includes support for all our associations that are protected by USBC’s singular non-profit designation. Many people don’t realize that the majority of USBC’s membership dollars fund resources used to benefit state and local associations. In fact, almost all the membership revenue goes directly or indirectly to that support. Here is a simple list of examples:
Continue investment in the field for USBC Association Services and membership support. Expanded training and education could be funded in the future.
Continued investment in dedicated, knowledgeable staff members a phone call or email away to help with rules, association services, tournament support and more
Improving key technology such as WinLABS, BOWL.com, the mobile app and more
Keep the USBC Convention as a free event to benefit our delegates and members
Continue USBC investment in IBC Youth, where we have seen growth and all-time highs in Junior Gold, high school, and collegiate program
Competitive bowling events including the Masters, Queens, U.S. Opens, PWBA Tour, and Open and Women’s Championships that provide amazing experiences for our members, help retain bowlers and showcase our sport
Televise our outstanding events to keep bowling top of mind and relevant for the next generation of consumers
Evolve, as the science related to equipment certifications and specifications currently is changing and requires support with modern tools and a trained staff
Have the strongest Team USA program so we can compete with the best on the world stage
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
So I am delusional for not putting all the blame on USBC.
* It is USBC's fault my son would rather play bowling on his tablet instead of going to the center.
* It is USBC's fault pro bowling doesn't have big name sponsors which results in prize funds worth less than they were 40 years ago.
* It is USBC's fault cable companies provide 500 channels to watch instead of going bowling.
* It is USBC's fault proprietors don't approach open-play bowlers to see if they want to join a league.
But you aren't delusional for thinking all those things are their fault.
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I think I finally got it, but just to make sure. The USBC bears no responsibility for declines in membership and without their phenomenal programs we would have even lower membership numbers?
That's the most delusional thing I've heard on this entire thread...
So I am delusional for not putting all the blame on USBC.
* It is USBC's fault my son would rather play bowling on his tablet instead of going to the center.
* It is USBC's fault pro bowling doesn't have big name sponsors which results in prize funds worth less than they were 40 years ago.
* It is USBC's fault cable companies provide 500 channels to watch instead of going bowling.
* It is USBC's fault proprietors don't approach open-play bowlers to see if they want to join a league.
But you aren't delusional for thinking all those things are their fault.
Awesome post...you might want to propose a higher fee increase since membership will continue to decline by no fault of USBC's incredible programs aimed at acquiring/retaining members.
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Well, I tried to get some constructive discussion going, but people would apparently rather bitch and moan about why the other side is an idiot. Carry on.
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First off someone was talking about the air force base. That is a problem to have the require championship there because every member of the local association must be able to take part. An since it is a military base some members might not be able to get on the base.
2nd there is only 750 delegates on the average at the convention. Representing probably less than 30% of your state & local association. Those 750 are voting for 1.3 millions members. There is several association that are never heard from at the convention (financial reason)and National seems do not care what they Affliated, Smaller association or for that matter the medium size association have to say. I know personally they do all these survey at time and I have never seen one in the 10 years. Then state well we survey association and came up with this plan or change. But when you are communicating with other association they never seen the survey. Again you have 750 people voting on what the national membership should be or should the state/local association be force to merge.
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Well, I tried to get some constructive discussion going, but people would apparently rather bitch and moan about why the other side is an idiot. Carry on.
Come on Joe, you post this as if you never met us before! :o ;D
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As someone from the Chicagoland area, this post reminds me of sports talk discussions of Bears QB Jay Cutler. One segment of callers hates him with a passion and refuses to give him any credit for anything. He can complete 50 out 55 passes for 600 yards and 7 touchdowns, but the second he throws an INT, they come out of the woodwork talking about how much he sucks and how the Bears need to get rid of him because they'll never win with "a guy like that."
Shortly thereafter, the phone lines light up with the folks who like him, the ones who acknowledge that he's far from perfect, but that he's the best thing the Bears have had at that position and that, until something better comes along, it's worth sticking with him.
The longer this thread has persisted, the more like the aforementioned conversation it has gotten. Some people are filled with anger, hatred, and frustration directed toward USBC. Those people simply refuse to acknowledge anything positive that the organization has done since its inception, and they blame every problem in the world of bowling squarely at the organization's feet. Others acknowledge that USBC has its shortcomings and faults, but assert that it has done/is doing some good things.
In the end, it seems pretty clear that one side is never going to convince the other side, so, as others have said, we've probably reached the point of diminishing returns in regard to this thread.
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Well, I tried to get some constructive discussion going, but people would apparently rather bitch and moan about why the other side is an idiot. Carry on.
Come on Joe, you post this as if you never met us before! :o ;D
Ha - I know. Different section, same result.
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See ya in a couple of years on the next thread when they ask for another increase...it will only be $5 and the decline still won't be their fault lol
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See ya in a couple of years on the next thread when they ask for another increase...it will only be $5 and the decline still won't be their fault lol
Well, those of us who feel that way will then look forward to hearing from you and the rest of the genius contingent so that we'll know how stupid we are for allowing USBC to shamelessly victimize us once again.
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I support the USBC and have voted Republican as long as I have been eligible to vote (Voted for Bush 2 twice, McCain, and Romney) and plan on voting for Trump if he makes it that far. Not too crazy about the other Repubs though.
Yep, I have no problems handing over an extra $5 a year to the USBC...that's a whopping 15 cents per league session if I only bowl ONE 32 week league per year. Considering I bowl 4...that equates to 4 cents per league night, or just a tisker more than 1 penny per league game.
Yep, this Republican has NO problems handing over the extra money and would hand over $10-$15 and not just the $5.
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All you guys willing to give USBC an extra $5 feel free to do so. I am certain they will take your donation.
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Keep throwing money at them...they'll get better...lol
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I'm just curious as to why you bowl in USBC Sanctioned Leagues/Tournaments if you hate them so much and think that they are doing a horrible job? I mean why pay for something that you are so passionately against? I sure as hell would not pay anyone that I disagreed so much with.
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I'm just curious as to why you bowl in USBC Sanctioned Leagues/Tournaments if you hate them so much and think that they are doing a horrible job? I mean why pay for something that you are so passionately against? I sure as hell would not pay anyone that I disagreed so much with.
They do it because as long as USBC is around, they'll have a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the sport, and they'll maintain the ability to feel smarter than/superior to all of the people they deem to be idiots for supporting the organization.
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I'm just curious as to why you bowl in USBC Sanctioned Leagues/Tournaments if you hate them so much and think that they are doing a horrible job? I mean why pay for something that you are so passionately against? I sure as hell would not pay anyone that I disagreed so much with.
They do it because as long as USBC is around, they'll have a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the sport, and they'll maintain the ability to feel smarter than/superior to all of the people they deem to be idiots for supporting the organization.
I love the sport and feel supporting mediocrity rather that striving for excellence is unacceptable. I can only hope our delegates are more inquisitive than you and demand transparency/accountability from those leading our great sport rather doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
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I posted what the money will be used for straight from Chad Murphy - the head of USBC in an earlier post. You now have that information.
That is a dead horse now.
Move on to knit-picking over what's wrong with the USBC's plan for the the money.
I am sure that is next.
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jman...I ask the same thing and on top of that, in a different thread, 12 admits he uses the USBC online average stuff (or will use it when he runs a tourney) because it is available. Nothing like talking out of both sides of your mouth. Use the resource but yet complain about them.
The complainers about the extra money still want to say without a doubt the management is the problem. Forget everything else, 100% management issue. Not weather, digital revolution, sputtering economy, increase in price of equipment and $ to replace said equipment, increased cost of centers for rising energy costs passed on to bowlers in the form of lineage or open play prices, shift away from traditional work hours, and the list goes on and on, and yet none of those items anyone with any budget could stop of change. But yet it is still management fault.
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I posted what the money will be used for straight from Chad Murphy - the head of USBC in an earlier post. You now have that information.
That is a dead horse now.
Move on to knit-picking over what's wrong with the USBC's plan for the the money.
I am sure that is next.
Mr. Murphy was kind enough to give us a "simple list of examples" in his announcement...how do I hold the USBC accountable based on that statement? Do any of you work in the real world where you have to justify budgets and show benefit for programs when you ask for money?
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OK everyone, here's the lesson of the day (write this down as you heard it here FIRST :P :P :P):
The best way to show your displeasure, "hold them accountable" as well as "stand on principle", is to do it with your wallet.
It is most certainly what I would do if I were on a crusade (or at least as pissed as some have demonstrated) against a business and its practices.
I stand with the majority in this thread. Now I'm done.
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OK everyone, here's the lesson of the day (write this down as you heard it here FIRST :P :P :P):
The best way to show your displeasure, "hold them accountable" as well as "stand on principle", is to do it with your wallet.
It is most certainly what I would do if I were on a crusade (or at least as pissed as some have demonstrated) against a business and its practices.
I stand with the majority in this thread. Now I'm done.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
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Nice quote. Now, why don't you deliver that to Springfield, Illinois and tell the Governor and state legislature to knock off the fighting because each or being UNREASONABLE. No problem, we pass bills to pay lottery winners but tell the college kids needing grant money to pay for schooling that they have to wait. So either schools have to take it on the chin and work with the students until Illinois works this out or the kids have to come up with $$ or the students stop going to school.
But hey, win $25,000 on a scratch off and our state (Illinois) will pay you today.
Not unreasonable at all
In other words, being unreasonable may work sometime, but in other cases, there is a clear indication that being unreasonable does more harm.