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Author Topic: Topic locked...what a joke  (Read 28109 times)

12XSECH

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Topic locked...what a joke
« on: January 16, 2016, 01:09:23 PM »
What happened? Someone got their feelings hurt? Can't discuss the lousy Usbc here? I wouldn't care if they folded. Another sanctioning group will take over. People act like we need them, they need us and that's how it works. A member suggested to them to raise the fee....ok..what if another member suggested to lower the fee? Give me a break. This is and was the worst organization that ever tan bowling. Again, its not the 5 bucks, or 1 dollar..its we got nothing in the past and now they want more for doing less.
It's a joke and the joke us on the bowlers. When is the last time the Usbc inspected a lane at anyone of your locations? Case closed.

 

12XSECH

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2016, 06:29:29 AM »
An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it? 

HankScorpio

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2016, 07:02:12 AM »
An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it? 

Because the few values they provide are worth $15 and can't be easily replaced.

spmcgivern

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2016, 07:40:50 AM »
I would question any organization that has been as ineffective as the USBC for the last two decades...but apparently this is an emotional discussion so carry on gentlemen.
Not to pick on you specifically morpheus, but this statement keeps me asking the same questions.

1.  What do you feel USBC should be providing they don't already?
2.  What do you feel USBC should do differently?
3.  Can you give an example of a way to increase membership (since that is what so many people feel is the main responsibility of USBC) that USBC has not considered?

I just find it appalling that so many are so adamant about horrible USBC is or has been for the past 20+ years (even though it is only 11 years old).  This entire topic has been only a bitch session for some with nothing of substance coming from those same people as far as a solution is concerned.  All I hear is, "USBC sucks, they can't do anything right.  I don't know what to do either, but gosh darnit, USBC sucks."

WOWZERS

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2016, 07:56:59 AM »
Hank....spot on. Although I may not agree with everything, I sure am not running down to Texas, give up my day job, move my family, and try to tell the USBC folks how to run the business. For all we know, there are serious roadblocks within the industry none of us are aware of unless you have been in an USBC execs shoes.

SPM...you are spot on as well. I think we can take ANY company in the world and pick apart what they do and determine that there is something that they do not do well, even Apple, Microsoft, etc. As for USBC...try as you, they, or anyone might, my kids and many other kids are simply more interested in a SmartPhone, gaming, other sports, etc rather than bowling. So many options today that regardless of the amount of advertising or even the best ideas in the world from the smartest people for a cheap price could stop the loss of kids and adults to other aspects of our society today.

I want the PBA to be back on ABC every Saturday at 3 Eastern. Problem is that was almost 20 years ago. Since then the digital age exploded, how many more channels do we have now to pick from compared to 25+ years ago when bowling enjoyed good TV ratings, so even a great product with an unbelievable pay structure may not draw in a great audience.

I think the biggest problem is not the digital age, but getting people to leave home and go somewhere. I can walk out my backdoor and shoot hoops, hit/throw a baseball, hit some golf shots, etc. However, to bowl, I have to drive somewhere and leave home. What am I going to turn on when I watch TV? Something I can walk out my door and try myself or something I have to pack the family up for, spend $$$, and then drive home after 45 minutes or so (not league)? I am going to be more interested in the sport I can try in my backyard for nothing more than I already have invested and try to emulate what I see on TV.

There is no model from anyone, regardless of how much we pay that will solve that. There is no going back from the Digital age. We can try to integrate digital tech at the bowling alley, but that still requires the person (family) to drive to the bowling alley rather than stay at home.

Look at fantasy Football and other Fantasy sports. Someone with a little or no knowledge can sign up and try to win lots of cash. For someone to do that bowling, you have to plunk down a significant investment first to get your equipment, spend more getting better, spend more bowling in a league/tournament, and hope that at the end of the year you get a few bucks back.

However, back to my first point agreeing with Hank, the services USBC provide today is well worth my $$$ each year, plus $5 or $10 more per year.

12XSECH

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #80 on: January 27, 2016, 08:00:46 AM »
The Usbc is in financial trouble.  Their books need to be looked at by an outside accounting firm. They will find out where money us being wasted or lost. To increase membership, the Usbc has to do a better job with promoting the sport. They need to be more involved with ESPN on the telecasts. Last weeks high school bowlers was a joke. That's NOT what people want to see. Also how about getting a better time slot? One not up against the NFL?  If the Usbc wants to control the sport, they have to be more involved in promoting it. Those are my suggestions.

Gene J Kanak

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2016, 08:02:44 AM »
That goes both ways Gene.  Not everybody that is less than thrilled fits your description, but people always resort to calling names when they have no other points to make.

The whole point of the merger was to solve the money issues of the membership loss.  Why hasn't that worked?  Why do they need more money?  Some of us actually understand business and would love to have some sort of explanation/proof of why they need more money and what exactly they are going to do with it.  If you find that an unreasonable stance to take, feel free to just give them some of your money.  I'm sure they'll take a donation as long as you don't ask them what they are going to do with it.

I usually agree with you, but in this case, I think you need to grow up.  It is possible to have valid concerns with USBC without wanting another key chain.  Why is it that anybody that has the nerve to question the great USBC is automatically a whiner?

Joe,

I have plenty to say on the topic of USBC's function as NGB, and I've articulated those thoughts countless times on these boards over the years. As such, believe me when I say that yesterday's comments did not come as a result of having nothing better to say. I think that I've just grown weary of saying the same things over and over again and having it fall on deaf ears.

In regard to your next point, I wasn't really seeking to call out anyone/everyone who questions USBC; lord knows the organization has made its mistakes over the years. Additionally, I think that people have the obligation to closely monitor people and entities in charge and to hold them accountable for inappropriate conduct. But, sadly, a large number of the most vocal dissenters on this site seem to do nothing but whine, call names, and make unfounded accusations. Again, that is not true of everyone who questions the organization, but it seems to be true of quite a few people around here.

Should USBC members be told to what ends the extra $5 would go? Sure, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think I ever said that was unreasonable. I will tell you though that my guess is that you're going to hear that it is going to go toward operating costs. One thing a lot of people just can't seem to get through their heads around here is that we're no longer in the glory days of bowling.

USBC isn't banking millions of dollars and operating with a healthy surplus of funds each year. With membership dwindling year after year, they're being forced to cut staff, cut programs, and raise costs just to stay in operation. How is that any different than a landlord or leasing company raising rent every year or a cable/satellite provider upping your monthly payment every so often? When those things happen, do you get extra amenities or channels? I've never heard of it going that way. So why do so many people expect USBC to provide everything it used to provide and more when there is less money than ever coming in and all of its expenses have gone up?

Nevertheless, again, if members want to know specifically what the proposed dues increase would contribute to, I think USBC should make that known; however, I won't blame USBC for being less than enthusiastic about releasing that info (if that's even how the organization feels about it) since it is likely to give the whiners another chance to say, "look, they're charging us more money, and we're not getting anything new for it."

The simple fact is this, ladies and gentlemen: We're never going back to the good old days where your $18/year (what I paid this year for national/local combined) entitles you to a new ring and a bunch of coasters/patches every year. To be honest, ABC/USBC's mistake was giving all of that crap out in the first place. The NGB never should've been about awards and all of that. It should've been about upholding the playing rules, managing the playing environment and equipment, and growing the sport. That's what our money should be used for, and, from my perspective, USBC is still working to achieve all of those goals. I'm not saying the organization has done or is doing all the right things in regard to those goals, but I think that they're making an honest effort. As such, I still think that I am getting my money's worth through my membership. Clearly, there are people who feel the opposite, and they are entitled to that. I just hope that those people take a good look and think through what things will be like if USBC goes away and we're left with no governing body. If you think bowling has problems now, wait until it's an actual free for all.

I hope that provides a more mature perspective as to my take on this issue. I will agree with you though; my previous response was childish. But I have to admit, any time I see a golden opportunity to call someone a douche canoe, I tend to take it. It's just too good a term to pass up! Be well, sir!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 08:05:08 AM by Gene J Kanak »

WOWZERS

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2016, 08:18:09 AM »
Hey 12, you can speak for yourself because I have watched EVERY PBA telecast this year. Guess how many times my kids (ages 16, 13, and 11) sat down with me to watch? NONE. Guess how many of them sat down with me to watch high school kids, kids their age, bowl because they could relate to the kids? How about all 3 were glued to the TV with me and NONE picked up their SmartPhone.

Kids have their own bowling balls and sometimes go with me to practice, sometimes not. However, ask if they want to go to the High School match or High School tournament in the area, and they are all on board.

Someone said that the way to grow the sport is to get younger folks interested. Well guess what...the ONLY time mine are interested is when there is someone they can relate to. They do not want to see PB3 or Weber or WRWJr on the over 50 tour. Although I love watching them as it takes me back to who I grew up and watched, they could care less. I bet they could walk right past Duke or any of the bowlers I named above and would know and would not care.

Thinking like you where you believe one way is right and will never work is one reason businesses go out of business. You have to be willing to try new business models that attract different ages and demographics. Immediately shutting off someone for X reason without proper research will only lead to a quicker downfall.

So for you to say High School Bowlers is not what you want to see might be true, but is FALSE for an entire population.

WOWZERS

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2016, 08:18:57 AM »
You and I think alike Gene. Good post.

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2016, 09:20:38 AM »
Here we see on display what is referred to as "black and white thinking" vs those who see the gray area.   :)
GTx2

spmcgivern

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2016, 09:21:12 AM »
Great post Gene and you too WOWZERS.

It may seem like I am on the side of USBC.  I do back them up more than most because I can understand the difficulty in what most what them to accomplish.  I have worked and participated in the industry for over 40 years and have even had the opportunity to participate in bowling in other countries as well.  What we have in the USBC is looked at as a blueprint for what other countries base their organizations on. 

Bad thing is what works in other countries isn't guaranteed to work here.  It is very difficult to convince people to "go bowling" when other activities are more readily available.  I don't want to lose the USBC, only make it better.

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2016, 09:28:01 AM »
An ineffective company that asks its customers for money is a failing company. I don't see what people don't understand about this. Like our government is in debt and they keep on spending and wanting more and more and offering less and less. The "its only 5 bucks" argument is stupid. Yes it's only 5 bucks, but why give that to an organization that has no clue in what to do with it? 

Because the few values they provide are worth $15 and can't be easily replaced.

100% agree!  Very well stated.
GTx2

morpheus

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2016, 09:53:24 AM »
I would question any organization that has been as ineffective as the USBC for the last two decades...but apparently this is an emotional discussion so carry on gentlemen.
Not to pick on you specifically morpheus, but this statement keeps me asking the same questions.

1.  What do you feel USBC should be providing they don't already?
2.  What do you feel USBC should do differently?
3.  Can you give an example of a way to increase membership (since that is what so many people feel is the main responsibility of USBC) that USBC has not considered?

I just find it appalling that so many are so adamant about horrible USBC is or has been for the past 20+ years (even though it is only 11 years old).  This entire topic has been only a bitch session for some with nothing of substance coming from those same people as far as a solution is concerned.  All I hear is, "USBC sucks, they can't do anything right.  I don't know what to do either, but gosh darnit, USBC sucks."
I think I've replied to this at least three different occasions...but here goes again.

1. I'm not asking for any additional services, act like the governing body of the sport and a membership organization rather than an organization focused on running/promoting tournaments.

2. The vast majority of investment should be in youth. Heck even subsidize programs at the youth/high school level if you have too but stop investing time and effort running tournaments and especially a professional sports organization because it's a distraction from the longer-term goal and quite honestly completely outside of what the governing body should be focused on. Look at the USGA where they run a couple of professional tournaments a year and most are geared towards youth but they are not in the business of running the PGA or even tournaments for their members because they are the governing body of the sport.

3. See #2...it's all about rebuilding from the ground up making our sport relevant, fun, and challenging for future generations of the sport.

And you didn't ask, but there has to be much more transparency because if the USBC were a child, they would have lost their decision making privileges long ago given the massive decline in membership over the last two decades. I've said this many times, there has to be more accountability and transparency if you want membership to come along on this journey, but right now it feels like a bunch of people saying trust me without any accountability which is a significant reason for the current state of bowling.

At the end of the day, I struggle to understand how anyone can look at the performance of the USBC and believe anything will change by simply giving them more money.
#AFutureForMembership #WhoDoesUSBCWorkFor

WOWZERS

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2016, 10:10:32 AM »
Morph...all good points.

Only thing I can say or state in response to your final question:

I do not think that I would be open to tearing down the USBC in favor of a new organization that may come to the same fate as the USBC is currently. Go through who knows how long of a transition phase, possibly lose some benefits during the transition, and end up with maybe nothing better than we currently have?

Now, tearing down the USBC but keeping the USBC in place to rebuild it, promoting growing segments of our sport, run tourneys better, run all operations with more transparency, and all the while keeping most of the benefits we have currently I would be for.

I just do not want to start over from scratch. I think the resistance will be massive. I could be wrong. If I/someone had some money set aside to help find the issues facing the USBC, what I would have liked to see is for all bowlers that did not sanction a year after the/she did, why did the bowler not sanction? Is the person still bowling? If not, what made the bowler either quit or not sanction? Conduct a real study based upon the USBC database to find all members that sanctioned the previous bowling season but not the current season. Call them. Yes, pick up the phone and call to find out a real reason. An email or postcard asking someone to participate can easily be discarded. Talking to a real person could give the bowler time to air some laundry.

Let's get some real #s in and see exactly what ails bowling. We all know we are losing a massive amount of bowlers, but has there been an actual study conducted to pinpoint the top 2 or 3 reasons why? Or are we assuming at this point and nobody truly knows?

If someone would conduct this type of study, I wonder how many people quit because of the USBC versus money/family/time issues? I think it would be very interesting to see.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:13:30 AM by WOWZERS »

milorafferty

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #89 on: January 27, 2016, 10:21:48 AM »
Have any of you who are complaining about USBC, bothered to look on bowl.com and check the financials? How about the annual report?

As a Public Non-Profit USBC isn't a private entity and is required to disclose all their financials and other documents about the organization.

I know, it's just rude of them not to tell us each one of us individually, but that's just not feasible.

http://www.bowl.com/About/About_Home/2014_USBC_Annual_Report/
http://www.bowl.com/About/About_Home/Financials/
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/aboutusbc/pdfs/14StrategicPlanBrief.pdf
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spmcgivern

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Re: Topic locked...what a joke
« Reply #90 on: January 27, 2016, 11:03:26 AM »
Thanks morph for the itemized reply.  I do agree with much you have said to an extent. 

1.  As far as services for the members, you say you don't want any additional services, yet you want USBC to not focus on tournaments (a service for USBC members).  I agree USBC puts a lot of effort on local and national tournaments for the members.  And they have unfortunately relied on these tournaments for funding.  But at the same time, I feel they have had to rely on them for the sake of staying solvent in a time where there haven't been any dues increase along with a declining member base.  Personally I would like to see a better digital presence from USBC in the form of a better website, an app for basic functions (search for member as an example) and better promotions from other sponsors.  Right now I can get as good as or better deals than what they have agreed upon.

2.  I like the idea of devoting more funds to youth endeavors. If the adults don't want standardized shots, then perhaps we should be trying to develop a youth base competing on more difficult shots (not necessarily sport).  I realize this isn't a shared opinion, but it is mine.  The "sport" of bowling I feel need to require a more stringent standardization when it comes to lane conditions.  Right now it would be unrealistic to have all of USBC do this, but at the youth level it can start being implemented.  And the USGA is about tournaments for its members.  There are currently 18 different tournaments advertised on the USGA website.  And this does not include regional or local sponsored tournaments.

3.  Agree completely.

And I know many have viewed the financials from USBC.  I for one am not an accountant so some of it goes over my head.  One thing I did notice is at the inception of the USBC, there were around 170 people working at USBC.  That number is now down to under 100.  With a reduction of over 40% in personnel, the reduction in salaries was over 51%.  So as of 2014, the average salary at USBC has gone down.  I wouldn't necessarily say the salaries are out of control with the average salary at around 66,000/year.