Author Topic: Topic locked...what a joke (Read 27163 times)

12XSECH · « **on:** January 16, 2016, 01:09:23 PM »

What happened? Someone got their feelings hurt? Can't discuss the lousy Usbc here? I wouldn't care if they folded. Another sanctioning group will take over. People act like we need them, they need us and that's how it works. A member suggested to them to raise the fee....ok..what if another member suggested to lower the fee? Give me a break. This is and was the worst organization that ever tan bowling. Again, its not the 5 bucks, or 1 dollar..its we got nothing in the past and now they want more for doing less.
It's a joke and the joke us on the bowlers. When is the last time the Usbc inspected a lane at anyone of your locations? Case closed.

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #121 on:** January 28, 2016, 07:15:38 AM »

I'd really like to know how many of the big-time dissenters on this site are involved in their local associations since that is a readily-available means of getting involved and trying to bring about change as opposed to simply sitting around telling everyone who is involved that things suck and that they're doing it all wrong.

morpheus · « **Reply #122 on:** January 28, 2016, 08:57:00 AM »

Quote from: Gene J Kanak on January 28, 2016, 07:15:38 AM

I'd really like to know how many of the big-time dissenters on this site are involved in their local associations since that is a readily-available means of getting involved and trying to bring about change as opposed to simply sitting around telling everyone who is involved that things suck and that they're doing it all wrong.

Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.

Perfect Approach Pro Shop · « **Reply #123 on:** January 28, 2016, 09:16:26 AM »

I served on my local association for 10 years. We have 2 centers one down town and one on the Air Force base. At the time of me being on the board we had 3 centers For 10 years a a board member I tried getting the City Tournament to rotate between the 3 centers and wasn't happening. The last year of me being on the board, one of the board members was owner of the 3rd center and when I brought it up at our tournament meeting he stated that he would rather see his center close than bowl at the base. After hearing that I simply stated "this is my official resignation" and walked out the door. I have not been on the board the last 10 years, but being retired Air Force have fought every year at the annual meeting (since the 3rd center closed and he is no longer on the board)to get the tournament at the AF base and was always told participation would drop. The base belongs to the local association and bowlers that bowl on base only deserve to have the tournament held at there location occasionally. 2014-15 City was held at base and guess what, participation had no change as the few that refused to bowl were replaced by new participants that bowl on AF base only. Our local board is terrible and I have been arguing with them for 20 years on issues to improve participation. Not once have I seen a board member in either center trying to recruit team for tournament. There excuse is that is the houses responsibility. We had 34 teams this year, 29 handicap and 5 scratch. They take the prize money and put 75% in handicap and 25% in scratch. They get on me because I put in a handicap team and being one of the top bowlers in my area I should put in a scratch team. I tell them you pay out 1 spot, you don't finish 1st, you get notta, zero, nil.
Some of you are correct stating it starts at local level, but when 25% of your membership comes from a AF center and they are continually shut out, membership will continue to fall. My pro shop is located in the down town center, but I bowl on the base. I hold 2-3 tournaments and clinics each year and I cover both when I hold the events. My wife and I hold a State Mixed Doubles Masters down town (My wife manages the AF center) and the other 2 I run are rotated between the 2 centers. My clinics are held where lane availability is.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #124 on:** January 28, 2016, 09:22:16 AM »

Quote from: morpheus on January 28, 2016, 08:57:00 AM

My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.

You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.

Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.

I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.

I know you want to stand on principle but sometimes that principle loses merit when borne out by logic (not emotion).

I think you're shorting the intellect of many reputable members if you think they're just giving them money b/c they're retarded/could care less (figuratively obv). Sometimes life isn't reduced to such simplicity.

Personally, I wish much of my sanction fee was invested in youth bowling and growing the sport from that direction, but if it's not specifically that, it is not, in my view, a total waste.

I also do participate in the Ohio State USBC tourney and the Open Championships......so to me, I feel like I don't lose a ton of value, especially at such a low cost.

morpheus · « **Reply #125 on:** January 28, 2016, 09:31:00 AM »

Quote from: Good Times Good Times on January 28, 2016, 09:22:16 AM

Quote from: morpheus on January 28, 2016, 08:57:00 AM
My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.

You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.

Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.

I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.

What makes it a good value...based on what quantitative facts and past performance? If I take your position to it's natural conclusion, there will be more increases so at what point is it no longer a good value and what criteria is used to evaluate that point. You guys are just kicking the can a further down the road without addressing the core problems.

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #126 on:** January 28, 2016, 09:49:59 AM »

Quote from: morpheus on January 28, 2016, 09:31:00 AM

Quote from: Good Times Good Times on January 28, 2016, 09:22:16 AM
Quote from: morpheus on January 28, 2016, 08:57:00 AM
My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5.

You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what.

Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance.

I'm not sure you have heard the point many have made. That the $15 (including the $5 increase) is STILL A GOOD VALUE on what is received and also that we don't want the USBC to cease to exist. That is a greater evil than a $5 increase. Also, Junior Gold is GROWING.
What makes it a good value...based on what quantitative facts and past performance? If I take your position to it's natural conclusion, there will be more increases so at what point is it no longer a good value and what criteria is used to evaluate that point. You guys are just kicking the can a further down the road without addressing the core problems.

I can only speak for myself, but as a tournament bowler it's worth the money to have those, and also I feel like I get value by contributing to the advancement of youth bowling. Though I cannot argue WHERE all of my contribution goes, I would find myself to be ridiculous to complain about such a low cost when I bought an IQ30 for $220 and an Eternal Cell recently for $195.

I'm not saying it's a perfect organization and that the wisest of choices have always been made.

ITZPS made a great statement which echo's my sentiment.

Quote from: ITZPS on January 25, 2016, 02:14:07 PM

At $10, it's the cheapest annual fee for membership in any organization. You can't even get a fishing license for $10. You might as well be saying, "well, I want steak and lobster for $10." Then when they can't do it and say we need more money for that, "What? Can't even provide me a meal for $10 bucks and now you want more?" Yes. They want more to be able to provide adequate services, which they aren't being allowed. Sanction fees have not raised in a decade. You know how much more expensive stuff is now? How are they supposed to provide services with no money? How many people here have gone a solid decade without a raise at their job or switching jobs to get a higher wage? $10 was never enough to begin with. I bet it takes half that just to get all your information processed and your sanction card sent back to you. The majority of you spend more than that at the bar in just one week.

At $10, that's 19 CENTS a week, or just under 3 CENTS a day. You seriously expect to get something done for that?

Gene J Kanak · « **Reply #127 on:** January 28, 2016, 10:16:04 AM »

Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.
[/quote]

No, I've said a couple of times that I have zero problem with people wanting to know what the money is earmarked for. Transparency is a good thing. I simply think that people will be disappointed because they want to hear that it's for this or that new and exciting program or benefit when instead it will simply be used for normal operating expenses.

On local associations, yes, I know they are much different. My point is simply that they provide an opportunity to get involved with USBC and help the sport at some level. Since so many around here seem to want to bash the people up top who ARE working to help the sport, I certainly hope they are doing their part and getting involved where they can. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe that you have a whole lot of credibility to complain if you aren't working on the problem yourself.

morpheus · « **Reply #128 on:** January 28, 2016, 10:40:39 AM »

Quote from: Gene J Kanak on January 28, 2016, 10:16:04 AM

Local associations are a completely different animal with their own set if issues, some are very well run, others not so much. My concern is all the people that just want to throw money at the problem without a plan because it's just $5. Hypothetically speaking, based on past performance, there's a high likelihood membership will continue to decline in which case USBC will need further increases so do we just keep giving them increases because they need it to survive? You guys are saying it's only $5, but based on membership decline they will continue to need additional funds in order to cover revenue from lost membership dues so then what. Not a single person that's in favor of the raise could actually articulate what the money is needed for because the way the system currently designed, there is no accountability for those additional funds and for the life of me I just don't understand why that's ok given past performance. I mean if it were Warren Buffett asking for my money I probably wouldn't even question it based on his past performance and the fact his integrity is beyond reproach, the USBC has not earned that luxury.

No, I've said a couple of times that I have zero problem with people wanting to know what the money is earmarked for. Transparency is a good thing. I simply think that people will be disappointed because they want to hear that it's for this or that new and exciting program or benefit when instead it will simply be used for normal operating expenses.

On local associations, yes, I know they are much different. My point is simply that they provide an opportunity to get involved with USBC and help the sport at some level. Since so many around here seem to want to bash the people up top who ARE working to help the sport, I certainly hope they are doing their part and getting involved where they can. I'm just one of those people who doesn't believe that you have a whole lot of credibility to complain if you aren't working on the problem yourself.
[/quote]
I'm fine if it is indeed needed for operational things, but since no one will ever tell us that we have no way of knowing and that to me is a core problem with the current system. How do we hold leadership accountable in this system if you never know what's going on or what the success criteria is for a given program...if you can't measure it you can't fix it.

morpheus · « **Reply #129 on:** January 28, 2016, 10:58:11 AM »

I think the analogy I would use here is that everyone voting for an increase is an enabler for an organization needs rehab but doesn't acknowledge there's a problem. You guys are just enabling the problem rather than letting them hit rock bottom which is where real change starts to happen. Good luck fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion but it's clear to me your position is grounded in emotional arguments like "it's worth it" and "it's only $5 rather than logic which is exactly what the USBC is counting on. I love our sport and it's unfortunate there's not enough bravery in the industry to move away from a system that's produced marginal results at best and it's obviously not going to change by enabling the problem to continue.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #130 on:** January 28, 2016, 11:04:12 AM »

USBC currently provides its members some benefits. Whether you agree with those benefits or not, it will cost a set amount for 2016 (operating cost). This is a constant regardless if it supports 1 member or 10 million.

With the reduction in membership we have seen, the operating cost, along with continuous inflation, will have to fall on those who continue to be members. Do we wait for USBC to run in the red before we agree to an increase? Do you want USBC to come back and say we need an increase in dues for basic operating costs? Will that be sufficient? I get the impression it wouldn't be. I am not sure the membership wants to know where every penny goes.

And if your only basis of increased support is on past performance, then you will never agree to it since that insinuates you will find something you don't agree with. Everyone can.

I am like most members who had hoped all the programs and ideas would increase membership. I hoped we would be on the same level as other sports. But we aren't and I don't put all the blame on USBC. In fact, I can't think of one thing USBC has done that has directly led to reduced membership. Perhaps some blame to a small number of new members, but not the loss of members.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #131 on:** January 28, 2016, 11:10:23 AM »

Quote from: morpheus on January 28, 2016, 10:58:11 AM

I think the analogy I would use here is that everyone voting for an increase is an enabler for an organization needs rehab but doesn't acknowledge there's a problem. You guys are just enabling the problem rather than letting them hit rock bottom which is where real change starts to happen. Good luck fellas, I've enjoyed the discussion but it's clear to me your position is grounded in emotional arguments like "it's worth it" and "it's only $5 rather than logic which is exactly what the USBC is counting on. I love our sport and it's unfortunate there's not enough bravery in the industry to move away from a system that's produced marginal results at best and it's obviously not going to change by enabling the problem to continue.

Enjoyed the discussion. I think everyone here has had emotion play into their position so some extent. I do feel you are assuming too much when it comes to those who support an increase. We aren't worshiping at the USBC alter. No matter who is in charge there will be members who disagree. And that is fine. You can't appease everyone. The only thing the leadership can do is lead honestly and with the best interest of the sport. They shouldn't do what I want or what you want. If it doesn't work, then at least someone tried.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #132 on:** January 28, 2016, 11:36:50 AM »

Leading honestly has been a weakness in my opinion. That's part of the problem.

St. Croix · « **Reply #133 on:** January 28, 2016, 11:37:52 AM »

Quote from: airrip on January 27, 2016, 07:54:03 PM

This topic is one of the craziest things I have read in awhile. I can't believe the time and energy some people have spent complaining about a $5 increase of dues to a whopping grand total of $15 for a year. You can argue all you want that it is not about the money but let's be honest. That's exactly what is is about. Because I can guarantee you wouldn't have written all these posts if the dues didn't increase. So of course you are upset about the money. At least be honest about that.

As for what they are doing with it? I have no idea and honestly I don't care. I choose to join a league and bowl. I don't want to be involved with those decisions. If you do then great. Get involved in your local or state organizations and try to make some changes. Instead of basically complaining like a bunch of school girls in the locker room. Do you seriously think for your $15 you should be sitting in the executive meetings deciding the best route the USBC should take. Should they consult every member and try to please each and every one of us. That would work out great. They would then only have 40,000 different ideas to try to implement. Did you ever think the money may be going to pay for operating expenses? The cost of printer ink has gone up, pens, pencils, paper, staples. A million things have increased in price. So even if the $5 doesn't go to anything new to increase membership or programs who cares. Other expenses in the world have increased and good for them to hold out this long in increasing the dues.

It's now going to be $15 dollars a year for dues. And I for one think it is still one of the best deals going

+ a lot---my thoughts word for word. Youth bowling seems to be alive and well in this neck of the woods. High school bowling has become a big sport here in Bergen County (NJ). One of my teammates has a son who bowls for his high school and is participating in a tournament this weekend. I am very much looking forward to watching the tournament and speaking with USBC county officials about getting more involved in our sport.

As for the increase, Airrip's post (and several others) lays out the arguments very well. I do not know everything that the USBC does or should do, but I am glad that the organization is here. In 2015, I spent quite a bit of $$$ on bowling equipment including the purchase of a ball spinner and accessories. I am not worrying about a miniscule increase in dues.

coco3085 · « **Reply #134 on:** January 28, 2016, 11:58:00 AM »

I was voted in our association president last year. I understand the people who say $5 is $5 , and I too believe in the usbc being accountable. When I took over we had multiple problems, and it has taken a year to sort us out and get our association moving in the right direction. Our regions usbc rep has been invaluable. The help, advise, and support the usbc can give an association is great. Most people just don't know what resources they have that you can use. I'm not on either side, I think the usbc wastes money, sure, but I also think that they have good programs that need our money. Cost of doing business lets say.

Again, this is just me but the usbc saved our association's butt, and I am grateful to them for their help. $5 I still want to know where it goes, and local voice would be nice in the usbc, don't know how that would work though

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #135 on:** January 28, 2016, 01:15:03 PM »

Did automatic scoring help contribute to the decline of bowling? Very pricey which may have led to higher game prices, bowlers not as involved (many don't even know how to manually keep score anymore), and the monitors will usually show other sports that are currently playing (not bowling or even bowling instructional videos).

Author Topic: Topic locked...what a joke (Read 27163 times)

12XSECH

Topic locked...what a joke

Gene J Kanak

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morpheus

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Perfect Approach Pro Shop

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Good Times Good Times

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morpheus

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Good Times Good Times

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Gene J Kanak

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morpheus

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morpheus

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spmcgivern

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spmcgivern

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Joe Cool

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St. Croix

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coco3085

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MI 2 AZ

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