BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: ITZPS on March 07, 2017, 06:11:43 AM
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Our city tournament here recently concluded, and once again I feel like I got shafted. Tournament ran for 4 weekends, on the 3rd weekend someone bowled team, the only event they intended on bowling, but did well and saw how low the all events lead was, and entered doubles and singles for the 4th weekend to make a run at it. They ended up edging me out by 1 pin 2127-2126.
I'm the absolute king of 2nd place, I can count on one hand the number of times I've won something, but I need a millipede to count all the times I've gotten 2nd in something, and the ways I'm getting 2nd keep getting more creative. I also finished in second for doubles this year. Am I just salty about getting 2nd again and looking for anything I can to complain about or do I have a legitimate gripe here? Thanks.
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As long as tournaments allow last minute entries into events this can happen.
I've had several 2nd place finishes over the years but you have to take it with the idea that you bowled good and simply got beat by one or two people.
I'm the king of 290 scores. I've had more than my share of honor scores but I've also had about 15 290's (the last 11). When they went to the trophy instead of the plaque I quit accepting them.
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Salty, unless the rules didn't allow entries after the tournament started, but in that case they could have just subbed for someone to be able to bowl. So salty with no legit gripe.
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I'd hope for any tournament that has openings with bowlers wanting to fill spots and give them money they would accept. If the rules don't have any kind of deadline for entries then there's nothing to complain about.
We have two local associations. One has a deadline the other does not.
It's putting more money into the prize fund, why not allow it.
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As long as they paid the All Events part of the entry fee before they bowled team, then I don't see an issue.
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As long as they paid the All Events part of the entry fee before they bowled team, then I don't see an issue.
This is my question. I may be wrong, but not sure you can change your mind on all events entry after bowling an event. It would be no whether the games were as you stated or normal on the same weekend with the bowler already entered in the events. You can't decide to get into all events once you have bowled "well" for one event.
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And if we are talking about getting screwed, here is my entry. Last year at state, I had a great tournament. Did well in team on Sat. and on Sun. my dad came to watch. He was a prominent bowler in his time and I hadn't been able to shoot an award score in front of him. Well, for doubles I shoot 821 and I do well for singles. The whole time he was checking the all events scores to see where I would end up.
After all was said and done, I shoot 2295 and take over 1st place for scratch all events on the last shift of the tournament. My dad was ecstatic and so happy to see me do this. But then comes the catch. The year before I had a finger injury and my average wasn't as high as it usually is. The captain of our team didn't notice it either just assuming I was in the scratch division. Well, I wasn't put in the scratch division and my score (with my measly 1 pin handicap) wasn't enough to win Division 1.
Needless to say I was upset at the situation. I could have voluntarily put myself in the Scratch division and I would have since that is the division I always enter and there is more prestige. But alas, I am stuck with my 3rd place finish in Division 1. At least I still shot 821 for my dad.
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Half the time tho, a consistent 2nd is better than tom, dick, and Harry, shooting lights out to win one event their entire life. You're still the Man to beat.
I have come to the conclusion that there's always someone better than me, especially with the amount of equipment there is nowadays.
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As mentioned above, they should make it to where you have to decide what you're bowling in before bowling any of them.
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The entry deadline for the tournament is midnight the day before the tournament starts. His all events fee wasn't paid in advance as he had no intention of bowling more than just team. He saw he had a good set in team so then signed up for doubles and singles and all events for the final weekend after bowling team.
I'm just not sure about waiting until after testing the water in team to decide to add all events or not . . because if everyone could do that, you'd have a lot of people shooting 550 and then opting not to enter all events if they didn't think they had a chance. It would be like allowing someone to bowl their first set in doubles or singles before deciding if they wanted in the 6 game combine or not.
I'm probably just salty. Things are so good in the pro shop that I don't get to bowl many tournaments to begin with, and then when every second place finish I get is more creative than the last one, it's just got me pissed off. Things are actually pretty good, I just miss being able to have some personal success with my own bowling. Thanks for the replies.
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The entry deadline for the tournament is midnight the day before the tournament starts. His all events fee wasn't paid in advance as he had no intention of bowling more than just team. He saw he had a good set in team so then signed up for doubles and singles and all events for the final weekend after bowling team.
I'm just not sure about waiting until after testing the water in team to decide to add all events or not . . because if everyone could do that, you'd have a lot of people shooting 550 and then opting not to enter all events if they didn't think they had a chance. It would be like allowing someone to bowl their first set in doubles or singles before deciding if they wanted in the 6 game combine or not.
I'm probably just salty. Things are so good in the pro shop that I don't get to bowl many tournaments to begin with, and then when every second place finish I get is more creative than the last one, it's just got me pissed off. Things are actually pretty good, I just miss being able to have some personal success with my own bowling. Thanks for the replies.
If this is how it happened, then you should protest. And you have every right to be "salty".
Although as a Pro Shop guy, it's probably not the smart thing to do. The perception of being a sore loser could actually hurt business.
Then again, my idea of customer service is alien to some here, so they may disagree. :o ;D
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The entry deadline for the tournament is midnight the day before the tournament starts. His all events fee wasn't paid in advance as he had no intention of bowling more than just team.
This is a good argument based on fact. I, personally, would bring this up b/c you got hosed.
He saw he had a good set in team so then signed up for doubles and singles and all events for the final weekend after bowling team.
This is exactly why the "entry deadline" (or in this tournaments' case....we know there is no enforced deadline so it doesn't exist) exists.
I'm just not sure about waiting until after testing the water in team to decide to add all events or not . . because if everyone could do that, you'd have a lot of people shooting 550 and then opting not to enter all events if they didn't think they had a chance. It would be like allowing someone to bowl their first set in doubles or singles before deciding if they wanted in the 6 game combine or not.
Yeah, pretty much.
I'm probably just salty.
I don't know....I think you have an argument.
Things are so good in the pro shop that I don't get to bowl many tournaments to begin with, and then when every second place finish I get is more creative than the last one, it's just got me pissed off. Things are actually pretty good, I just miss being able to have some personal success with my own bowling. Thanks for the replies.
I will add this......I do think you have a better argument to the tournament staff than those against the kid do as I think your opponent has actually a tangible advantage here as opposed to the clothes he wore (which would provide no "advantage"). You were actually "punished" by the decision whereas those in compliance w/the dress code, I PERSONALLY don't feel were "punished" by the kid wearing whatever.
I'll put it in these term: I wouldn't care what other people wear at nationals (even though there are rules on it) b/c I don't feel it affects me whereas if they could register for events later I would feel I got hosed. I'm not being punished by what others wear. Some may counter with, "then don't have a dress code for nationals", I'm down with that too.
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It should be ILLEGAL in any tournament to enter all-events AFTER you have even bowled 1 frame. You should file a protest. If nothing else, you may not get it reversed this year, but you might get it in the rules for future years to protect others.
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Our city tournament is two weekends with D/S and team events all shifts. All events has a separate prize fund. Our rule is that a bowler can't enter all events after he's thrown the first ball in competition. -- JohnP
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Man, it's a good thing Mighty Fish isn't still here, he would have a field day with this one. ;D
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Our city tournament is two weekends with D/S and team events all shifts. All events has a separate prize fund. Our rule is that a bowler can't enter all events after he's thrown the first ball in competition. -- JohnP
Same as every multiple event tournament I've ever bowled...
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Our city tournament is two weekends with D/S and team events all shifts. All events has a separate prize fund. Our rule is that a bowler can't enter all events after he's thrown the first ball in competition. -- JohnP
It sounds like OP has a similar deadline in his tournament. I can't wait to hear the reasoning they provide for completely ignoring the deadline and allowing the opponent to just spontaneously decide he's in AFTER his team set....
SPOILER: There is no valid reasoning.
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Man, it's a good thing Mighty Fish isn't still here, he would have a field day with this one. ;D
You already know WHO and WHAT would be mentioned.........you already know. ;D
He was as predictable as gravity.
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It really depends if it's the scratch all events title or the prize list. In all the city and state tournaments I've ever participated in they are two different things. Title is whoever is highest, prize list is whoever paid for the all events portion of the entry.
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It really depends if it's the scratch all events title or the prize list. In all the city and state tournaments I've ever participated in they are two different things. Title is whoever is highest, prize list is whoever paid for the all events portion of the entry.
If you don't pay into the AE, you can't win the title. I've never heard of such a thing as you described.
And to the OP, like others wrote, protest it. The tournament manager will most certainly see this error, and I'm sure even your worst critics will realize you are the champion.
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Tournament director checked it out and we reached a compromise. The other guy is shown as winning the title but I get the money and am the official winner. It's a little convoluted but I'm ok with it.
The really interesting thing here is actually a totally different issue. The average rules state that handicap is based on last year's high book average, and if there is no average from last year, then it's the January 1st average provided 21 games has been bowled already this season. I bowled lefthanded last year, so when the tournament director was verifying entering averages, that's the average he used. I bowled the tournament right handed though, so he adjusted the handicap after he realized that. My righty average this year is only a few pins higher than my lefty average was last year, we bowl on a second shift league and it gets nasty the last couple games, so everyone is down 10-15 pins from what they average in other leagues on the fresh, but that's the only league I'm bowling righty in this year.
Anyway, after adjusting my handicap the few pins, and then after I brought the all events thing to his attention, he called USBC asking for some clarification, and they told him an average was an average regardless of the hand it was obtained with. That's the only average I had last year, and being that it was within 4 pins of what I had on Jan 1 this year, it falls within the 10 pin rule and therefore I technically get to use it . . so it's odd and I don't really agree with it, but those apparently are the rules.
I've sent several emails to USBC asking for a separate sanction number for each hand so this isn't such a pain in the ass every time I bowl a tournament, but they keep saying I'm one person and they can't do that, that it would be like issuing someone two social security numbers or something. The rule is just that handicap is based off the highest average, so no matter what hand I bowl any tournament with, handicap is based off the high book average unless the 10 pin rule is invoked, so obviously if I average 170 lefthanded and then my Jan 1 average is 210, of course I'd be rerated . . however if I bowled a tournament lefthanded, I'd have to use my high book average whichever hand it was obtained with . . but this all makes not a whole lot of sense. I wish they'd just give me another sanction number, it would make it so much easier.
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I've actually heard of that. If you have the high all events score, you win the event, but if you didn't pay into the prize fund for it, you still are awarded the title, just not the money, the money goes to the entrant with the highest score that paid into the prize fund. It's not very common, but I've heard of it.
It really depends if it's the scratch all events title or the prize list. In all the city and state tournaments I've ever participated in they are two different things. Title is whoever is highest, prize list is whoever paid for the all events portion of the entry.
If you don't pay into the AE, you can't win the title. I've never heard of such a thing as you described.
And to the OP, like others wrote, protest it. The tournament manager will most certainly see this error, and I'm sure even your worst critics will realize you are the champion.
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Maybe you've never heard of such a thing, but it is the rule. You can win the title, just not the money associated with it. If you knock down the most pins you are the champion, you just may not get the top prize in the prize list if you didn't pay the all events fee.
Rule 306 – All-Events
Participants in a tournament may be charged an optional fee for an all-events contest when two or more events are scheduled or when two or more tournaments are conducted under the same management. When an all-events fee is charged, the following apply:
a. Expense fees may be charged for participation in an optional all-events contest when in accordance with the requirements in Rule 305.
b. The all-events fee must be paid before the advertised closing date for entries or before the participant bowls any of the events, whichever comes rst.
c. An all-events entry can be transferred if the transfer is made before either of the bowlers involved have participated in any event of the tournament.
d. Distribution of prizes shall comply with the formula prescribed for payment of regular position prizes and the ratio of return shall be at least one to 20 or major fraction thereof, unless the tournament rules state another prize ratio. Where a trophy or award, other than cash awards, is offered for the all-events championship, the bowler who places rst in all-events is entitled to the award even if the bowler did not pay the optional fee. In such instances, the trophy or award cannot be considered as part of the all-events prize fund, and must be purchased from other funds.
e. Youth tournaments: The all-events fee shall not be greater than the highest awards fee charged for any event of the tournament.
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I was just looking at the entry form. It states that late entries could be accepted if prior approval was given by the tournament board. If approval was given I don't see why they should have a problem with them winning.
Our tournaments have gotten so desperate for entries they allow entries up to the last squad bowled. They also allow re-entry in doubles and singles but only the first score bowled counts towards all events. You can only cash once but bowl several times.
I don't care for either of these practices. There should be a hard deadline and one chance to score.
Almost regardless of what they shot in the first set there was no guarantee they could take the lead after bowling doubles/singles.
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Yeah, the issue isn't with the entry of doubles and singles, and they do allow late entries despite the deadline because participation is low, but there's a USBC rule against entering all events after one qualifying event has already been bowled. If he would have added another team event and re-bowled in addition to adding doubles and singles and taken all events from those three squads, no issue. But testing the water and then retroactively wanting to enter all events is not allowed period regardless of allowing late entries into the events. If you could bowl an event or two before you decided if you wanted into all events, no one would sign up early, they would wait it out to see how the first event or two went.
I was just looking at the entry form. It states that late entries could be accepted if prior approval was given by the tournament board. If approval was given I don't see why they should have a problem with them winning.
Our tournaments have gotten so desperate for entries they allow entries up to the last squad bowled. They also allow re-entry in doubles and singles but only the first score bowled counts towards all events. You can only cash once but bowl several times.
I don't care for either of these practices. There should be a hard deadline and one chance to score.
Almost regardless of what they shot in the first set there was no guarantee they could take the lead after bowling doubles/singles.
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Yes, this is in fact correct. So by rule, he wins the title, but I get the money, which is fair and acceptable, because after bowling the team event, he wasn't eligible for the prize fund, but still eligible for the title. Our TD is a good guy, he got it all sorted out in a matter of hours with no fuss.
Maybe you've never heard of such a thing, but it is the rule. You can win the title, just not the money associated with it. If you knock down the most pins you are the champion, you just may not get the top prize in the prize list if you didn't pay the all events fee.
Rule 306 – All-Events
Participants in a tournament may be charged an optional fee for an all-events contest when two or more events are scheduled or when two or more tournaments are conducted under the same management. When an all-events fee is charged, the following apply:
a. Expense fees may be charged for participation in an optional all-events contest when in accordance with the requirements in Rule 305.
b. The all-events fee must be paid before the advertised closing date for entries or before the participant bowls any of the events, whichever comes rst.
c. An all-events entry can be transferred if the transfer is made before either of the bowlers involved have participated in any event of the tournament.
d. Distribution of prizes shall comply with the formula prescribed for payment of regular position prizes and the ratio of return shall be at least one to 20 or major fraction thereof, unless the tournament rules state another prize ratio. Where a trophy or award, other than cash awards, is offered for the all-events championship, the bowler who places rst in all-events is entitled to the award even if the bowler did not pay the optional fee. In such instances, the trophy or award cannot be considered as part of the all-events prize fund, and must be purchased from other funds.
e. Youth tournaments: The all-events fee shall not be greater than the highest awards fee charged for any event of the tournament.