Post by: looseleftie on January 31, 2009, 10:21:52 PM
Saw a young guy pick his av up 30 pins within a season with this technique.. That is very impressive.
Love your thoughts on whether the speed/power/rev count/angle of entry VERSUS stress on body is worth it all.. I'm typing this as I sit here with a sore hip!
Obviously the physicality of this delivery is its main negative.
Belmonte and Oska are just two who spring to mind.. Yet they are in their early to mid 20's I think...
Any chiropracters/doctors who might like to add their thoughts on this would be most welcome
Take care
Looseleftie
Post by: echidapus on February 01, 2009, 06:54:23 AM
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High game 300
High series 804
High triplicate 774
High average 221
best game. when I was 6 I bowled a 158
Post by: charlest on February 01, 2009, 07:07:49 AM
For those who are in good shape and who keep themselves in top notch shape, even they might not realize that they might have some genetic weakness that will hit them later in life. The twisting and the bent over delivery of the 2 handed approach might make this worse when it does strike them. Maybe a lot worse.
Bowling itself already puts some odd physical stresses, especially when done often. Look at all the hand and arm maladies that already strike most of us at sometome!
This is very like the Pro football players who become crippled after 5 - 10 - 15 years of playing. They made huge salaries. Maybe they even had "fun" and saved up a lot. Maybe they didn't. But if it all goes to pay medical bills and they need crtuches for the last 40 years of their life, and their millions of saved dollars all goes to pay the doctor and hospital, was it worth it?
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Smash49 on February 01, 2009, 11:50:02 AM
Smash49
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Smash49
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Post by: Xcessive_Evil on February 01, 2009, 11:54:41 AM
He, and the other 2 handers can keep it. Not for me. My rev rate is moderately high anyway. I don't need any more.
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Hope this is not Chris' blood....
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Post by: DON DRAPER on February 01, 2009, 02:40:51 PM
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on February 01, 2009, 02:49:13 PM
quote:
there was a time when the thumbless style had many abuzz......in the longrun the best players will use one hand and their thumb.
I do agree with this.
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: supernoodle on February 01, 2009, 03:14:36 PM
People are always pointing out the likes of Osku and Belmonte but these are the exception rather than the rule. Anybody that knows anything about bowling knows that trying to bowl two handed/no thumb/palming is very difficult, Yes it has its benefits mostly in the rev/power stakes but that is offset by the difficulties in control which you see with the stroker/cranker debate now.
I would still advocate teaching people (especially children) the basics and once they have a decent grasp of the fundimentals then tailor their release to suit their game/physique which would encompass all styles including that of a two hander.
The problem that may be faced is that kids already want to bowl a massive hook at all costs because it looks good and they see some of the pro's doing it. I have already seen an increase in kids wanting to bowl two handed regardless of the fact they can't hit a barn door with a banjo and frankly it makes me shake my head, especially when you have the likes of Walter Ray & Norm Duke who have shown that it pays more to be accurate rather than "Powerful".
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I would have got away with it if it was not for those pesky kids (Behind my lane) and those blasted 10 pins.
Post by: charlest on February 01, 2009, 03:25:25 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: pin-chaser on February 01, 2009, 08:26:22 PM
He never has taken spare shooting seriously anyway. All I see is more volitility... 260's then 160's using two hands. His carry is ASTRONIMCAL on off hits and lots of 9's on otherwise solid shots. His rev rate is over 500 now (with one hand was ~450) and his ball speed is over 20 (and was ~18.5).
So all I can say is that, he can open up the backends more than the rest of us (especially on fresh backends) and it is exciting to watch some of those strikes. If he would ever decide he would be the best spare shooter instead of a prolific striker with either method he would be awesome. As it is he is a typcial THS bowler maximizing what the house gives you without building skill.
As for my opinion on the validity of two handed bowling, I believe that as long as bowling has the emphasis on power (on strike balls) over skill, the more you can achieve no matter how you do it the more success (???) you will have. So it is a valid method. It is my belief and bowling will require more skill (accuracy and repeatability) and as such traditional bowling (one handed) will provide the best solution.
As well, arguably, a solid foundation (bowling style the likes of Ozio ...etc) would produce a bowler that can with stand the long haul (throughout the years as the emphasis of skills change).
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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
Post by: Danes07 on February 02, 2009, 05:32:09 AM
A couple of years ago the guy that won the local Masters Tournament was a 2-handed bowler. The guy he beat is arguably one of the best in the area and one of the better bowlers on NYS. He's a member of NYS Hall of Fame and used to run the oil machines on the Tour years ago. If you were to just look at the quality of the shots thrown by the two of them, then the 2-handed bowler would have lost badly. He won because he could carry off hits a lot better and had a lot more miss room to bring the ball back from.
Yeah, its more powerful, but I think I'll stick with what I'm doing. I may never be tour quality, but I gave up on that thought a long time ago.
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University at Albany 2007
-Let's Go Danes-
ROTO GRIP - King of Them All
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Post by: BWDavy on February 02, 2009, 05:46:44 AM
I am more of a stroker, having been bowling over 30 years. The equipment available today allows me to stay competitive, but this latest evolution will take off and become every popular. No point worrying about it, its here to stay.
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If life is like a box of chocolates, what do you do if you don't like chocolate?
Post by: Pat Patterson on February 02, 2009, 08:26:54 AM
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Pat Patterson
Post by: dpunky on February 02, 2009, 10:27:18 AM
I'm to the belief now that there is no one right way to bowl.
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Ken - aka "dpunky" - Certified USBC Level I Coach
Post by: AdrianS on February 02, 2009, 05:47:11 PM
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Time for some REAL bowling!!!
Post by: nd300 on February 02, 2009, 06:02:23 PM
You're right in that there's no one correct way to bowl.Whatever knocks down the pins. The kids today see the two handed guys carry everything they hit and if they miss a spare,the thinking is that they'll just strike more to make it up.
Simply put,they won't learn until they lose a tournament by missing that spare.
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Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........
Post by: lsf_21 on February 03, 2009, 02:59:19 PM
quote:
It should be illegal
go away somehwere and never come back until you can offer a opinion worth something.. its not our fault that 2 handers are better than you.
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!
Post by: BrunsMike on February 03, 2009, 05:50:18 PM
Years back there was a bowling style that was popular in Asia. Could still be popular but I havn't seen or heard about it that much in a while. These guys would spin the ball in such a way that it would mix up the pins and could carry most of the time. The real term is Helicopter Release. These bowlers only had a life span of 10-20 years before the tendens in your wrist gave out. Heres a clip of the spinner/helicopter style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CasqmIbudPY&feature=related
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: David Lee Yskes on February 03, 2009, 06:01:51 PM
I mean if going 2handed was such an advantage why isnt Osku and Belmonte on the PBA tour?????????????? Or why isnt more guys on tour doing the 2handed delivery?
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" Lift Your Skirt Grab Your Balls and Learn How to Bowl " http://coolluvr4u1976.bowlspace.com/
Post by: BrunsMike on February 03, 2009, 10:24:50 PM
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Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: on February 04, 2009, 05:43:20 AM
I have given it more of a go, I have begun to get more of a forward roll hook release if this makes any sense, and the strike rate when it hits the pocket is pretty good (this is with a modest angle of entry),but lighter hits seem to carry that little better. Physically, hip is better (must have tried a tad too hard last week), and whilst I'm only getting around 15 mph for the moment, no problems.. Scores eratic at present, yet I can see some pluses in this style..
Curious though, about release, if I come from under the ball, and rip it up, ball really revs up, but slides long time down the lane often leaving multiple pins for my second shot per frame, when I use fingers with no additional help from wrist, Its kind of like Spiderman, casting a web, my palm is very open upon release, helping with forward axis rotation, ball appears to be revving considerably less, yet when it gets into its hook stage, really drives through..
Is this the correct release position? Open palm, the Spiderman thingy, it feels unusual to release like this, my track seems a little further away from the normal semi roller position too..
Additional to the two handers out there, or anyone in the know, to attain the speed that Oska/Belmo shoot,which is around 1.90 - 2.10 sec approx on most shots, how much comes from the arm on the downswing? Is this where the potential for back injuries occur, in attempting to throw the ball this hard, with such a reliance on the twisting of your torso?
Have bowled close on two weeks with this technique, mainly as an experimant as a result of having a weaker release with poor speed, i have found it is certainly interesting enough for me to continue at least for a couple of months or so.
I can understand that ceratin bowlers take issue with this, I guess I am intrigued by the style and also the increasing popularity and increased scoring of your humble league bowlers out there! (to which I am one)
Advice always appreciated, as I'm sure that there may be many others out there considering this style of bowling.
Take care
Looseleftie
Post by: looseleftie on February 04, 2009, 05:46:46 AM
Curious though, about release, if I come from under the ball, and rip it up, ball really revs up, but slides long time down the lane often leaving multiple pins for my second shot per frame, when I use fingers with no additional help from wrist, Its kind of like Spiderman, casting a web, my palm is very open upon release, helping with forward axis rotation, ball appears to be revving considerably less, yet when it gets into its hook stage, really drives through..
Is this the correct release position? Open palm, the Spiderman thingy, it feels unusual to release like this, my track seems a little further away from the normal semi roller position too..
Any advice on this,always appreciated.
Additional to the two handers out there, or anyone in the know, to attain the speed that Oska/Belmo shoot,which is around 1.90 - 2.10 sec approx on most shots, how much comes from the arm on the downswing? Is this where the potential for back injuries occur, in attempting to throw the ball this hard, with such a reliance on the twisting of your torso?
Have bowled close on two weeks with this technique, mainly as an experimant, but it is certainly interesting enough for me to continue at least for a couple of months or so. When i see an increase in this technique at a league level, and see the results of my fellow league bowlers it makes me think hard about this style.
Take care
Looseleftie
Post by: Gazoo on February 04, 2009, 05:59:15 AM
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Post by: Siniak on February 04, 2009, 02:30:57 PM
"Bolivia's Two-Handed Project"
"Full Men's and Boys' team bowls two-handed at South American Championships"
http://www.bowlingdigital.com/bowling/node/25477/1
Post by: dukeblue87 on February 04, 2009, 03:18:52 PM
Q: Describe yourself in 10 words.
A: Jason Belmonte's future ball caddy.
Apparently Chris Barnes thinks it has a future.
http://www.worldtenpinmasters.com/staticPage.asp?strPageName=Chris%20Barnes
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Two Hands are better than one!!