Post by: LuckyLefty on February 04, 2004, 08:04:25 PM
Went to edit and deleted this forum. Didn't see any of the comments sorry!!!!!!!! Never did that before!
redone!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Two handed bowling is THE "Next Big Thing in Bowling".
Today O**gakkk##F Fin**lljffiidxcixx er you get it(finn) is in 6th place at the US open.
I knew when I first saw my son naturally do itat age 4throw a 10 pound ball at about 12 mph with about 14 revs and shoot 156 without bumpersthat this was an incredible thing.
Then a Yaba instructor who averaged about160 told him he couldn't keep bowling in Yaba if he didn't switch to one handed. Then he had to go back to 6 pounds, and had about 6 revs. Lost his mojo!
THen I saw a 13 year old rail thin kid beat in a scratch tournament for $2000 a 6 foot 2 270 pound 17 inch forearm cranker with about a 270 with 3 times the mistake area, that's when I really got the clue that this method is something special.
Just like the once scorned two hand in tennis the player can easily add or take away revs at release in response to the swing path due to the free arm.
Just as in tennis they can disguise with the two hand their final direction till the last split second. And in bowling there are no reach issues.
TWO Hand 836 can probably add to this.
You heard it here IT IS, Bowling's next thing here from me NOBODY!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS sorry about the delete of your posts guys! ooops!
Post by: Smash49 on February 05, 2004, 11:33:31 AM
Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Reduces or eliminates problems with Slick OR Tacky approaches.
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Post by: no1bucsfan on February 05, 2004, 11:45:25 AM
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You can always hit em hard when you've got the balls
Lefties are the only people in their right minds.
no1bucsfan
Post by: bennett on February 05, 2004, 11:50:39 AM
quote:
But in sanctioned leagues you have to state which hand you bowl with and connot swith hands during bowling. with this being the case how can you legally bowl 2 handed?
2 handed bowling should be illegal. ABC needs to step in, but does nothing. I could bowl with 2 hands in the beginning of the season, have a lower average then in the middle once my average is established go back to one hand. This would be a benefit to the team if I did this since I would average higher with one hand as I'm used to it. That's why one can't switch between right/left handed. Same should hold true with 2 hands.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Edited on 2/5/2004 12:47 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 11:53:27 AM
It is that awesome!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: bennett on February 05, 2004, 12:05:31 PM
It should be illegal and ABC should step in. I've seen the 2 handed bowlers and they USE BOTH HANDS in the set up all the way to the delivery. This may not be true for all 2 handed bowlers but everyone that I've seen uses BOTH hands all the way to the delivery.
But for me as far as revs go, I'm getting plenty with one hand and I have trouble on dry lanes as it is. I don't need more revs as 2 of my leagues are drier lanes only one has oil and that is the one I'm 225 in.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 01:04:24 PM
Oh the tourney where I watched the 13 year old cream old man muscles bulging was on very dry heads.
Score like 270.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: no1bucsfan on February 05, 2004, 01:07:25 PM
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You can always hit em hard when you've got the balls
Lefties are the only people in their right minds.
no1bucsfan
Post by: TWells1960 on February 05, 2004, 01:17:19 PM
Post by: livespive on February 05, 2004, 01:20:37 PM
j/k)Are there any links with pictures, or video clips of this release?
I am curious and would like to see it in action. I don't want to
use it (my frame is to wide lol), just want to see it.
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 01:21:42 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Jeff The Chef on February 05, 2004, 01:25:01 PM
If everybody is talking about what I think they are, this link has a decent video of the release:
http://www.totalbowling.com.au/www/live/2004sacup/multimedia/Jason_Belmonte.mpg
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I tripled my revs on 12/29/2003!
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 01:27:42 PM
Hand stays on the ball, where I think if you try it is just natural.
I've tried it to help my daughter and it's one of those things ya just do.
Easy!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: livespive on February 05, 2004, 01:32:55 PM
Did Del Ballard throw like that back in his Blue
hammer days?
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: Outrage300 on February 05, 2004, 01:51:47 PM
When the shot was fresh he absolutely was killing it. Couldn't believe the
room he had. Then the lanes transitioned and he couldn't get it far enough right.
With a little more experience and understanding of the lanes, he would have been fine.
Also, the kid was real good with spares. Don't believe him missed any 10 pins.
With the two hands he could get plenty of speed on the ball. Of course he was around 6'5" tall. Lots of leverage.
Lot of power but you still need to read the lanes..
Outrage
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 05, 2004, 02:05:41 PM
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: johns811 on February 05, 2004, 02:09:48 PM
Post by: no1bucsfan on February 05, 2004, 02:15:17 PM
The only two hander I have seen is an 10 yr old kid, and he kicks azz with it. But he doesn't pull away the left hand before the release. He uses both hands to torque the he11 out of the ball. He uses a plastic ball and gets at least 10 boards of movement out of it near the back end.
--------------------
You can always hit em hard when you've got the balls
Lefties are the only people in their right minds.
no1bucsfan
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 05, 2004, 02:27:11 PM
Believe me...I see what you are saying. All I am trying to sa, is that there is a misconception that the other hand is used to generate more speed and revs. Granted, I cannot see those other people just like they cannot see me. If there is a ?? is anyone's mind, just watch the setup. If the second hand is on top of the ball, is is being used to create more speed and revs. If the hand is under the ball, such as mine, it is only there as a means of support. I am only defending this because I have had some people here in my hometown tell me it should be illegal. But, I see that only as a means of jealousy, because EVERYONE wants some form in order to be one up on the opponent. I do respect everyone on this site. Therefore, I am very approachable if anyone out there has any concerns or thought about anything. Also...I have to defend myself and others if I feel I am being bashed by people who don't know me. The ones doing the bashing are including all 2 handed bowlers; not just the one they were watching at the time.
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 02:38:32 PM
All the people I have seen leave their normally free hand on top of the ball.
It is then used to fight revs if pulled or add revs if ball is pushed.
Imagine someone had started golf as a one handed game and there were no rules about anyone using two hands and then one day a guy did. Then everyone laughed and laughed and laughed and then all of a sudden he started winning golfing with two hands. All of sudden they all switched.
Again, a guy in the US open TODAY was in 6th place!! His name is Olfgf###ffff Torngenyohansone###### some finnish you get it!
TWO HANDING IT!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Never forget the world was flat(no doubt about that) until one day someone said it was round and then everyone laughed and laughed and laughed, and some got mad too! Ooops now they seem to think it is round!
Post by: DP3 on February 05, 2004, 03:03:15 PM
X X 8/ 8/ 9/ X 9/ 9- X X8/
28 48 66 85 105 125 144 153 181 201
and end a block with a 630 set
Now bowling two handed I have a revrate easily around 470+ with a speed of about 17.5-19 mph(Not sure exactly). Now on wide open conditions I can string a game like this(while making spares with my thumb in and making a test adjustment on the last ball) also the release is the same everytime since you don't have to worry about clearing the thumb, and opening up the lane is never a problem since your shoulders have to be open to release the ball so it naturally feeds right.
(6)2 X X X X X 8/ X 9/ XX7
8 38 68 98 126 146 166 186 206 233
and end a block with a high 690-low 700 set
Now which game would you rather have in a high scoring enviornment where there is alot of money at stakes. My targeting system remains the same, the only thing is I create alot more area for myself and I don't need to make adjustments nearly as fast as I normally would. On tighter conditions with fresh backends I can move a little right and create nearly 5 more boards area than anyone else in the building has and when the oil is long and heavy I love it since I don't have a problem with not generating enough angle.
The downside is opens at really bad times due to bad leaves going through the face or coming up light(the 2-4-6-10 seems to be my favorite) and dry conditons unless I use a 14lb ball or so. The upside is generating unbelievable pin carry, area, and getting out of trouble when I go light(2-8-10s rarely happen as a messenger seems to always come for the 10 pin), and creating a psychological advantage over the rest of the field. On flatter sport conditions I can also create more much needed area. Also equipment plays a small factor. Any medium-aggressive resin will work for 4-6 games on the same path to the pocket with minimal adjustments.
This summer I am going to drop down to 15lb and maybe some 14 for drier conditions and bowl my summer leagues two handed and see how much more or less I average before I come back for my fall leagues and my last year of collegiate bowling.
--------------------
-D. Marshall
ScratchBowling.com Shirt Staff 2003-2004
Edited on 2/5/2004 4:40 PM
Post by: bennett on February 05, 2004, 03:56:49 PM
So for the first time we see a guy that bowls with 2 hands on tour. Big deal, most of the pros use one hand. I have a guy on my team that uses 2 hands and he averages 210, but he's a lefty. Another guy on my team (his brother) also bowls with 2 hands, gets a ton of revs but isn't accurate. He averages 170's. Both have used 2 hands for at least 5+ years and they are young guys. They hold on the ball through the release and if they don't it must be a split second because it looks like 2 hands all the way.
Bottom line, it may work for them, but it isn't for everybody. I tried it once and I was totally inaccurate.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: michelle on February 05, 2004, 04:09:28 PM
quote:
If I bowl with one hand during the season (high average is 225), now I switch to 2 hands and I suddenly average 245 in the middle of the season and cream everybody you can bet there would be some talk.
and this would be different from the bowler who improves 20 pins after some lessons or coaching work how? Many bowlers make changes to their game through the course of a season. If someone makes the change (in earnest) and their average goes up, it is exactly the same as someone that improves because of some of the lessons learned with a coach.
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 05, 2004, 04:39:39 PM
I have only vaguely tried it. Like many I'm sort of comfortable with what I do.
After changing from right to left that's enough time to suffer before you feel like your getting it.
Oh yeah, two hand can be on either side of the lane. Right or left!
Just like a two handed forehand or backhand.
Remember it looks a lot like regular bowling just the usually free hand is left on the ball to assist in adding or subtracting revs and guiding. Also it doesn't look as pretty.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Sir_rev-a-lot on February 06, 2004, 01:12:16 AM
quote:
It should be illegal and ABC should step in. I've seen the 2 handed bowlers and they USE BOTH HANDS in the set up all the way to the delivery. This may not be true for all 2 handed bowlers but everyone that I've seen uses BOTH hands all the way to the delivery.
To the naked eye it appears to be this way, due to the speed of the armswing of most. I have seen TH834 tapes, and when you break it down into a Cats Anaylsis, the hand comes off fractions of a second before the fingers on the throwing hand exits the ball. Considering all the things ABC has let slide by in the past 20 years, if any one could even come up with a solid enough case, they wouldn't outlaw it. The basics of matchup is still the same. Ratio of Revs/Speed. The higher the number, earlier it will roll, and vice versa. Just with 2 hands, the numbers are higher. All these in a quest to find the proper equilibrium (Spelling?) between accuracy and power.
I don't see it become much of a craze anytime soon just because of the coordination it involves. I have seen many people in the area attempt it once or twice, and most of the time they can't even let go of the ball because they are so out of balance and timing. Since I have pretty much stopped bowling this summer, I haven't been out that much in the centers, but I can probably count the number of people that could pull it off on my hand. Jabs and TH834 might can name another 1 or 2, but I have only seen maybe 4-5 people who with a little bit of time put it could be effective with it. It is a skill IMO to pull it off.
quote:
TwoHand834 is a good friend of mine and he will say the same thing. He used to bowl with his thumb in it but had trouble with oil. With the two handed technique he can have unlimited revrate.
Had trouble in oil, nahhhhh. HE was killer on dry though. Heck in the parking lot he was playing 2nd arrow. (Sorry bud, I had to get that cheap shot in on ya). Those that want to this into an misconception, Before he went 2handed, he averaged in the mid-210s (If I recall right, this was during the short oil era). so it wasn't like he was just an average bowler before. He just looked to enhanced his game and try to take it to another tier. Maybe Jabroni should take lessons, and when he is out here with us league hacks, throw 2 handed to impress us.
Post by: bennett on February 06, 2004, 10:14:42 AM
Can I throw the ball between my legs? Is that legal?
From there I will use two hands midseason, one hand latter season. I think I can improve my average.
When you think of these things you will see that ABC should make it illegal to bowl with 2 hands.
--------------------
I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 06, 2004, 12:20:03 PM
Hmmm?
All this stuff is only important for handicap.
None of it is relevant to scratch.
REgards,
Luckylefty
I used to bowl in a tournament where a righty threw a backup ball to take advantage of lefty conditions at times. I saw him throw a 3 and an 8 doing it.
Is he a left hander? Note as conditions have changed on the lanes many places I saw him more and more throwing right side of the lanes with a traditional hook.
Post by: Sir_rev-a-lot on February 06, 2004, 12:38:10 PM
quote:
Can I establish an average by kicking the ball down the lane...lol? I heard Verapapa did this, seriously.
Can I throw the ball between my legs? Is that legal?
From there I will use two hands midseason, one hand latter season. I think I can improve my average.
When you think of these things you will see that ABC should make it illegal to bowl with 2 hands.
--------------------
I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
the difference is the between the legs and kicking the ball would fall under the rules of sandbagging, giving one a purposeful advantage in terms of garnering handicap. IF you have never bowled before 2 handed, then yes it be under the sandbagging rules also. IF you have spent legitimate times practicing on it with relative regularity, and you are using it to take advantage of the condition, then no its not a problem.
in TH834 case, I doubt i have seen him throw 1-handed on a first shot a total of 10 times in the last 5 years. Its not like he switches back and forth, in fact a couple of times I have bowled with him at Team Challenge's and thought he might have been better served to go to 1 hand.
Let's put it another way. For those that think it should be outlawed, what legitimate argument would you bring before ABC based on facts to argue with?
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 06, 2004, 10:26:05 PM
Two handed guy O*fkkek*** Pe*rmku***flays leads the US open!
Hmmmm.
Did somebody say bowling's next big thing?
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 09, 2004, 05:24:56 AM
"I'm gonna go out and try it tomorrow".
There is no logical reason why this method is not better. Only draw back may be more strain on back and legs.
Still use one hand under the ball. Backswing length is limited to a pretty compact style. A heavier ball can be used than with one arm. ( my son the perfect example at age 4 using a 10 pound ball with two arm,struggling with a 6 with one arm). Higher revs are achieved. 4 year old son had about 15 with two hand.
Extra guide arm can add or take away revs giving more area!
It is really something that is coming.
Today's US open showing is just the beginning. Five years from now they might say about you, "Ah you know, he's one of those old time one handers!"
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS you can fight it or examine it. Either way it is coming and it is coming faster than you think!
PPS hey what are those guys doing with those boards?snowboarding eh, this is a ski hill!, that snowboarding will never take off?
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 08:27:21 AM
I think you see my point. The right hand is assisting through the delivery to the release. When I bowl with one hand I'm only holding the ball at the top and once I start my swing my left hand is OFF the ball. It assists in nothing.
Bowling with 2 hands clearly allows the bowler to bowl thumbless, throw more revs by helping with the left hand. All of this assists in that goal which evidently isn't achieved with one hand. I have 2 bowlers on my team that throw like this and they CAN'T generate revs with one hand. They are kids and it's like a dead bowl if they throw with one hand.
ABC needs to clarify the rules. If they don't do anything, then it should be fair for all bowlers to bowl left or right handed and switch them if somebody can walk up and bowl with 2 hands.
Also, I could start the season with 2 hands, have a lower average, then go to one hand, have a higher average. Would this be legal? I don't think so and that's my point.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: bamaster on February 09, 2004, 09:03:25 AM
Rules are rules, huh?
Blah... shut up and bowl.
Tony
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 09, 2004, 10:20:30 AM
The only VALID argument I hear is a bowler entering a league bowling one handed (or two handed) establishing an average .. then going in a handicap tournament and reversing his style .. THAT COULD BE A PROBLEM .. if there are SAND BAGGERS with one handed bowling .. I can imagine what they could do with this .. something like this COULD BE MADE FOR HUSTLERS!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 10:33:03 AM
On tour he should be able to do whatever he wants, I'll agree. On tour, you can switch between right/left hands.
However, ABC has a rule about using a certain hand for bowling. You CAN'T switch in ABC league play and you must be designated as a right handed or a left handed bowler. When somebody uses 2 hands for a strike and 1 hand for a spare isn't he/she is bending the ABC rules? I think so.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 09, 2004, 10:52:53 AM
quote:
ABC has a rule about using a certain hand for bowling. You CAN'T switch in ABC league play and you must be designated as a right handed or a left handed bowler. When somebody uses 2 hands for a strike and 1 hand for a spare isn't he/she is bending the ABC rules? I think so.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
It would be my opinion that if he puts FINGERS of his hand (right or left)in the ball, that would be considered the HAND he is bowling with .. the hand holding the ball without fingers inserted is a SUPPORT .. now that's what I see .. and seems reasonable to me .. if someone can develop this and become EXPERT . I see it no different then a LOFT technique ..
EDIT: Don't know why this is showing with large font .. I didn't ask for it!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Edited on 2/9/2004 11:50 AM
Post by: pagnouch on February 09, 2004, 11:03:50 AM
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Champions Train-Losers Complain!!
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 09, 2004, 11:18:31 AM
This post is not about handicap equivalency.
It is about a method!!! Period!
Obviously this is easy to track, list a seperate average two handed! Easy!
Back to the method it is incredible. Where is it stated that one cannot use a second hand??? It may, I just don't know.
Everyone is missing the point, this method does not automatically increase revs, it also allows a decrease with the guiding hand fighting off pulls.
Again, I go back to the golf analogy, would you rather play one handed or two handed? It's obvious!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: pagnouch on February 09, 2004, 11:31:06 AM
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Champions Train-Losers Complain!!
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 12:10:08 PM
Now, the pro tour is different. Makes no difference as one could switch hands. Most of use here AREN'T ON TOUR. We are league bowlers. So, it has everything to do with handicap as some league bowlers are using 2 hands and it should be illegal compared to using only one hand. Why else would they use 2 hands? The reason: They can't generate the revs with one hand otherwise why do it? If one can start off using one hand then switch mid season using 2 hands we have a big problem here.
Getting back to the point of this thread. It shouldn't be "the next big thing in bowling." Why? Because it should be illegal the same way ABC disallows a bowler to switch hands.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: TTforshort on February 09, 2004, 12:25:39 PM
quote:
Getting back to the point of this thread. It shouldn't be "the next big thing in bowling." Why? Because it should be illegal the same way ABC disallows a bowler to switch hands.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
This statement is a bunch of BS.
Almost every bowler I know uses his free hand to support the ball when he begins his approach. The only thing different about the two handed style is that the bowler supports the ball throughout the release.
The difference?? TIME!
Maybe we should petition for a rule that says only one hand may touch the ball and that is the had you grip with.
TT
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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Post by: Curly on February 09, 2004, 12:26:53 PM
Next big thing?....Dont see it happening.
Do I care? No
A local HS team has a kid that bowls with two hands. He actually releases with both. Normally, he is a no thumb spinner. He shoots at right side spares with both hands. What a pleasure to watch! Now, I am not saying he is good, just a pleasure to watch. Hilarious, really. How does he do this without ending up in a full body cast?! LOL! I dont know, but thats what he likes to do. More power to him.......
Post by: Ishmael on February 09, 2004, 12:34:35 PM
quote:
Getting back to the point of this thread. It shouldn't be "the next big thing in bowling." Why? Because it should be illegal the same way ABC disallows a bowler to switch hands.
The two handed bowler is still bowling right handed or left handed depending on which side of the body the ball is released on. It's not the same as changing hands. It's merely a different style. By your logic, a guy would not be allowed to change from stroker to cranker if he wanted. BS.
Post by: laner7pin on February 09, 2004, 12:43:33 PM
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Whats that made of?
14 Karat Gold.
Really??? Looks like rubber!
No the ring, not the hand....
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 12:51:10 PM
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Post by: Ishmael on February 09, 2004, 12:59:24 PM
quote:
therefore he is actually using TWO hands... and that proves to be illegal, because HS bowling in NJ goes by ABC rules
Can you quote the ABC rule that refers to this scenario? I can't seem to find it.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on February 09, 2004, 01:01:58 PM
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: omegabowler on February 09, 2004, 01:10:43 PM
if the ball always has the same path, i.e. hooks into the 1-3 with the pap on the same side of the ball, who cares?
as for avg issue. if I crank the ball, spray the lanes hitting all 5 arrows and avg 162 then switch to a stroker style and avg 220 for the rest of the season, is that not the same thing as switching 1 hand to 2?
as long as it is always a right handed ball path or always a left handed ball path. it's legal as far as I can see.
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny
Post by: JOE FALCO on February 09, 2004, 01:30:40 PM
I think the TWO HANDED bowling might be something that young folks will pick up on .. the only discouraging thing is the BACK PROBLEM .. but I don't FULLY UNDERSTAND where that comes from ..the FIN looked pretty smooth in his delivery! That is the first time I saw the technique!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: DP3 on February 09, 2004, 01:53:58 PM
If two handed bowling is illegal all the 20 some two handed bowlers that bowl tournaments such as
High Roller
Mini Eliminator
True Amatuer Challenge
US OPEN
ABC Masters
PBA Regionals(yes there are regional players that throw it with two hands)
WOULD BE DISQUALIFIED AND NOT ABLE TO BOWL. Not to mention the two handed bowlers that bowl CBUSA(College Bowling USA). There are tournament officials on location at all of these tournaments who know the rules alot better than everyone on this board. So can we put the argument to rest?
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-D. Marshall
ScratchBowling.com Shirt Staff 2003-2004
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 09, 2004, 02:22:36 PM
Where in the rule book does this say this?
REGards,
Luckylefty
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 03:40:39 PM
Rule 606. A bowler using a two-hand delivery will establish an average with two hands. When the bowler changes to a one-hand delivery, they must establish a new average using that hand.
So, this isn't stated like this in ABC, but ABC clearly states that you must establish an average using either the right hand or left. You can only switch if you have a medical problem. Nothing is stated about using two-hands that I could find. If anybody can find it I would appreciate the info. The point I'm trying to make is that ABC is lacking here. The subject should be defined.
Back to the point. Actually, if the ABC follows the YABA rules, my teamate shouldn't be allowed to shoot his 10 pin with one hand and use two hands for his strike shot ball. In addition, what we saw on TV by the Finish guy is also illegal if he were in the YABA. CASE CLOSED.
I never said bowling with 2 hands is illegal (I said only it "should" be based on the current rules). I'm saying it needs to be defined properly by ABC as using either the right/left hand is different from using 2 hands. Rules need to be stated clearly, but it isn't by ABC.
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.
Edited on 2/9/2004 4:36 PM
Edited on 2/9/2004 4:38 PM
Post by: bennett on February 09, 2004, 04:01:30 PM
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I want to have a 220+ average like everybody else around here, so give me fresh oil.