Author Topic: Two Theories (Read 4412 times)

MichiganBowling · « **on:** October 19, 2004, 05:27:29 AM »

It seems as though we have 2 theories that are being discussed when it comes to "how to turn the ship around". Again, we are talking about 2 goals:

GOAL 1: To return integrity to bowling to make it a real sport once again.
GOAL 2: To increase the number of bowlers in our sport by promoting bowling as a fun activity to recreational bowlers or to people who do not bowl currently.

All of us seem to agree that we want both of those things to happen. So now which direction do we need to go to make them happen?

1st theory: Build a bigger base of bowlers by promoting bowling in new ways to increase league members.

2nd theory: Build a stronger league structure with the Classic League on a sport shot being the ultimate goal of every bowler (returning integrity first, then worrying about building a base later)

Many people have posted in other threads that they believe the 1st theory is the best one. I want to emphatically argue that the 2nd theory is the way to go, although both can happen simultaneously in my opinion.

I have seen new bowlers come into leagues every year, and every year those same bowlers usually quit at the conclusion of the league season. It doesn't make sense to me to bring new people into a broken system. Yes we need more promotion, but we need more of a plan than just "bring new bowlers in". We need to restructure what we are bringing them into!

In other words, the system needs to be one that promotes upward movement. Just like when you go to work, if you have nowhere to go and every move is only lateral, what do you have to look forward to? Many jobs have become this way, and that is why many people change jobs frequently.

Let's look at a top to bottom view of how it should be done.

Top of the Mountain: The highest goal of league bowling should be to bowl in the area's Classic Scratch Sport League. Lots of money, the areas best bowlers, and real team bowling would be the characteristics of this league. This should be the league that sponsors line up to put their money into.

2nd Highest League: Perhaps this league also bowls on a sport condition, butthe bowlers in this league can't quite compete with the top dawgs. They bowl in this league and work on their game so that they can get to the top one day.

Middle Ground: These leagues can either be sport or THS, although I think THS should be gotten rid of completely. That is down the road yet, so these leagues will largely be house shots for now. These are the leagues we need to worry about. We cannot give them any sponsor money, or people will continue to flock to these leagues as they do now. If there is a way to limit the pots, then that would be good too. This should just be the next step up from recreational leagues. A good place to jump in and find some good competition, but not enough money to really make any real competitive type person to want to stay here for very long. These leagues have the potential to be the most fun, because people will be bowling to win and to make a name for themselves to be looked at by the top 2 tiers of leagues. Prove you can win, and maybe you're ready for the next level!

Beginner Leagues: 100% handicap! Offer coaching and instruction to these bowlers. Offer a good discount on a new bowling ball. New bowlers get to learn together. NO JACKPOTS! Offer awards on most improved from beginning to end, and for 2nd year bowlers who improve over last year. These leagues are for people who want to further their game so they can move up the ladder soon.

Recreational Leagues: Again, 100% handicap! These leagues are for people who don't care about competitive bowling. I have no problem with the sport being a recreation, but as you can see above, we also need to make an attempt to make bowling a real sport as well. This league here is just for people who want to get drunk and bowl around other people who have the same goal. Usually, this is the type of league where young men and women get together to listen to loud music and flirt with each other all night. hahaha. How is that a bad thing?

I believe this basic structure is how bowling should exist everywhere. Obviously, some levels might either not exist or exist on much smaller levels if we're talking about a small town. And obviously there might be 2 or more Top of the Mountain type leagues if it is a big city like Detroit or Chicago. But I think you get the idea. I believe in an "upward pull". That is, if we build the structure of leagues making the top league in the area the one with all of the money and the best bowlers, then that top league will pull new bowlers in at each level. Bowlers will constantly want to move up the ladder into the more competitive leagues, but some will find contentment with good competition in the middle leagues. Not everybody bowls to win money, so many will stay in the middle where they can compete against other like themselves (no top dawgs).

What do you guys and gals think?
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2004, 08:33:34 AM »

I suppose I just disagree with you T-God. I've seen it with my sport tournaments and with people who bowl on sport shots in general. Anybody that bowls on any sport pattern over a period of time becomes a better bowler. The proof is in the pudding.

I agree that sport bowling isn't the final answer, but it is the best we have right now. Many of us here agree that the purest form of bowling will exist when the bowler is the only variable. That means the same basic bowling balls used by all (or at least very limited), the same shot for the leflt and right side, and a fair lane condition that doesn't promote huge amounts of area around your target that will get you to the pocket.

This is all down the road yet. Sport bowling is absolutely heading in the right direction, and the more we get on that bandwagon, the more we'll be able to get into the condition I've explained above.
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

ten pin killler · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2004, 09:13:26 AM »

I can see the points being made and most all of them are viable. However, league bowling in our area is down so much now as it is that having all of these different skill level leagues will hurt the proprietors as well as the current base of league bowlers in that you would have 3-4 team leagues. We have 6 centers in our area. None of them are filling up their leagues. Its very alarming.

I bowl both of my leagues in the lowest scoring house in the area. There is no "funnel" to the pocket there. I occasionally bowl as a sub or in tourneys at the other higher scoring houses and I do score higher there. I think that league bowling should be fun not exasperating. If the demand for a more challenging shot is there then there should be a league for this made available for those who wish to do so. Lets face it, not everyone wants to invest the time and money that others do in perfecting their game. The average "Joe" bowlers shouldnt be penalized by doing away with the THS.

The bottom line, I think, that most people want is the elimination of sand-bagging. The only way i see in doing this is to make handicaps a smaller percentage of a smaller scratch number........like say 70% of 200 versus these ridiculus 90% of 220-230 etc. Also for city/state/national tournaments, go with the highest average of say the last 5 years versus only 1-2 years.

As far as laying out shots that put areas of the lane "out of bounds", i dont think that is the answer either. The whole lane is there to bowl on.........the left and right gutters are the out of bounds. If you are wanting to do away with dry wood to the outside then why even have dry backends? I think the point I am trying to make is........you can condition the lanes to where there is no shot for anyone,......but why? and where do you draw the line on making a shot available and even better.......who makes this decision???

TPK

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2004, 09:36:56 AM »

Good points made by all.

Bob, I think people will regulate themselves though. They will want to get into the higher leagues because that is where the money will be.

One point I'd like to make is one that I must not be making clear enough. It is mainly in answer to the whole "demand" concept. I hear people say if there's no demand for it, then it won't fly.

Make no mistake about what I am talking about here. We need to change the way bowlers think!!! Bowling is in fact in decline right now, and in order for any of my plans to work, we need to change the mentality that exists today. And IT CAN HAPPEN!!! People didn't always think the way they do now which is proof that the overall mentality of bowlers can indeed change.

Pin-chaser made the good point that my theory isn't one that might work immediately, but perhaps a 2-3 years down the road. We need some goals and some direction for our sport to go, and there is currently no direction at all.

Bob hit it right on the head though with the junior programs. My only concern with Bob's adult structuring by average is that it promotes bagging. If there are tournaments and leagues where people can win lots of money by averaging less than 180, then people will sandbag to get under that 180. One needs to look no further than Metro Detroit, the sandbagging capital of the world! This is why I think it's important to promote scratch bowling at the highest level, and make that the place where all of the money is. Do we really want to promote bowling as an income to a 180 average bowler on a THS? People play basketball because they enjoy playing. People play tennis because they enjoy playing. So why does money have to be the driving force behind bowling in a league where everybody averages 180 or less?

So looking back at what's been said, perhaps we need to do all of these things mentioned in this thread together.

1) Coaching--Both educate bowlers on the importance of a fair playing condition, and coach bowlers on such topics as solid fundamentals, reading the lanes, and ball selection. These services should be offered to ALL new bowlers who are interested in joining leagues. Get them excited about bowling!

2) Strenghten the Junior Programs--By offering a solid structure that keeps the kids interested as they progress. Looking around the Flint area (where I bowl), our junior program is extremely well structured. Perhaps this is why Flint is a great bowling town!

3) Work toward a more structured adult league program--Small towns might not have enough bowlers to have a league at every level that I mentioned, but some structure is better than none. Perhaps adjacent small towns can work together to offer a travelling classic league inviting all of the best bowlers from each town.

4) Promote the sport to new people--Build a base of bowlers as many have described. We've seen a lot of good ideas in this forum, but let's keep brainstorming. Fresh, new perspectives are always nice.

That's all I can think of right now. I don't think very many places do all 4 of these things, so what if they did?!?! This is the opportunity that exists out there. Now we just need more people to help make it all a reality, and STOP waiting for our governing bodies to do it for us.
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

iconbud · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2004, 10:06:07 AM »

If bowling is to grow the prices have to become a little more affordable, linage is now over 4 bucks a game! Most of the houses i bowl in are already paid for. It costs a family at least 40 bucks to go out and enjoy our sport for a couple of hours, not to mention if you are trying to practice to get better.
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WHO SAYS BUZZSAWS ARE OVERPRICED, WHAT WOULD YOU PAY FOR PERFECTION?

sheppy335 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2004, 10:20:09 AM »

Teh average golfer never improves in his total career. Only people who put time into there game improve in golf.
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Oil is served Best with fingers!

Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!

Sheppy

T-GOD · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2004, 10:43:16 AM »

TPK,

quote:
you can condition the lanes to where there is no shot for anyone,......but why? and where do you draw the line on making a shot available and even better.......

CORRECT-A-MUNDO..!!

quote:
who makes this decision???

T-GOD

GOAL 1: To return integrity to bowling to make it a real sport once again.

Answer: A. There needs to be a standardized lane condition and equipment. B. There must be a fair shot for everyone. C. We also need a handicap system overhaul.

In the early days of short oil, we had this. Every house was oiled 10 to 10. The dry boards went all the way to the foul line. We were on the right track, but there was too many dry boards, too much of bumper bowling.

Ok, let's eliminate some dry boards and make it 5 to 5, but oil across the lane in the heads.

We need to keep this condition for a long period of time. When the game keeps on changing, we lose good bowlers, because the bowlers who are good, aren't good for very long, then they quit.

There needs to be more stringent friction guidelines for manufacturers. No dull surfaces or sanding of bowling balls. This will help keep the lane condition longer as well as not allowing bowlers to buy hook and/or carry in the box.

What does this accomplish..?

1. Standardization. If you practice in one house, it'll work in the next house reasonably well. You know where the shot is in every house. If you're not scoring well enough, it will encourage practicing. You'll know what to practice and what you practice will work the next time out..!!

2. Less area to play with. Miss too much right, ball goes in the gutter. Miss left and you come in light..!! Now you have out of bounds, for all you sport shot enthusiests. Good bowlers will still have a nice shot to the pocket and be able to score high if they execute.

3. With the standardization of lane conditions and equipment(balls), the handicap system, will for the most part, come to order.

GOAL 2: To increase the number of bowlers in our sport.

Answer: Now that things are fair, bowlers will come back, or at least the ones that we have won't quit.

1. Shorten league seasons. They're way too long for todays society. Split the season up, with 16 or 12 week leagues. New teams can come in at the end of the 12 or 16 week league.

2. Build a strong youth program. Because we have a standard lane condition, and the good bowlers aren't quitting, they'll be more encouraged to coach, and stay with it for longer periods of time.

3. Bowlers running bowling centers. It's sad to see AMF trying to run bowling centers like McDonalds. You can't run a golf course without golfers, and you can't run bowling centers without bowlers..!! HIRE RETIRED PROFESSIONAL BOWLERS TO RUN BOWLING CENTERS..!!

These are a few of my suggestions that WILL bring the sport of bowling to a higher level. =:^D

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2004, 11:02:23 AM »

hmmm, standardization, huh?

I find it intriguing that bowling was at its peak when every center had a different shot. They sprayed the oil onto the lanes and dressing the lanes was in fact an art, not a science. Today, most of the good centers have bought or are buying the new Kegel machines that come with programs to run for best results. The result? Most centers have the same shot!!! With this trend, our sport's popularity has declined!

T-God, much of the other stuff you said I agree with, but the standardization thing really scares me.

When I go to Cincinnati in a few weeks to bowl the Hoinke, guess where I'm going to go eat? NOT McDonald's. NOT Applebee's. NOT A CHAIN RESTAURANT. I want to go to the local sports bar, or the local grill. When I go to a different town, I want to experience the difference.

The same goes for bowling. When I go to some small town in Northern Michigan, I want to bowl on something different. It makes things interesting. I could go on and on about this, but I think you get my point.
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

Overhand · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2004, 11:03:33 AM »

Good plan, Mich...one nit though in your planning. The definition your using for "THS" seems to be an easy, walled-up shot. Three centers I shoot at here in Colorado offer a real variety of lines. One center IS "shoot right, hook left, go sit down".

But the other two are using a "THS" pattern and the hot shot shooters are NOT tearing them up. Can they hit 240-250 once per set? Sure. 750? Nope, not seeing them do it.

Perhaps a middleground where THS is tightened up rather than simply going right to sport shot?
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It is by Caffeine alone that I sent my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed. The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by Caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

T-GOD · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2004, 11:58:10 AM »

MichiganB, bowling lanes are all standard in size, length and width. They all look the same. Therefore, they should all play the same, as in basketball or tennis.

We don't need someone "screwing around" with conditions, to favor a particular bowler. But, that's what you get when things aren't standardized. Once things are standardized, then we can have super stars..!!

And, if we keep the conditions the same long enough, we'll have these stars around for a long time. This is what we need.

When we have the same lane condition, everyone will have the same chance to get better. That's integrity..!! =:^D

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #25 on:** October 20, 2004, 03:39:24 PM »

T-God, so Barry Bonds is not a super star? What about Mark McGwire or Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle...etc.

Every baseball stadium has different specs, yet baseball has more stars than any other sport around (ok, that is arguable, but you get my point).

Bones, you make a valid point, but my point is that the decline is still in tact. Every year our sport loses bowlers at every level including recreational league bowlers and competitive league bowlers. Also, if you look back at everything we are talking about in this thread, nobody is saying that we want to make everything into sport bowling right now, although my opinion is that it should be that way eventually.

The decline tells us that bowling is not as attractive as it used to be. We're trying to look at the big picture as to why it might not be as attractive. This is why we talk about sport bowling and such, because we believe that sport bowling might bring the fun back to bowling. Just because the masses seem to want the easy shot doesn't mean they couldn't be swayed to the good side. haha. Seriously though, people choose the easiest houses because they were trained to think that way. So now that is all they know.

It is my opinion that if we can train them to think a new way, that more challenging and fair conditions are the way to go, then our sport will keep more of its participants and attract many new ones. If I went out and bought a center tomorrow, I am sure that nearly all of my leagues would bowl on cake shots, but I would promote sport bowling big time. I might even put sport shots out on Friday and Saturday nights for the open bowlers to get them used to it. They don't notice a difference!

--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

T-GOD · « **Reply #26 on:** October 20, 2004, 05:29:20 PM »

MB,

quote:
Every baseball stadium has different specs, yet baseball has more stars than any other sport around (ok, that is arguable, but you get my point).

Yes, every stadium has different specs, BUT, the different specs don't effect the flight of the ball..!! If Barry hits the ball squarely on the noggon, it will fly the same distance no matter what stadium he's playing in.

Now we have to exclulde mother nature and the elements, like the wind, for all these examples, because mother nature won't play a part in bowling.

The same goes for golf. It doesn't matter what the course looks like, if you swing the club the same with the same speed and hit the ball squarely with the same timing, it will go straight and the same distance every time..!!

In Basketball, if you shoot the ball the same way, with the same speed and touch, it will go in the basket the same way in every Basketball arena.

In tennis, if you swing the racket the same, and hit the ball at the same angle, the ball will always go in the same direction and hit the same spot on the court.

But, in bowling, you can walk to the line the same way, same timing, exact same release, same lift, turn and speed, BUT, depending on the oil, the ball will do totally different things.

That's the difference and the problem with bowling and/or lane conditions..!! =:^D

pin-chaser · « **Reply #27 on:** October 20, 2004, 07:01:58 PM »

I agree T-God and offer that because of the difference in oil patterns differnet skills are needed and that allows different bowlers to create an advantage over others.

What is needed is standardization that requires the same physical skills.

--------------------

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IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #28 on:** October 21, 2004, 02:55:25 AM »

When I throw a bowling ball down the lane, it is going to go 60 feet every single time. The oil will change its direction just as where a golf ball lands will change its direction. If it lands in a bunker, it's going to stick right into the sand and not go too much further. Playing the wind and green tilt in golf is no different than playing the oil pattern in bowling, don't kid yourself there.

We can do this all day, but your logic is full of holes.

We simply can agree to disagree. I personally love going from center to center and having no clue what to expect. There is a level that is ridiculous, like when I go to a real small town and throw a house ball that hooks in the gutter. That's sort of annoying. But for the most part, so what???

I will say that I've been thinking about your standard lane condition a lot as I can see how it would allow the non-bowler to see the different between Walter Ray and Joe Bowler. And I'm still thinking about it! It sounds interesting, but I still contend that this trend of making everything the same is exactly what is destroying our sport. It's also sort of strange that with those trends, the bowling balls have become more and more different.

Playing the oil patterns, the lanes, the pin carry, and the overall environment of a bowling center is what bowling is all about. While yes the game is broken, the broken mentality is far more damaging than the broken game could ever be!

I have made my point and will stop beating the horse here. There is more explanation to my theory, but it's just going to have to wait until I can write a book or something, because it just includes a lot of other factors that would take up too much time and space here.

I'll keep thinking about your idea T-God. But please think of mine as well. I think we have both made valid points here.
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

SrKegler · « **Reply #29 on:** October 21, 2004, 03:22:14 AM »

I shudder every time I hear the word "standardization". Whose standards are we going to go by.

Lets say the perfect shot requires a ball speed of 17 mph, 250 revs, 15 board at the arrows out to the 9 board. I guess the guys that really crank the ball can learn to lower their revs, the higher speed bowlers can slow theirs down.

Not everyone may have the strength or physical ability to throw the ball that fast. Are they just S.O.L.

Bon Hanson had the best idea, limiting the amount of mistake room a bowler has.

Bottom line is no matter what type of condition that is put out the underlying lane charecterists will still make every house play different.

I doubt if you can even find a pair of lanes in any alley that play exactly the same way, let alone trying to put out a standard shot across the nation.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #30 on:** October 21, 2004, 10:51:03 AM »

Limiting mistake room is exactly providing more defined standardization. Today basically anything goes. And because of this, "flingers" more concerned with revs and speed create an unfair advantage against others who are more capable of consistant releases and targeting.

Standardization that limits the "power" of todays bowling balls and there ability to create more "area".

This debate has certianly opened my eyes and broadened my view about this topic. Again, thanks to all for sharing and teaching me.

However, I dont believe in any other sport has the skill required for excellance deminished as much as in bowling. Just because we can stir the bowling ball, and just because we can create pins that topple easier and just because we can create "explosive" bowling balls does not mean we should for the "sport" of bowling. However the industry did those things and we allowed it and bought it. The question of how we return integrity back into bowling is the subject. Certinaly addressing these things (even over a long period of time) will move us in that direction. Call it "standardization" or any else, we all seem to recognize the fact that while it is fun to shoot scores it is not fun to loose when others simply bowl poorly and beat us because of "technology". This skill should be in the bowler and not in the technology.
--------------------

Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

Author Topic: Two Theories (Read 4412 times)

MichiganBowling

Two Theories

MichiganBowling

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ten pin killler

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MichiganBowling

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iconbud

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sheppy335

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T-GOD

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MichiganBowling

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Overhand

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T-GOD

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MichiganBowling

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T-GOD

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pin-chaser

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MichiganBowling

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SrKegler

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pin-chaser

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