Author Topic: How to catch a sandbagger? (Read 3656 times)

ksucat · « **on:** January 26, 2004, 10:42:18 PM »

I'm involved in a small tournament every year that lately has had an individual win a disproportionate share of the prize fund. This year, this person comes in with a 162 average and shoots 490 in Singles, 690 in Doubles and over 700 in Team. If this were just a one time occurrence, I could believe that it was just his day. However, he has pretty well dominated this tournament for 3 years now all with a low average. His book average was verified from league last year, but how does one go about finding a tournament average.

I don't recall the rule number, but there is an ABC rule that says that if a tournament average of at least 21 games over the past 12 months is 15 pins higher than the book average, then you can be rerated. The problem with this rule is that I can't think of any way to find out a bowlers tournament average unless that bowler is honest enough to provide it. I find it seriously doubtful if a sandbagger will be honest enough to rerate himself based on his tournament average. We've been talking with some other executive directors of larger tournaments, but none of them have any good solutions either.

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:00:51 PM »

Me thinks an angry mob confronting him in the parking lot would solve your troubles!

I would think there would be some archive in the ABC organization which would have this info, I just don't know where to look. Seems that any tournament director should have access to such information and should not have to rely solely on asking the bowler to be honest. That'd be like making the police go door to door and asking if you exceeded the speed limit on a regular basis. Good luck with this - keep us posted. Everyone but a fellow sandbagger despises this type of individual.

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9~

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:25:51 PM »

I thought RE-RATING could only be done if it was specified in the TOURNAMENT RULES?
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

BadShot · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:29:11 PM »

i would think that if this has been an occurrence for three years at this tournament, the director should have the authority to rerate the bowler based on previous scores bowled in that tournament. i've heard of bowlers being rerated on this basis before. good luck, and beat his arse!!!
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That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .

TheBowlingKid25 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2004, 02:53:01 PM »

I agree with 9~ about the mob! Then sodomize him!! ..oops.. I think the politically correct filter missed that one!

Im the opposite though, do good in league then bad in tourney's. Whats that called? ..oh yea..........choking

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15 years and still going strong! 15 years old that is!

DA DA DAAAAAA!! UP UP AND AWAY! TO THE BAT CAVE ROBIN!The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess

ksucat · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:44:07 PM »

Thanks for the replies. We have thought about rerating him, but it is my understanding that this year is done since we did not do it ahead of his participating. I can agree with this because the bowler should have the right to refuse the rerate if it is solely based on the tournament director's discretion. We obviously will be doing this next year, even if it means refusing this individuals entry fee. My thoughts are that it is much better for the tournament to lose a team or two full of cheaters if you can restore integrity for the rest.

I still would like to know if there is any way to find a bowler's tournament average? There should be some other way to find these sandbaggers than the tournament director good ole boy system.

ksucat · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:50:53 PM »

Forgot to mention that this 162 average bowler also got in all the brackets, scratch and handicap. He was talking to me in the bracket line about his 690 and 700 series like they were no big deal. He was actually embarassed about the 490 series. That's his frickin' average! I didn't know who he was at that time, so I didn't give it much thought. I just didn't recognize him from the previous year. A legitimate 162 average bowler normally would not give away money in scratch brackets.

Tex · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2004, 11:30:18 PM »

As a tournament director it is a problem that I believe we all face. One that is so hard to catch and harder to prove. My solution is to track averages of all participants in my tournament. If I see a trend develop I can then make a decision on rerate in advance. In the cases that I have inforced a rerate I have had some take it and bowl anyway, some said OK one year and no way after that. They did not bowl. I don't like to turn down anyones entry, it is bottom line money out of my pocket. But, it has been my hope that by running as clean a tournament as possible, I will get more entries in the long run. Unfortunately we have seen a small loss in recent years, but not as much as other tournaments I know of. I depend on bowlers using correct averages, that I can verify for all winners. The tournament average question is right up there with the 10 pin rule, impossible or virtually impossible to verify. Thus why I dropped the 10 pin rule, if I can not verify everyone then I can't penalize the few I can. It is also why I say in writting that I will rerate based on tournament average from my event.

Speaking of the ABC rule on tournament averages. The ABC does not have any tournament averages, other than their own. I think that all sanctioned tournaments should report all averages, but can you imagine the work involved at the national office. Maybe they could offer tournament software at a great price or free that can have an automatic upload at the end. Then we could have the 12 month average listed on the "Find a Member" area of the Bowl.com website.

David Lee Yskes · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2004, 05:29:02 AM »

Well i have heard of tournaments like the ABT rerating bowlers who come in with thier SO CALLED league average and shooting big scores over and over.

I am not sure what a association can do about sandbaggers unless its stated in the tournament rules.

Now on a personal basis, i had to deal with a sandbagger for 3 yrs, only cuz i couldnt get anyone to replace him, but this yr I DID!!!! cuz even though this guy had a low 200avg he would shoot anywhere from 700-800+ on a regular basis.

And yes he too was coaching a couple guys on my team who had 150averages to tank shots if the team was way up on the other team going into the last couple frames, cuz he would bring these guys to Handicap Tournaments and win.

But last yr i got really sick of his crap cuz he would do 1 or 2 things, shoot a 250+game off the bat, and then shoot two 170games, or shoot a 150game, and then shoot two 230games, he would always barely get his average.

Or you could always tell he would intentionally miss a shot cuz he would be playing 3rdarrow on left side(him being a lefty) and it would be with like a FREAK or some big hooking ball, and then he would throw the ball right up board 5 and it would go through the nose.

Or he would shoot a 140game with a high particle ball, and then bring out his WhiteDOT and shoot two 230+games.

So for anyone who lives in Michigan if you happen to see a guy named NICK RODRIGUEZ enter your tournament, u will see what i am talking about.
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" Lift Your Skirt Grab Your Balls and Learn How to Bowl "

tenpinspro · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2004, 06:02:54 AM »

Ksucat,

I am also a tournament dir for our club and we do confront individuals even suspected of bagging. When we receive the entry, we notify them immediately that they will be adjusted(not rerate, written in our rules) in our tournament if they want to participate. If not, don't bowl. My experience has shown that by doing this, I may lose his entry and team but I gain 3-4 more from somewhere else because they know I try to run a clean tourny the best I can. If someone new slips by one year, we put them on the list and get them next year..NEVER twice. There are also many individuals who take a few years off and try to come back lower but we've been lucky that I've been a very active bowler in the area and I know most of them and we do the same to them also.

The only way I know of tracking an individuals tournament avg is to call locally to those who have held 8 gamers, sweepers, and whatever tournaments and request copies of their scores. Don't you enforce the $300 in one tourny within 18 month rule?? You can get to a bowler without even knowing his scores if he's cashed for $300 or more and DQ him if he doesn't report it. Hope some of this helps...

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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
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MichiganBowling · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2004, 05:28:38 PM »

Obviously nobody that has posted in this thread is from Detroit...

Detroit (the bowling capital of the world) is full of sandbaggers. There are approximately 90 bowling centers in the Metro Detroit area, just to give you an idea of how big bowling is in Detroit.

The Mid States Masters Bowling Association has held tournaments for like 40 years or so, maybe longer, maybe not. Point is, they've been goin strong for a long long time. Currently, they have 3 different average divisions--205 and under, 217 and under and 229 and under (I think that's right). They've had 2 or 3 divisions for as long as I can remember.

In Metro Detroit, it is common knowledge that A LOT of the people that bowl in that association sandbags. It's been going on for years, and they still haven't found a way to stop it. So they try to monitor it as closely as they can. What ends up happening is they boot people out, or rerate them into another division, and some of the people they suspected were sandbagging were in fact not. All this does is make everybody mad and paranoid.

Metro Detroit also has leagues that are structured this way...200 and under leagues, 1000 and under (team average) leagues, and so on. The biggest money league in Detroit, with I think 44 teams or so, is a 200 and under league. Just recently I found out that one of the best amateurs in the country bowls in that league. This guy won the High Roller out in Vegas just 2 years ago, yet he bowls in that 200 and under league. He said he found a "loophole" in the rules that got him in. So on a weekly basis, he walks in there and drops about $500+ in pots, and walks out somedays with $5000-$10,000!!!

A lot can be learned by watching what goes on in Detroit. The whole idea of trying ot make things fair just seems to backfire every time

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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

tenpinspro · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2004, 05:47:26 PM »

Sounds like a bad situation in Detroit but if you have someone you feel that should not be in a certain league based on avg, there is always something that can be done. The easiest way to keep baggers out of high money leagues or tournys is to simply bar them from the pots. The bagging is driven by the greed of making money correct? Well, bar this high roller player from the pots and see if he doesn't jump to another league. ABC does not approve of gambling, therefore they will not intervene in a situation such as this. The person/persons running the pots hold sole discretion. Understood that volume may be a problem for you there but it can start somewhere, otherwise it'll continue to grow out of control. Sorry to hear about that...
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

Author Topic: How to catch a sandbagger? (Read 3656 times)

ksucat

How to catch a sandbagger?

9andaWiggle

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

JOE FALCO

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

BadShot

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

TheBowlingKid25

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

ksucat

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

ksucat

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

Tex

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

David Lee Yskes

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

tenpinspro

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

MichiganBowling

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?

tenpinspro

Re: How to catch a sandbagger?